PRO: Zodiac mailed a letter to the LA Times and referred to the paper as "The Times."

No one in the bay area reads the LA Times and if one mentioned "The Times" most would think they were referring to the NY Times.

Only people from Southern California would call it "The Times." Ross was even in The LA Times in 1959.

PRO: Zodiac mailed a letter to the LA Times and referred to the paper as "The Times."

No one in the bay area reads the LA Times and if one mentioned "The Times" most would think they were referring to the NY Times.

Only people from Southern California would call it "The Times." Ross was even in The LA Times in 1959.

I actually don’t think that’s true, I recall the LA Times had a massive circulation all over CA.

March 3, 1977 the FBI had requested copies of all the Zodiac letters. Even in 1977 the bureau was still poking around in the Zodiac case. The top psycholinguistics expert in the country, Dr. Murray S. Miron, working from nineteen of the killer’s letters, came to these conclusions about Zodiac in a secret Syracuse Research Institute report:

Zodiac has had some exposure to our training in elementary cryptography"
CON: No evidence Ross was into cryptography. (a library book is all he needed)
*This can now be changed to PRO 11/14/17

is a Caucasian unmarried male in his twenties.
PRO: Ross turned 28 in 1969. Never married

He is no more than high school educated,
PRO: Ross never got very far in College

reads little,
CON: No way to know. But he did work in a library.

is isolated, withdrawn, and unrelated in his habits,
PRO: From what we know it sounds true. Ross would write alone in the YMCA.

quiet and unprepossessing in disposition"
PRO: He was not a popular guy. He would sit alone like a statue on the library wall.

Miron felt the killer had good eyesight
No information.

and was " a discretionary illiterate, " someone who prefers " the passiveness of pictures, T V, and the movies" and does not even have a library of " cheap pocket books."
PRO: From what Allen says, Ross was into movies.

Zodiac, in Miron’s opinion, "would have spent much time in movie houses specializing in sado-masochistic and occult eroticism"
No information.

and was " a borderline psychotic…
PRO: He was in and out of mental hospitals.

His communications display the characteristic signs of magical thinking, and narcissistic infantilism typical of the schizophrenic.
PRO: Ross is believed to have been a schizophrenic.

"Zodiac rather well fits the pattern of what might be called pseudoreactive schizophrenia…Such individuals engage in their bizarre behavior as sort of a cover up for their underlying and more hidden psychosis. They can be expected to display wide swings of emotion from intense euphoria to deepest depression.

"He lives the secret life of seclusion and presents to the world a mask of containment, pleasantness and ordinariness."
PRO: Jon S. said Ross was a gentle soul and would never harm anyone.

Miron thought thee December 1969 letter to Melvin Belli contained hints of the depression that " frequently overtakes him… It is not unlikely that in one of those virulent depressions, such individuals could commit suicide."
PRO: It is believed Ross died because he was grossly obese by 1977. Over eating is linked to depression.

Because of Zodiac’s concern with control, Miron felt he would shun the "disinhibiting effects of alcohol," and would avoid norman sexual contacts with women."
PRO: Allen talked about how Ross could not have a real relationship with a woman.

I remember noticing that eyesight remark before. I wonder what he based that on.

Some might disagree with the point about books versus TV/movies. I certainly think Z was into movies but I think he had read a book or two in his life as well. His writing style indicates this, albeit vaguely – he expresses himself like someone who has picked up certain ways of…expressing himself, and this he would have done by reading (there’s hardly any other way).

Pros:

Bailey: "He really took pride in being threateningly off beat and capable of anything."

And so did/was Zodiac. Makes me think of changing his m.o. when killing Stine, or threatening to kill children coming out of a school bus, among other things.

Bailey’s description of Ross’s personality really fits Zodiac well, even though she never mentions Zodiac.

Smokie

Pros:

Bailey: "He really took pride in being threateningly off beat and capable of anything."

And so did/was Zodiac. Makes me think of changing his m.o. when killing Stine, or threatening to kill children coming out of a school bus, among other things.

Bailey’s description of Ross’s personality really fits Zodiac well, even though she never mentions Zodiac.

Smokie

Interesting Smokie

Morf and the others here have done great work in developing info on this suspect. I still have a problem with his height and weight, which seems significantly off from almost all possible Z descriptions, including Officer Fouke. But witness descriptions are often unreliable, and may vary depending on angle, lighting, etc. And this has already been debated.

One problem and one suggestion I have. The 4 hairs found in a blood clot in Cheri Jo bates are very likely, IMO almost certainly, from her killer. The one problem is the FBI report (obtained by Morf) describes those hairs as "brown". I have seen Ross Sullivan’s hair described as "blonde". Was it blonde in 1966? Previous reports on the hair found in Bates hand had described it as "light brown" or "sandy blonde". Those were incorrect as the FBI report simply reads "brown". I think that is a problem worth noting and considering. On the other hand, hair color can change with age, exposure to sunlight, dyes, etc. So I don’t say it is insurmountable, but it does appear to be a conflict. See http://www.zodiackillersite.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=92 and the page here at the bottom.

