AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:21 pm

WOW!

Great job. You got it before me.

But unless you object, I will make this available to other sites, as I told the FBI I would.

DID YOU GET THE SECOND PAGE "BLEEDING KNIFE OF THE ZODIAC"??????

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:23 pm

WOW!

Great job. You got it before me.

But unless you object, I will make this available to other sites, as I told the FBI I would.

DID YOU GET THE SECOND PAGE "BLEEDING KNIFE OF THE ZODIAC"??????

I dont object, shoot it out to the other forums, so everyone has the details. They can see what a little amateur site like this one is capable of. I also just posted the BLEEDING KNIFE letter in a separate thread.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:35 pm

Is this a "copycat" letter?

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:37 pm

Is this a "copycat" letter?

No idea. In the FBI files, this letter was mentioned as a "possible" Zodiac letter. I dont remember off hand what the FBI file listed as to an opinion of the letter.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:39 pm

Morf and I made FOIA requests to the FBI to get the possible Zodiac letter postmarked 12/16/69 Fairfield, CA, said to have a Page One with the words "This State Is In Trouble" and a Page Two with the words "Bleeding Knife Of The Zodiac" and a drawing of a knife.

MORF GOT IT!!!

We are sending it to all sites, as we told the FBI we would.

We want ALL Zodiac researchers to see these letters, to help determine if they are real or fake, and what they may mean.

Opinions, comments, ideas?

Handwriting appears to match, moderately to weakly. As FBI analyst said of these Zodiac Fairfield letters, they appear to contain "distortion" and not to have been written as "freely" as other letters. But FBI analyst also said they contain characteristics matching confirmed Zodiac letters showing they "may" have been written by same individual.

There appears to be a very brief CODE on this as well.

Interesting that he threatens to kill police, in light of Officer Radetich murder in June 1970.

Also the threats against other cities, including SACRAMENTO. Interesting in light of 1970 murders of Sacramento residents Judith Hakari and Nancy Bennallack, also future Sacramento crimes of EAR/ONS.

Definitely a threat against the GOVERMENT here, interesting for suspects like Kaczynski, Gaikowski, Davis/Manson and Troy Houghton, who all had radical anti – government views, be they left, right or anarchist.

"Bleeding Knife" and drawing appears to be Jack the Ripper reference.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:42 pm

I don’t think the writing is a match; The writing is "wider" and not formulated the same way…

Even this letter, whcih I think is the closest to the one above, is no match, I think…

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:45 pm

Wonder what "go for the government life" means? Moving due to a govt job? Going on welfare? Joining the service? Sounds a bit like an ADIOS to the police.

Zamantha, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:46 pm

I don’t think the writing is a match;

I vote, we all take a deep breath an ponder everything Morf is going to post for us to read.
Totally look at everything, and maybe all hold our opinons until we can give a good detailed
reason why it may for may not be a true Z finding. I honestly feel alot of this information needs
more then just a quick yes or no. My thoughts……
None of us have to be right or wrong, just try our best to figure it all out.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:49 pm

"go for the Government life" = be in the military; and/or be a public sector employee

(could be other things too, but the above would be the most common)

Zamantha; look at what I have posted.

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:50 pm

I don’t think the writing is a match;

I vote, we all take a deep breath an ponder everything Morf is going to post for us to read.
Totally look at everything, and maybe all hold our opinons until we can give a good detailed
reason why it may for may not be a true Z finding. I honestly feel alot of this information needs
more then just a quick yes or no. My thoughts……
None of us have to be right or wrong, just try our best to figure it all out.

Good idea Zam, but there were only two total pages sent to me by the FBI. This and the drawing of the knife, which I made into its own thread. So unless they will be sending more stuff, that’s it. But we should all take some time, and get some opinions.

It sounds to me like the writer of this letter is saying FAREWELL to the cops, and going with some kind of Govt life.

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:51 pm

Any of the "usual suspects" move to Sacramento?

Zamantha, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:52 pm

"go for the Government life" = be in the military; and/or be a public sector employee

(could be other things too, but the above would be the most common)

Zamantha; look at what I have posted.

Hi Zag, my post was posted after your first post
Your second post is great! Kudos, that’s what I meant, not trying to be negative but
wanting everyone to really look at things and compare, thanks for doing that!
Zam* :star:

Ok: off topic…. back to the letter.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:56 pm

http://science.howstuffworks.com/handwr … /printable

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:14 pm

"go for the government life"

I read that to mean TRY TO TAKE THE LIVES OF GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES – Cops, military, politicians, bureacrats.

He says "this STATE is in trouble." Then he threatens COPS in FAIRFIELD.

I think he is threatening "GOVERNMENT LIFE" – the lifes of government workers.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:18 pm

Any of the "usual suspects" move to Sacramento?

I think Tarrance lived around Sacramento?

