I believe that out of sheer embarrassment and hubris the FBI would never admit that Ted was responsible for the Tylenol killings – even if they knew for certain that he was.

I believe that out of sheer embarrassment and hubris the FBI would never admit that Ted was responsible for the Tylenol killings – even if they knew for certain that he was.

Dreamnine! Good to see you. What did you think of the recent vote in Scotland? Were you on the independence side or the better together side? Anyway good to see you, always enjoy your comments and thoughts on the Z case, Percy, Tylenol and Ted, pro, con or otherwise.

Yes as time goes by I tend to think you are probably right. The recent yearly budget for the FBI was $8 billion. And every year they ask for more and more. Yet look at their record. Waco, Ruby Ridge, framing of innocent man Richard Jewel, the failure to arrest terrorists at flight schools prior to 9-11, a 25,000 name suspect list in Unabomber but Ted’s name not on it, etc., etc. And what major serial killer case have they ever solved?

As far as a mere citizen helping them with information and analysis, their attitude is basically thanks but no thanks, we know everything and don’t need any help. They have supercomputers, crime labs and $8 billion budgets. But what they lack is a capacity for creative thought and ability to think outside the box. I got one FBI agent to think that it could be Ted in Tylenol so they asked him for DNA, but the follow up has been weak.

So yes I think it would be very embarrassing for them if citizens were shown to have solved cases like Zodiac and Tylenol which they could not solve.

I believe that out of sheer embarrassment and hubris the FBI would never admit that Ted was responsible for the Tylenol killings – even if they knew for certain that he was.

Dreamnine! Good to see you. What did you think of the recent vote in Scotland? Were you on the independence side or the better together side? Anyway good to see you, always enjoy your comments and thoughts on the Z case, Percy, Tylenol and Ted, pro, con or otherwise.

Yes as time goes by I tend to think you are probably right. The recent yearly budget for the FBI was $8 billion. And every year they ask for more and more. Yet look at their record. Waco, Ruby Ridge, framing of innocent man Richard Jewel, the failure to arrest terrorists at flight schools prior to 9-11, a 25,000 name suspect list in Unabomber but Ted’s name not on it, etc., etc. And what major serial killer case have they ever solved?

As far as a mere citizen helping them with information and analysis, their attitude is basically thanks but no thanks, we know everything and don’t need any help. They have supercomputers, crime labs and $8 billion budgets. But what they lack is a capacity for creative thought and ability to think outside the box. I got one FBI agent to think that it could be Ted in Tylenol so they asked him for DNA, but the follow up has been weak.

So yes I think it would be very embarrassing for them if citizens were shown to have solved cases like Zodiac and Tylenol which they could not solve.

I was on the Independence side, AK, but the better together campaign had the entire UK establishment, (left and right wing), the largely English media, the banks, the insurance companies, the military and the Royal Family going for it. It wasn’t really a fair vote in my opinion. I despise the BBC and will never view their content again. Plus, I’ll never regard myself as British.

As for the FBI, yeah, I think you’re right. And if Ted wasn’t responsible for the Tylenol killings, then who was? No better suspects have emerged in 30+ years.

Thanks, AKW.

Well, that clears up at least some things. One might speculate as to why TK would deny such a request. Apart from the obvious explanation I’d say it’s plausible that he’s just being contrary (he’s not too fond of the law, I would imagine, and he’s got little to lose by being a bastard about it) or for that matter offended (regarding himself as above such unpleasantness).

On the other hand one might speculate as to why they don’t simply get their sample (using force, which they apparently can) if they consider him a viable suspect.

Could be red tape, simple as that – combined with a lack of urgency, the man’s behind bars, after all, it’s not like he’s going anywhere.

Anyway, thanks again for the clarification.

I thought this might be a relevant article to this discussion. The DNA is not so cut and dry. I think they have his DNA, but they are not sure how reliable it is. Maybe they only have a partial DNA and the part of the code they have for the Tylenol case is the part that is missing from Ted’s DNA fingerprint. Also, there is the problem of having a DNA on letters that are clearly from him that don’t match his DNA. It’s say that is an indication that the DNA they have on file has been contaminated with someone else’s DNA. The collection and processing methods used now are much, much better than even 5 years ago. They probably know this and want a new sample.