The suggestion is this. If the brother truly thinks Ross is innocent, and knows he cannot be Z because he was hospitalized for some of the Z crimes, then he should be willing to donate a hair sample. They obtained mtDNA from the hairs in Bates hand. The brother of Ross will have the exact same mtDNA (maternal DNA) as Ross did. If he gives a sample and that sample has mtDNA that does NOT match the Bates case sample, that effectively clears Ross from the Bates murder. And if Ross did not do the Bates murder, I think that pretty much clears him of being Z, as the main reason he was considered a Z suspect in the first place was because of the multiple incriminating factors pointing to him as a very good Bates suspect.

If the mtDNA matches then along with all the other evidence it makes a damning case for him as the Bates killer and would energize the investigation against him as Zodiac. It would mark the first scientific match to any suspect in any Z murder. A major breakthrough.

mtDNA tests are not expensive. Since the brother does not like you Morf, but did talk to the reporter, maybe he would agree to give a hair sample to the reporter for testing.

Ross’s brother has reddish hair. Hair can change over ones life from blonde to dark blonde to reddish. Doesn’t prove anything, but worth pointing out.

Right. That is why I asked if Ross had blonde hair in 1966. I heard it described as blonde in 1966. Not saying its definitive just one thing to consider.

More importantly if the brother donates a hair sample Ross can be strongly ruled in or out for the Bates murder. Unlike the other Z crimes (as far as we know for sure) there is mtDNA in the Bates case.

It doesn’t change to dark brown though unless you want to talk hair dye or wig at LB. In that case, why? Why would he do that?

IF Ross was Zodiac, I don’t think he killed Cheri. Unless he dyed his hair, wore different shoes and had skinny boy wrists.

I think sometimes people fail to realize there could have easily been other factors which have ALREADY cleared Ross. There may be no need for DNA tests at all.

I’m not saying that doesn’t give any one the right to investigate whomever they wish.

It doesn’t change to dark brown though unless you want to talk hair dye or wig at LB. In that case, why? Why would he do that?

IF Ross was Zodiac, I don’t think he killed Cheri. Unless he dyed his hair, wore different shoes and had skinny boy wrists.

I think sometimes people fail to realize there could have easily been other factors which have ALREADY cleared Ross. There may be no need for DNA tests at all.

I’m not saying that doesn’t give any one the right to investigate whomever they wish.

FBI didn’t describe it as "dark brown" only "brown."

It’s important to note that I remember reading on Tom Voight’s site a letter from one of the police detectives in Riverside who gave the reasons why they believe their candidate, BB, was the murderer. One of the reasons was that he had blonde hair and the hair sample they had was blonde.

AK Wrote, " The brother of Ross will have the exact same mtDNA (maternal DNA) as Ross did. If he gives a sample and that sample has mtDNA that does NOT match the Bates case sample, that effectively clears Ross from the Bates murder. And if Ross did not do the Bates murder, I think that pretty much clears him of being Z, as the main reason he was considered a Z suspect in the first place was because of the multiple incriminating factors pointing to him as a very good Bates suspect"

I disagree, there are some of us who think it’s very possible, Z didn’t murder Cheri, merely wrote the letters & desk in her case. My case against Ross, is he looked exactly like the sketch, down to the Widow’s peak, and we can place him in the RCC Library, and even know that he too wrote morbid poems. Thus far, it’s the ONLY suspect ever, that we can place in the RCC Library where the desk was found, and he looks exactly like the composite. From there, it’s filling in the blanks.

I see your point Morf. Yes if Z did not kill Bates but merely as an opportunist took credit than RS would still be a good Z suspect for the reasons you mention. I had not thought of it that way but I now agree with your point.

My larger point is an mtDNA match would, combined with the other significant evidence, essentially prove to most that Ross killed Bates. And I think that in turn would ignite a fire storm of interest and attention on him as a Z suspect. He would instantly go to the top of the list as the best Z suspect in the eyes of the message board Z world, the press and even the police.

Agree that a DNA comparison would be ideal. But would RPD work with civilians?

Didn’t they submit DNA on the Zodiac Mystery Quest episode? Seems like they were left in the dark after they submitted.

Agree that a DNA comparison would be ideal. But would RPD work with civilians?

Didn’t they submit DNA on the Zodiac Mystery Quest episode? Seems like they were left in the dark after they submitted.

Mystery Quest was SFPD and they no longer have confidence the stamp DNA is actually from Z.

What the RPD detective told me was that Cheri was killed by (1) someone local (2) who likely knew her. If Morf can show that (and I think he can) I think RPD (or FBI) would compare the mtDNA.