Also, Ted Kaczynski after 1969 spent more time around Sacramento then any other CA city. He stayed at the Royal Hotel in Sacramento and local bookstore employees saw him so much they nick named him Einstein. Two of the three confirmed Unabomber deaths were Sacramento residents, Hugh Scrutton (computers) and Gil Murray (Forestry).

Sacramento is the STATE Capital of California.

Also, very important, just four months after this letter is sent Judith Hakari, nurse, is killed in Sacramento, and later in October 1970 another Sacramento resident, Nancy Bennallack, is murdered, a day before Zodiac sent his "14" Halloween card.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:39 pm

Finally, here it is, a suspected letter from Zodiac…"THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE"

The FBI did not give me any additional info about this letter, no facts, no dates, nothing.

The first two "s" ‘s are lightning bolt, Norse – Nazi SS style. This was also done on the May 1978 letter that threatened "Chief Piggy" Gates and made the Manson family reference.

I also note that "3, 6, 9" appear here, one on top the other!

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:43 pm

"go for the government life"

I read that to mean TRY TO TAKE THE LIVES OF GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES – Cops, military, politicians, bureacrats.

He says "this STATE is in trouble." Then he threatens COPS in FAIRFIELD.

I think he is threatening "GOVERNMENT LIFE" – the lifes of government workers.

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:45 pm

Finally, here it is, a suspected letter from Zodiac…"THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE"

The FBI did not give me any additional info about this letter, no facts, no dates, nothing.

The first two "s" ‘s are lightning bolt, Norse – Nazi SS style. This was also done on the May 1978 letter that threatened "Chief Piggy" Gates and made the Manson family reference.

I also note that "3, 6, 9" appear here, one on top the other!

Good points!

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:56 pm

Similar writing to another Fairfield letter, one that also threatens police "+ he will be a cop".

Also has similar code symbols.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:19 pm

The code part here, six symbols than a large Zodiac symbol.

Just using the Harden Key from the first solved Zodiac code, those six symbols translate as:

S I N H N D then a large Zodiac symbol.

Meaning "Signed Zodiac"?

Or is each Zodiac symbol a "D"?

Then it would be:

S I N H N D D D D D

Actually in the Harden Key, a square with a dot inside is an "S", a square without a dot is a "Y", meaning it could be:

Y I N H N D D D D D

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:33 pm

That will give you and Auth, and some of you cipher guys something to keep you busy!

AuthUser, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:42 pm

That will give you and Auth, and some of you cipher guys something to keep you busy!

This cipher will be almost impossible to prove because of the length. The 4 Zodiac signs look like they are
"orbiting" the center Zodiac symbol, so that leaves 5 different characters. Any 5 letters could be forced
into the word. Also, Zodiac knew this, so the person that wrote it either knew it couldn’t be solved or
didn’t want it to be solved. Just my opinion…

Auth

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:46 pm

Auth –

With such few symbols, my thought is that it cannot be a new code key, so would likely be the same code key as the solved code, the Harden Key. Assuming Z made a mistake or variation with the dot in the square:

Just using the Harden Key from the first solved Zodiac code, those six symbols translate as:

S I N H N D then a large Zodiac symbol.

"Signed, Zodiac"?

Or SIN – HND ?

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:52 pm

Auth –

Feel free to post these at zodiac killer facts, just give credit to our site.

Anyone who is a member at ZKF, or ZK, or other sites, feel free to post these, we want all Z researchers to look at these and get the most minds on them. Just note where they came from, please.

Keeping my word, as Morf and I want all Z researchers to look at this, I have so far sent copies of the 12/16/69 letter to:

Mike Butterfield ZKF
Doug Oswell Unazod (also I posted it there)
Ricardo MK Zodiac
Chris Y ZKTruth
Roland Zodiologists
Howard Davis Zodiac/Manson Connection
Tom Voigt ZK

Any other Zodiac sites I am missing, or true crime sites that might be interested?

We want maximum exposure for these letters, to try to help determine if they are real or fake, and if real, what do they mean? What clues may they have? So we want all interested to have them, regardless of the petty and stupid rivalries and ego battles.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:32 pm

Just looking at every possibility, I took the possible code solution (using Harden Key) of:

S I N H N D

And put it into a Caesar Code Matrix of 0-3-6-9 (3-6-9 also appear stacked in this letter, just like a Caesar Code matrix). I bolded some possible word finds – TOY, SIN, EYE – but so far nothing really jumps out at me:

B R W Q W M

Y O T N T J

V L Q K Q G

S I N H N D

P F K E K A

M C H B H X

J Z E Y E U

Other possible translation is square as "Y", which would be:

H R W Q W M

E O T N T J

B L Q K Q G

Y I N H N D

V F K E K A

S C H B H X

P Z E Y E U

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:28 pm

The writer draws our attention to 38 threatened kills in this (new) 12/16/69 letter.