___________________________________________________

http://articles.latimes.com/1997-03-04/ … se-lawyers

Defense Asks Judge to Bar Evidence in Unabomber Case
March 04, 1997|MARK GLADSTONE | TIMES STAFF WRITER
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SACRAMENTO — Attorneys for accused Unabomber Theodore J. Kaczynski on Monday urged a federal judge to toss out evidence seized nearly a year ago at Kaczynski’s Montana cabin, saying the FBI was "deliberately misleading" in obtaining a search warrant.

In several hundred pages of documents filed late Monday, defense lawyers Quin Denvir and Judy Clarke maintained that the FBI "simply failed to provide any trustworthy information that would convince a reasonably prudent person that Mr. Kaczynski committed the Unabomb crimes."

To buttress their argument, the defense lawyers provided a detailed critique of the 104-page search warrant affidavit that sought to establish links between Kaczynski and the Unabomber.

In particular, they contend that the government misrepresented DNA evidence, failed to disclose information that Kaczynski did not match the description of the Unabomber "in virtually any respect," and covered up evidence showing that Kaczynski had an alibi for a 1985 fatal bombing in Sacramento.

As a result, the defense lawyers are asking U.S. Judge Garland E. Burrell Jr. to exclude all evidence seized in April at Kaczynski’s remote cabin.

That evidence includes a stack of documents that prosecutors have described as the backbone of the case against the former UC Berkeley mathematics professor, including entries in which they say he took responsibility for the deadly, coast-to-coast trail of 16 bombings.

An FBI spokesman declined to comment on the defense legal brief.

After Kaczynski’s arrest, the government released a list of evidence removed by FBI agents from his cabin, including bomb components, notebooks and typewriters that allegedly tied him to the bombings that started in 1978 and killed three and injured 23.

In June, a federal grand jury indicted Kaczynski in four Unabomber-related explosions, including two fatal attacks–the 1985 death of Sacramento computer store owner Hugh Scrutton and the 1995 death of Capitol timber industry lobbyist Gilbert Murray. Kaczynski, 54, remains in Sacramento County Jail awaiting trial.

Seeking to poke holes in the government’s case, Kaczynski’s lawyers said that documents available to the FBI provided their client with an alibi for the 1985 Sacramento bombing.

"Specifically, bank records and information from bank officials all showed Mr. Kaczynski personally making a deposit in Helena, Mont., on the date of a Unabomb event in Sacramento," according to defense documents.

Another major point made by the defense was that the government’s search warrant affidavit failed to reveal that DNA testing excluded Kaczynski as the source of DNA on two Unabomb letters and probably excluded him as the source of DNA on a third letter.

A third issue in dispute involves the description of the Unabomb suspect given in 1987 by an eyewitness who saw a man plant an explosive device in the rear parking lot of a Salt Lake City computer store.

In contrast to the witness’ description, Kaczynski was 14 to 19 years older, 1 to 3 inches shorter and had a more muscular build, according to the defense team.

Authorities had been searching for the Unabomber since 1978, when his first attack came at Northwestern University, north of Chicago. The FBI gave the case the code name "Unabomb" because early targets included universities and airlines.

This sentence:
"Another major point made by the defense was that the government’s search warrant affidavit failed to reveal that DNA testing excluded Kaczynski as the source of DNA on two Unabomb letters and probably excluded him as the source of DNA on a third letter."

Is based on a comparison of DNA found on a stamp on a letter from Ted to David to DNA from a stamp on a letter sent by the Unabomber. There was never a DNA draw from Ted himself. I very much doubt the DNA on the Unabomber stamp was from Ted. He was well aware of DNA and outlined a procedure he used for stamps on Unabomber letters. He covered his hands in plastic and would not lick the stamps but dip them in a saucer of water.

