We assume no medical diagnosis in commentary herein, that said, it has been openly speculated throughout the forum, with supporting factoids, this suspect was indeed treated as a patient with onset schizophrenic behaviors.

It is at the top of many lists to lock this.

We assume no medical diagnosis in commentary herein, that said, it has been openly speculated throughout the forum, with supporting factoids, this suspect was indeed treated as a patient with onset schizophrenic behaviors.

It is at the top of many lists to lock this.

Ross = fact. He was treated as a schizophrenic.

Zodiac = assumptions. By some. Until they catch the guy, it’s all a guess and many assumptions are based off of what may be writing based off of Zodiac’s smoke and mirrors.

The youth with the " Guns Blazing" is listed as Ralph Sullivan?????
It’s someone else or it’s a typo.

Has anyone confirmed that’s Ross Sullivan?

He sure looks younger, smaller and skinnier than Ross in the 1959 photo in LA Times, which is 1 year to 18 months from the time this photo was taken.

We also need to remember that the portion of the street where Fouke saw Zodiac walking is slight downhill. That will naturally alter one’s gait to some extent (usually to a more "stumbling" direction). So, I don’t think too many conclusion should be drawn from that.

On the other hand, it would be interesting to hear if one of the underage witnesses ever mentioned anything about Zodiac’s walk. I’m not sure where I read it, but I do remember reading (hopefully it’s not something Graysmith or someone made up) that the teenage boy witness did run after Zodiac, and caught a glimpse of him before he turned on Jackson street. This boy would have seen Zodiac walk on even surface.

The youth with the " Guns Blazing" is listed as Ralph Sullivan?????
It’s someone else or it’s a typo.

Has anyone confirmed that’s Ross Sullivan?

He sure looks younger, smaller and skinnier than Ross in the 1959 photo in LA Times, which is 1 year to 18 months from the time this photo was taken.

It’s him. He is listed as part of that talent show along with the director of ‘Deja Vive’ who is not pictured. Typo. No Ralph Sullivan. If dates line up (and the ones here in forum do) he was brand new at school and scored leading role as Bad Billie.

We assume no medical diagnosis in commentary herein, that said, it has been openly speculated throughout the forum, with supporting factoids, this suspect was indeed treated as a patient with onset schizophrenic behaviors.

It is at the top of many lists to lock this.

Ross = fact. He was treated as a schizophrenic.

Zodiac = assumptions. By some. Until they catch the guy, it’s all a guess and many assumptions are based off of what may be writing based off of Zodiac’s smoke and mirrors.

Is this from P.I. notes elsewhere in forum, I was not sure that was ultimately conclusive based on some members questioning…?

We also need to remember that the portion of the street where Fouke saw Zodiac walking is slight downhill. That will naturally alter one’s gait to some extent (usually to a more "stumbling" direction). So, I don’t think too many conclusion should be drawn from that.

I’ll play devil’s advocate. Downtown San Francisco is full of inclines and declines. Officer Fouke would be used to seeing pedestrians navigate such sidewalks in the course of his daily activities. And Fouke’s trained eye specifically honed in on the unusual gate of the white male: "lumbering gait, stumbling along like a semi-limp."

I will submit that "stumbling along like a semi-limp" is not normal San Francisco pedestrian behavior — even when walking slightly downhill.

It should also be noted that Fouke’s observations helped contribute to the revised Stine suspect sketch. This sketch looks virtually identical to 1959 photos of Ross Sullivan — photos that didn’t surface publicly until circa 2014 — some 45 years after Fouke’s observations.

I just don’t think we can dismiss Fouke’s observations so easily. Reportedly, Ross may have been institutionalized as early as 1961 (per his absence from RCC). If Ross was being treated for mental problems — perhaps schizophrenia — in 1961, it is valid for us to determine if 8 years later, in 1969, he was already suffering from gait irregularities and mild Parkinsonism hand tremors that are known to afflict schizophrenics.

Fouke wasn’t involved with the revised composite.

Fouke wasn’t involved with the revised composite.

Thanks for clarifying. Did Fouke not have input on either Stine composite?

An excerpt from the article Motor Symptoms and Schizophrenia

https://www.karger.com/Article/Fulltext/339456

The prevalence rates of motor symptoms in schizophrenia are surprisingly high, and recent studies indicate a possible pathobiology. In particular, the development and maturation of the human motor system appears to be closely linked to the emergence of motor symptoms observed in schizophrenia. Post-mortem and neuroimaging results demonstrated aberrant structure and function of premotor and motor cortices, basal ganglia, thalamus, and the connecting white matter tracts.

We have shown that several components of the motor system are affected by schizophrenia, including white matter and basal ganglia. Motor circuits mature during postnatal brain development [215] and in some instances, motor development is delayed in children who are later diagnosed with schizophrenia [224,228]. Therefore, the development of motor circuits may be critical in schizophrenia. In particular, deficient migration and function of GABAergic interneurons, as well as impaired mRNA expression related to myelination, are thought to focally alter the brain in schizophrenia [198]. Similar local impairments in motor circuit components may represent the weak link in the chain of this important brain system, rendering it dysfunctional under stress.

The symptoms range from mild and basic disturbances such as hypokinetic and hyperkinetic movement disorders, i.e. parkinsonism and abnormal involuntary movements. In addition, higher motor functions such as coordination, planning, fine-tuning, and learning of motion sequences may be impaired. Finally, schizophrenia patients demonstrate disturbances in intention or will. The latter might originate from both cognitive and motor deficits, but it has also been connected with the function of the pre-SMA and ACC [114]. We suggest that disturbed volition and initiation of movements in schizophrenia may result from dysfunctions of the premotor cortices and of impaired structural connectivity. In addition, bradykinesia may be due to dysfunctional basal ganglion output on thalamocortical pathways.