By the Exorcist letter of Jan. 1974 the Zodiac claims he’s up to 37. Interesting.

[[[… Great stuff getting this, guys (morf/AK) …excellent! ….]]]]

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:40 pm

The writer draws our attention to 38 threatened kills in this (new) 12/16/69 letter.

By the Exorcist letter of Jan. 1974 the Zodiac claims he’s up to 37. Interesting.

[[[… Great stuff getting this, guys (morf/AK) …excellent! ….]]]]

Interesting!

bruce3, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:51 pm

Great job morph!

You did not talk -as so many do -you walked!

We do not have the envelope and that’s aways helpful,but it’s understandable here.

As far a Sacramento goes lots of CM/BD connections there.CM had a "safe house"(BD hid there for awhile when LE was searching for him-they had safe houses all over CA-especially LA) there. A former counselor of CM while CM was in Vacaville had a son and he was going to show me the house to me if I could get to Sacramento,but I could not make it.Drats.
He knew a man ("candyman"-an ex-con friend of CM’s-I have his first name only)that lived on the outskirts of Sacramento who owned a candy business.
They visited him Dec.68 and from there ‘travelled all over the N Bay’meeting friends,scoring drugs,etc.,according to Paul Watkins and Tex Watson.Watkins says the trip "to Sacramento…"was… "mid -December 1968."

He says, "I’ve never known exactly what Charlie was looking for during those aimless weeks we hung around Sacramento…We’d visit some of Charlie’s old friends…It was as if Charlie was waitng for some kind of direction,something to happen…he seemed to draw in himself sometimes .There seemed to be something going on in his head that he couldn’t share with us."
I believe this big ‘change’ in CM that Tex saw was CM dwelling on when to start his war,etc.To that day 1978- Watson was wondering what was on CM’s mind in ’68. My research found he and Bruce were planning to attack in the North Bay and start the revolution. Z did strike 12/20/68.

BD was seen in Berkeley during ‘Christmas season’ on Telegraph AV.Later he left for GB and did not return until April 1969.

For a short time in December ’68 CM ‘drove an old Studebaker to Reno.’Most of his time was spent in Sacramento and in and around the N Bay during December ’68 according to Paul Watkins.
When I wrote Susan Atkins about this trip to Sacramento she affirmed it, but would not give me any details as to why they were there or where they visited,etc.Whether our questions were about Zodiac or even certain ventures she would not talk.I was amazed as she had no reason for this atitude.She was in for life.Of course,she hoped to get out, but that was remote.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:31 pm

Wonder what "go for the government life" means? Moving due to a govt job? Going on welfare? Joining the service? Sounds a bit like an ADIOS to the police.

OR perhaps underground with a witness protection type situation due to being an informer against some person, group, or agency???

Zamantha, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:37 pm

Looking at every word, verbiage and for clews. Trying to keep an open mind, is it real is it fake. This is what needs to be looked at with a fine tooth comb to try our
best to figure out. Not fair to give it a quick glance and say fake………….
I like what Rufus found, I did not see that until he pointed it out.
I’m also thinking 4PI, 4 Z’s…………as I see four "little" Z crossmarks around the large Z. Sandy pointed this out to me as something she once saw.
Mannnn interesting. And if it is a fake, is someone trying to tell us something?? Lot’s of angles to think about.

Theforeigner, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:39 pm

Check out my lates two posts on this thread:

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … 456-15.htm

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm

Kudos Morf !!!!

My first impression was that there was no way z wrote this……….but……..I dunno.
There is so much variation in z writing anyways.
A few of the things I have on the "not z" side.
The "t’s" all lean the wrong way.
No "Th" connection.
I can hardly see the dots on most of the "i’s" and look at the on in zodiac it is on the wrong side…..z made big well defined dots mostly and almost always dotted the next letter in line……ie….when he wrote zodiac he always (I think) dotted the a.
And the slant of the letters is wrong……..but here is the kicker and part of the reason I think it could be genuine z …..
The "could be z" side.
….in the sentence "I will kill more people than you cops can count……..etc………..the familar z slant shows up right in the middle of the word "people"………..look at the difference in the first p and the second p……..the slant IMO is there right on thru "ple than you cops" and then it goes away again.
Also the "p" in Napa…..several of the "f’s"…………the middle "ha" at the bottom of the page……….the slant is back.
And
"I just want to tell you"………….wasnt z always saying that or words to that effect?
I just noticed that the dot in "times" is in the correct place for z.

Just my two cents………..very exciting in any case and BTW I just posted this on DK’s MB giving zodiackillersite and Morf the credit you are due……..good job

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:27 pm

Excellent work by The Foreigner:

The word KNIFE in both looks similar. In my opinion, the K on the car door is more like Z’s real, undisguised handwriting, and the bleeding knife may be his after he disguised it.