I confirmed with the former director of the FBI CODIS program that they never had a sample directly from Ted.

But the FBI records, from Ted’s own journals and their analysis, show that he had a very careful procedure he used with ALL stamps he bought, regardless of whether they were to be used on bomb packages, letters to newspapers or to family. This is the procedure, as recounted on p. xxi in the book "Unabomber: A Desire To Kill", by Robert Graysmith:

"The previous night he had specially treated the "O’Neill" stamps along with the others – "Lucy Stone" fifty cent stamps, "Frederick Douglass" twenty five cent stamps and another dollar stamp, "America’s Light Fueled by Truth and Reason". THE SOLITARY MAN HAD SOAKED THEM IN SALT WATER, THEN RUBBED THEM WITH SOY BEAN OIL TO ERASE ANY FINGERPRINTS THAT MIGHT HAVE SLIPPED PAST HIS IMPROVISED PLASTIC WRAP "GLOVES" "

Ted never licked stamps or anything else. From 1978 to 1995, the FBI "knew the technophobic bomber never licked labels" or envelope flaps or stamps – but then in 1995 he just "slipped up" and licked a stamp? Graysmith book, pp. 279 and 324. That is highly, highly unlikely. There is a reason the FBI after an 18 year $60 million investigation had a 25,000 person suspect list that did not have Ted’s name on it. He simply made very few slips up of any kind, and never made a major mistake. Kaczynski knew all about DNA – he sent a bomb to leading genetic scientist Dr. Epstien and had the name and home address of the inventor of the PCR DNA method, Kary Mullis, on a death list in his cabin. He thought DNA was yet another way the "techno – nerds" would try to control humanity.

We must also consider that the Unabomber case was happening in the time period of the FBI lab scandal. The lab was found to have grossly violated procedures involving contamination. There were proven accusations of incompetence, contamination violations, bias, unsound procedures, and even perjury and out right fabrication. In regards to the Unabomber case specifically, the explosives analysis was grossly unsound and partially fabricated – that is what the Department of Justice Inspector General found. See http://www.usdoj.gov/oig/special/9704a/17unabom.htm . In relevant part:

"Furthermore, the concerns raised by Burmeister about Rudolph’s conclusions appear in several instances to be well-founded. The Laboratory did not adequately address these concerns after they were brought to the attention of Mohnal and Laboratory management in September 1995. Rudolph’s work on UNABOM displays the same problems of inadequate documentation and conclusions not supported by sufficient data that we noted in the more general discussion in Part Three, Section A above.

A qualified explosives residue examiner should undertake a detailed review of all of Rudolph’s UNABOM work before it is used further in the case. In response to a draft of this section of the report, Robert Cleary, a Special Attorney to the U.S. Attorney General, advised the OIG that the Government would not be relying upon any of Rudolph’s work in the UNABOM case as part of the prosecution of Theodore J. Kaczyski, who has been indicted on charges related to bombings attributed to the Unabomber. Cleary stated that to the extent the Government will offer explosive residue evidence in the Kaczyski case, it will be relying upon the conclusions of Burmeister and other, non-FBI laboratories."

Thus, the Justice Department agreed NOT to use FBI Lab results because they were so tainted. Lawyers for Kaczynski asserted it was "impossible" for the FBI to have obtained his DNA. In regards to DNA, this is what the writers of a book on the lab scandal found:

"The IG follow-up report dealt only with the explosives unit. But since the publication of our book in the United States, we have investigated the operations of the DNA unit which the IG claimed was a model of scientific integrity. We found that the original IG investigation discovered quite the contrary. That the DNA unit was seriously negligent, but the IG covered up this finding. We discovered that Drs. Greg Parsons and Martin Alevy of the DNA unit had refused to testify on behalf of the FBI because they felt the DNA testing could be faulty, unreliable, and inaccurate. They felt so strongly about this that they left the lab to resume being street agents with a cut in pay and rank.