Finally, the various motor symptoms in schizophrenia have been demonstrated to be important in treatment [34,240] and rehabilitation [87,240]. Most importantly, motor symptoms may disturb communication, provoking false signals about one’s intentions. The most severe disturbances in communication would be catatonic mutism, negativism, and stupor. However, less pronounced motor disturbances might also affect communication. In fact, parkinsonism in schizophrenia has been shown to alter speech [241], and negative symptoms have been associated with reduced abilities to imitate emotional face expressions and hand gestures [239]. It is further conceivable that symptoms such as dyskinesia or grimacing may disrupt facial emotion expression. Other motor aspects of nonverbal communication such as posture [15,34,35] and gait [34,35,88] are also altered in schizophrenia. Thus, communication disturbances in schizophrenia may not only relate to formal thought disorder [242,243] and affective disturbances [244,245] but also to motor symptoms.

One potential lead indicator that suggests that Ross may have developed schizophrenic motor related issues by the late 1960s is the mysterious behavior that precipitated his February 1968 arrest.

The description in the paper claims the individual (widely agreed to be Ross) "cavorted in the nude in a dazed trance." While one may be inclined to think this may have been a 1960s LSD trip gone bad, the article points out the subject was put on a 72-hour mental hold.

Ross’ behavior sounds like he was in a state of catatonic excitement, consisting of constant purposeless agitation and excitation. This is a subtype of catatonia, a state of psychogenic motor immobility and behavioral abnormality manifested by stupor. Catatonia is closely associated with schizophrenia.

The article morf13 tracked down:

Zodiac gives us another clue to his schizophrenic mental illness in the Cheri Jo Bates confession letter: "I AM NOT SICK. I AM INSANE. BUT THAT WILL NOT STOP THE GAME."

Do any of you guys actually know any schizophrenics?

But first, I think zodiac was saying I am not mentally ill, I am not a sick person, meaning he was not affected by a debilitating mental condition, he was "insane" meaning that he was simply a violent, angry, and homicidal individual.

My sisters husbands brother is schizophrenic, and I have been dealing with those who are affected by schizophrenia for quite some time.

I think it is ridiculous to suggest that zodiac was schizophrenic.

Most schizophrenics can have issues just holding normal conversation with others, they have difficulty holding jobs, and have issues with generating and executing complex plans. they have issues with organization and foresight, and their hallucinations and delusions coupled with rapid emotional change would make executing these crimes, and not slipping up or not getting caught, very very very difficult for a true schizophrenic. Also, as a result of their illness obtaining and owning a gun would be quite difficult. Also having the freedom and time to commit these crimes does not seem fitting for a schizophrenic.

…and while yes, most schizophrenics have obsessions with symbols, I do not see the cipher work, or the letters, being the work of a schizophrenic.

We had a 20 year old guy in CT named Adam Lanza who many professionals in the field of psychiatry say was an undiagnosed paranoid schizophrenic. You can look up what he did in Sandy Hook and check out this link to view the fantasy life he created inside his room. Guns were no problem for Lanza.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/sandy-hook-rep … d=21009111

…would make executing these crimes, and not slipping up or not getting caught, very very very difficult for a true schizophrenic. Also, as a result of their illness obtaining and owning a gun would be quite difficult. Also having the freedom and time to commit these crimes does not seem fitting for a schizophrenic.

In 2017, absolutely correct. In the mid-late 60s, not so much. PDs didn’t work together like now, wasn’t dna, guns could be purchased by mail, there wasn’t as many meds, oversight, etc. He was able to take advantage of the times.

What you say is correct, but I tend to agree with Zresearch. I’ve always felt if the Zodiac was mentally ill to the point of it being disabling he would have been caught.

We don’t really know the depth of Ross’s illness. We know when he was younger, according to the ladies at the RCC library, he was scary strange but someone correct me if I’m wrong we don’t know of any major problems until he was placed under the guardianship, which was several years after the last known Zodiac killing I believe. There was the phone booth thing, but that could have been a bad acid trip, or just too much booze and speed, not so much a mental episode though his mental state certainly made it a bit worse.

But that’s a main point for me when considering Ross as the Zodiac, just how mental was he and when did it get to the point he had to be placed under care. We may never know for sure unless the family speaks. Right now, even with the little we know about Ross, I tend to think it lends to discount him as being the Zodiac. I still like him as a suspect though and of the known suspects he’s top of my list.

It’s just that what I know about him doesn’t fit with what I think Zodiac was actually like. I’ve always thought he was the type of guy you could sit next to and not realize how twisted sick he was. I think at best you’d get a sense he was a bit off if you talked to him long enough or knew him, but not to a degree you would think he was as out there as he was. It was a slow burn type of insanity, he was able to keep it inside him. He was able to carefully plan and carry out these attacks, then taunt the police. I think it took a careful, calculating person to do that, else he would have been caught even with investigative limitations at the time.

Guns were no problem for Lanza.

Because his mom bought them for him. Can’t compare it to Zodiac’s era, different time, different laws.

Much of what Zodiac did was obsessive and opportunistic. He skated by getting caught on every one of his confirmed crimes, as well as Bates if you believe Riverside is his work. Because we have the benefit of his writings, as well as witnesses, his delusions and theatrical sadism are there for us to pore over, for years to come.