The head of the DNA unit, Dr. Jenifer Lindsey Smith, and her subordinates totally botched the DNA testing in the Unabomber case such that the prosecution would not have been able to use the results if Unabomber suspect Ted Kaczynski had gone to trial. Smith did not even bother to obtain a sample of Kaczynski’s actual DNA, and an FBI affidavit lied that there was a match found between the Unabomber’s DNA and Kaczynski’s DNA. "

Tainting Evidence: Inside the Scandal at the FBI Crime Lab, John Kelly and Phillip K Wearne

In short, there is very good reason to doubt that Kaczynski DNA is on any Unabomber stamp or personal stamp. And we now know that Kaczynski DNA frrom his body has never been put into CODIS. Federal law requires all convicted prisoners in federal custody to have DNA taken. Yet it has never happened. Kaczynski has never had DNA drawn from his body. So nobody knows what it is, and it may or may not match DNA in the Zodiac, Tylenol or other cases.

There are persons in law enforcement trying to make it happen, but there is a lot more politics and red tape involved than I thought.

In this one Ted poses with white string. Why? I don’t know. But Zodiac did tie the victims at LB with white clothesline rope. The white string must have some meaning for Ted to pose with it. And you can see in these pics how much he looks like the suspect sketch in the Hakari murder, a murder which police thought might be one in a series with Bennallack and Lass.

Two Photographs of Bearded Ted Kaczynski vs. Sketch of Suspect in Murder of Sacramento Nurse Judith Hakari.

Hakari is considered a possible victim of the Zodiac, and police thought her killer also probably murdered Sacramento resident Nancy Bennallack (in a ONS like home invasion attack) and Nevada resident Donna Lass, both also regarded as possible Zodiac victims.

The day after Bennallack was killed, but before it hit the newspapers, the Zodiac sent a Halloween Card to the SF Chronicle claiming a new 14th victim.

And the Zodiac sent in a postcard strongly suggesting he killed Lass.

The bearded Ted Kaczynski bears an obvious strong similarity to the bearded suspect in these possible Zodiac murders.

VASA CROE: I do have to say that the drawing and the pics depict someone with a very odd part in their hair. Ted parted his hair extremely far on the side and the drawing depicts the same. It is unusual.

As far as the "white string", has anyone ever asked TK about that? Could it simply be a piece of hay? What is the rest of the pic?

AK WILKS: Good observation about the hair part. It looks like white string to me. The pic is a screen capture from an MSNBC program so I don’t have the rest of the picture.

Last night (Fri., Nov. 14, 2014) on the "Coast To Coast" a.m. radio show Tom Voigt & the great host, Richard Syrett had a great interview about the Zodiac case. Richard spoke about the possibility of Ted being The Zodiac. But Tom said he’d been eliminated thru physical evidence not just once, but twice: First by local cops, and then by the FBI. He said this physical evidence was fingerprints and/or DNA.

I’ve read lots of posts here about the controversy of comparing Ted’s DNA to the Zodiac’s, but I don’t remember anything definitive.

Sorry if I’m behind on this, but WAS Ted eliminated by DNA and/or fingerprints?

Zcatcher read the info below. Ted did not match the cab prints but CCCSD Crime Lab Chief Paul Holes told me we don’t know if any of the cab prints were from Z. And Ted never had a DNA draw see below.

This sentence:
"Another major point made by the defense was that the government’s search warrant affidavit failed to reveal that DNA testing excluded Kaczynski as the source of DNA on two Unabomb letters and probably excluded him as the source of DNA on a third letter."

Is based on a comparison of DNA found on a stamp on a letter from Ted to David to DNA from a stamp on a letter sent by the Unabomber. There was never a DNA draw from Ted himself. I very much doubt the DNA on the Unabomber stamp was from Ted. He was well aware of DNA and outlined a procedure he used for stamps on Unabomber letters. He covered his hands in plastic and would not lick the stamps but dip them in a saucer of water.

I confirmed with the former director of the FBI CODIS program that they never had a sample directly from Ted.

But the FBI records, from Ted’s own journals and their analysis, show that he had a very careful procedure he used with ALL stamps he bought, regardless of whether they were to be used on bomb packages, letters to newspapers or to family. This is the procedure, as recounted on p. xxi in the book "Unabomber: A Desire To Kill", by Robert Graysmith:

"The previous night he had specially treated the "O’Neill" stamps along with the others – "Lucy Stone" fifty cent stamps, "Frederick Douglass" twenty five cent stamps and another dollar stamp, "America’s Light Fueled by Truth and Reason". THE SOLITARY MAN HAD SOAKED THEM IN SALT WATER, THEN RUBBED THEM WITH SOY BEAN OIL TO ERASE ANY FINGERPRINTS THAT MIGHT HAVE SLIPPED PAST HIS IMPROVISED PLASTIC WRAP "GLOVES" "

Ted never licked stamps or anything else. From 1978 to 1995, the FBI "knew the technophobic bomber never licked labels" or envelope flaps or stamps – but then in 1995 he just "slipped up" and licked a stamp? Graysmith book, pp. 279 and 324. That is highly, highly unlikely. There is a reason the FBI after an 18 year $60 million investigation had a 25,000 person suspect list that did not have Ted’s name on it. He simply made very few slips up of any kind, and never made a major mistake. Kaczynski knew all about DNA – he sent a bomb to leading genetic scientist Dr. Epstien and had the name and home address of the inventor of the PCR DNA method, Kary Mullis, on a death list in his cabin. He thought DNA was yet another way the "techno – nerds" would try to control humanity.

We must also consider that the Unabomber case was happening in the time period of the FBI lab scandal. The lab was found to have grossly violated procedures involving contamination. There were proven accusations of incompetence, contamination violations, bias, unsound procedures, and even perjury and out right fabrication. In regards to the Unabomber case specifically, the explosives analysis was grossly unsound and partially fabricated – that is what the Department of Justice Inspector General found. See http://www.usdoj.gov/oig/special/9704a/17unabom.htm . In relevant part:

"Furthermore, the concerns raised by Burmeister about Rudolph’s conclusions appear in several instances to be well-founded. The Laboratory did not adequately address these concerns after they were brought to the attention of Mohnal and Laboratory management in September 1995. Rudolph’s work on UNABOM displays the same problems of inadequate documentation and conclusions not supported by sufficient data that we noted in the more general discussion in Part Three, Section A above.

A qualified explosives residue examiner should undertake a detailed review of all of Rudolph’s UNABOM work before it is used further in the case. In response to a draft of this section of the report, Robert Cleary, a Special Attorney to the U.S. Attorney General, advised the OIG that the Government would not be relying upon any of Rudolph’s work in the UNABOM case as part of the prosecution of Theodore J. Kaczyski, who has been indicted on charges related to bombings attributed to the Unabomber. Cleary stated that to the extent the Government will offer explosive residue evidence in the Kaczyski case, it will be relying upon the conclusions of Burmeister and other, non-FBI laboratories."

Thus, the Justice Department agreed NOT to use FBI Lab results because they were so tainted. Lawyers for Kaczynski asserted it was "impossible" for the FBI to have obtained his DNA. In regards to DNA, this is what the writers of a book on the lab scandal found:

"The IG follow-up report dealt only with the explosives unit. But since the publication of our book in the United States, we have investigated the operations of the DNA unit which the IG claimed was a model of scientific integrity. We found that the original IG investigation discovered quite the contrary. That the DNA unit was seriously negligent, but the IG covered up this finding. We discovered that Drs. Greg Parsons and Martin Alevy of the DNA unit had refused to testify on behalf of the FBI because they felt the DNA testing could be faulty, unreliable, and inaccurate. They felt so strongly about this that they left the lab to resume being street agents with a cut in pay and rank.

The head of the DNA unit, Dr. Jenifer Lindsey Smith, and her subordinates totally botched the DNA testing in the Unabomber case such that the prosecution would not have been able to use the results if Unabomber suspect Ted Kaczynski had gone to trial. Smith did not even bother to obtain a sample of Kaczynski’s actual DNA, and an FBI affidavit lied that there was a match found between the Unabomber’s DNA and Kaczynski’s DNA. "

Tainting Evidence: Inside the Scandal at the FBI Crime Lab, John Kelly and Phillip K Wearne

In short, there is very good reason to doubt that Kaczynski DNA is on any Unabomber stamp or personal stamp. And we now know that Kaczynski DNA frrom his body has never been put into CODIS. Federal law requires all convicted prisoners in federal custody to have DNA taken. Yet it has never happened. Kaczynski has never had DNA drawn from his body. So nobody knows what it is, and it may or may not match DNA in the Zodiac, Tylenol or other cases.

There are persons in law enforcement trying to make it happen, but there is a lot more politics and red tape involved than I thought.

Last night (Fri., Nov. 14, 2014) on the "Coast To Coast" a.m. radio show Tom Voigt & the great host, Richard Syrett had a great interview about the Zodiac case. Richard spoke about the possibility of Ted being The Zodiac. But Tom said he’d been eliminated thru physical evidence not just once, but twice: First by local cops, and then by the FBI. He said this physical evidence was fingerprints and/or DNA.

I’ve read lots of posts here about the controversy of comparing Ted’s DNA to the Zodiac’s, but I don’t remember anything definitive.

Sorry if I’m behind on this, but WAS Ted eliminated by DNA and/or fingerprints?

scratch the surface and see which POI is being pushed by that person and that will be your answer..the prints in the cab have lead no where because they are of no value..toschi and his 10 gallon swelled head would have made arrest if he could have ..he did not..that speaks volumes about the prints lifted from that cab..

what continually irks me is the white glove treatment of both X and TK..swab TK’s mouth and lets get some results..may lead no where but at least we would have record on file where as of now its debatable if that has even been done..

sadly i do not think SFPD will be much help going forward.somebody was trusted but released some info that should not have been released even though it may have been of little value..when you have somebody that can get you some access to controlled information you keep your mouth shut when they dangle a carrot in front of you..all my take

…the prints in the cab have lead no where because they are of no value…toschi and his 10 gallon swelled head would have made arrest if he could have…he did not…that speaks volumes about the prints lifted from that cab…

Could be that the prints have led nowhere because they’ve never been compared to those of the killer. I mean, it is possible – right?

What Toschi did or didn’t do, doesn’t say anything about the quality of the prints. The fact is that SFPD did clear Allen, for instance, based on those prints. Vallejo remained interested in him until after his death – but that is a different matter. As far as SFPD were concerned, Allen was cleared – and he was cleared based on handwriting AND fingerprints (and DNA, it would appear, for that matter).

So, who knows – right? It would be so much easier if we had a set of prints everyone was 100% satisfied about. As it stands, though, it has never been proved that SFPD had serious doubts about the cab prints. On the contrary, it seems that they were certain about at least a couple of those prints – and used them to rule out suspects, including Allen.

When I talked to Paul Holes, Crime Lab Chief of the CCCSD, which does contractual forensic services for Vallejo, he told me none of the cab prints match each other, none match to any of the possible prints from elsewhere in the Zodiac case and none have ever matched to a person. He also told me he had doubts about the DNA recovered from stamps on Zodiac letters. He told me, specifically referencing Mike Rodelli’s Mr. X suspect and my POI Ted Kaczynski, but also stating generally "I would not dismiss them or any otherwise good suspect solely on the basis of a non-match to the cab prints or the DNA."

Mr. Holes is the man who first discovered the links between the Sacramento area EAR rapes and the ONS Southern California rape murders. He is nationally recognized as a top forensics expert, often appearing on TV shows about forensics. He also recently helped solve some of the west coast alphabet murders of Mr. Naso which were cold cases. He told me he loves working on cold cases like Zodiac and thinks they are intellectually challenging and important to the families affected but often his desired projects in those cold cases get delayed by new murders and crimes which have to take budget and time priority.

And when Inv. Larry Montgomery of the OCDA asked the SFPD for the DNA results from the Zodiac stamp so he could compare it to the confirmed EAR/ONS DNA, the SFPD told him they had "no confidence" in that DNA result.

…the prints in the cab have lead no where because they are of no value…toschi and his 10 gallon swelled head would have made arrest if he could have…he did not…that speaks volumes about the prints lifted from that cab…

Could be that the prints have led nowhere because they’ve never been compared to those of the killer. I mean, it is possible – right?

What Toschi did or didn’t do, doesn’t say anything about the quality of the prints. The fact is that SFPD did clear Allen, for instance, based on those prints. Vallejo remained interested in him until after his death – but that is a different matter. As far as SFPD were concerned, Allen was cleared – and he was cleared based on handwriting AND fingerprints (and DNA, it would appear, for that matter).

So, who knows – right? It would be so much easier if we had a set of prints everyone was 100% satisfied about. As it stands, though, it has never been proved that SFPD had serious doubts about the cab prints. On the contrary, it seems that they were certain about at least a couple of those prints – and used them to rule out suspects, including Allen.

i dont think in regards to SFPD this is the case..the fact is they have no case..the facts are there..again if toschi had anything he would have moved on it..he did not and i think that irked him to no end with his ego..the fundamental flaw is many are still hung up on SFPD solving this case thru stine and its just not going to happen…i still think berkley is ground zero in Z but where Z came from is another matter..could be south, north, east or west..my gut is Z came from the east..id be surprised if Z was home grown californian

I’m not sure what you’re saying here, snooter: SFPD has no case against whom? Against an unknown subject? How can you have a case against an unknown subject?

The fact that the evidence in the Stine case has not led to Z’s arrest is not – in and of itself – proof that said evidence is no good. That simply isn’t a logical conclusion in my opinion.

Apologies if I have misunderstood your point.

I’m not sure what you’re saying here, snooter: SFPD has no case against whom? Against an unknown subject? How can you have a case against an unknown subject?

The fact that the evidence in the Stine case has not led to Z’s arrest is not – in and of itself – proof that said evidence is no good. That simply isn’t a logical conclusion in my opinion.

Apologies if I have misunderstood your point.

no problem norse..to clarify SFPD does not have enuff evidence to arrest perp in the stine cab homicide (print evidence-missing shirt piece is another matter altogether)..,just my take.

When I talked to Paul Holes, Crime Lab Chief of the CCCSD, which does contractual forensic services for Vallejo, he told me none of the cab prints match each other, none match to any of the possible prints from elsewhere in the Zodiac case and none have ever matched to a person.

Yes, indeed! And that’s a problem – clearly so. But, two points:

The prints which are deemed relevant in the Zodiac case (some of the prints in the Stine case, regarded in isolation, could clearly be unrelated, i.e. they could belong to cab passengers who have nothing to do with the murder – this is mentioned by Armstrong among others) are partials, right? So, the fact that there are no matches (no partial, possible Z print match any other partial, possible Z print) is not conclusive either way. It’s simply…inconclusive.

But – it is still possible to compare such partials to the prints of persons of interest in a meaningful way. Or isn’t it? The prints found at the Stine scene which SFPD allegedly were "confident" about WERE compared to Allen’s prints – and there was no match there. And Allen was ruled out – by SFPD. Not by VPD – which complicates matters.

To me it seems to boil down to whether SFPD were justified in being "confident" about this material – or not. Why were they confident? Apparently because they found prints (partial or not – but clearly enough to compare to other prints in a meaningful way) which had – in layman’s terms – blood "under" them. Meaning they were left AFTER Stine was shot, to put it short and sweet.

Meaning, in its turn, as far as I can tell, that these prints – if the reasoning and the forensic work of the SFPD were sound – must have been left either by Stine’s killer or by someone who arrived at the scene subsequent to the murder, i.e. a cop or a medic or some such person.

And as far as I know all such persons were eliminated through control prints. Which is why – again, as far as I can tell – SFPD felt "confident" about these prints.

Anyway – this ain’t really the place for this debate, as it pertains to Stine and/or the whole Z case, not Ted K specifically.