Concerning the Lake Berryess murder:

As far as I know, the police did NOT share the "by knife" writing on the car door, they kept that a secret from the public.
SO if that is the case, and I sure do belive that it is, then I would say that the VERY close match between "by knife" on the car door written Sep 27, 1969 and the word "knife" written in the possible Zodiac letter postmarked Dec 16, 1969, ca 3 months later, indicate that the "Bleeding knife of Zodiac" indeed could be a true Zodiac letter.

I have reseached to try find any newsreports that mention the lake Berryessa murder car door writing; "By knife" and have not found any in 1969.
Actually I have not been able to find ANY mentioning of the "by knife " until nenwsreports in recent years.

Does anyone know when the info that Zodiac wrote "by knife" on the car door sep 27, 1969, was first released to the public?

In this picture to the right, you can see that LE has concealed the writing "by knife".

Additional reseach on this matter:

Theforeigner, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:27 pm

Finally, here it is, a suspected letter from Zodiac…"THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE"

The FBI did not give me any additional info about this letter, no facts, no dates, nothing.

Morf according to this Chris Yarbrough info the;

"THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" and "THE BLEEDING KNIFE" is one and the same letter page 1 and page 2.
Sent Dec 16, 1969.
It seems to me that you have posted thise "two letters" as if they are two different letters, but according to the Chris Yarbrough info,
they are not.

http://zodiackillertruth.com/bknife.htm

Bleeding Knife

Below is a transcription of a letter written by the Zodiac killer. Grammatical and spelling errors are included as written.

Date: Postmarked December 16, 1969

Comments: Sent to San Francisco Examiner. Postmarked Fairfield, CA.

A copy or transcription of this letter in its entirety is unavailable to the public. Here is what we do know about this missive:

The letter had two pages. The first page began:

"This is the Zodiac speaking I just want to tell you this state is in trouble"
The letter contained the following phrases (spelling):

for the goverment
and

don’t foreget
The second page contained a drawing of a knife and the words:

"The Bleeding Knife of Zodiac"
Investigators from the F.B.I. concluded in a memo that this letter "may contain some distortion" and was "not written as freely" as other "threatening letters." The memo goes on to say that characteristics indicate this letter "may have been prepared by writer other threatening letters this matter."

rand, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:32 pm

"go for the government life"

I read that to mean TRY TO TAKE THE LIVES OF GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES – Cops, military, politicians, bureacrats.

He says "this STATE is in trouble." Then he threatens COPS in FAIRFIELD.

I think he is threatening "GOVERNMENT LIFE" – the lifes of government workers.

That’s how I read it as well.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:54 pm

Yes page one is "state is in trouble" and page two is "bleeding knife". That is made clear by the FBI memo below. I assume Morf knew that but posted them as he did so that we might have seperate discussions on them.

You can see they sent Morf the wrong envelope, seen below. They sent him the one that had the CANCER FLT 555. I have already requested the 12/16/69 Fairfield envelope, hopefully I will get it.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:00 pm

Is this letter real or fake? I don’t know.

The FBI handwriting expert says that while they contain some "distortion" and were not written as "freely" as some others, it was determined they DID have similar characteristics indicating that they "may have" been written by the Zodiac.

They have never been seen by the public before. They contain a threat to kill 9 people in Sacramento. This letter was written 12/16/69. The next possible Zodiac murder was in March 1970 in Sacramento – Nurse Judith Hakari. Followed by the probable Zodiac murder of Nancy Bennallack in Sacramento in October 1970. At the time this letter was written, there was no Zodaic connection to Sacramento – yet two of the next probable Zodiac murders were in Sacramento. If this letter was from a "hoaxer", how did he know where the Zodiac was going to kill?

Also, both this 12/16/69 Fairfield letter and the 12/7/69 Fairfield letter make threats against police – and the confirmed Zodiac letter of 4/20/70 said there was more glory in killing a "cop than a cid".

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:01 pm

Soooo if he is threatening government symbols…ie) people…then in essence
he is threatening to go "postal". That usually indicates a person with a big
grudge or grievance towards a particular group.

I mean if the Z wanted to just be a serial killer…he didn’t have to threaten government and
LE. It does appear on the surface that his primary motivation is terrorism and I
am still trying to figure out what his secondary motivation is…I think it depends on whether or not
he actually had a mental illness and/or just a run of the mill nasty nature criminal sort. The text does seem to almost be metered spacing compared to the more hurried style of
others letter with text. Do we know if this was done with ball point or felt tip?

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:07 pm

I think a rather large clue as to the letters’ authenticity is contained in the QDE statement, under the "Results of examination"…Obviously, anything like this coming in at the time would need to be thoroughly examined. However…

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:11 pm

Why mention killing cops in Fairlfield in 2 letter weeks apart? Anyone know of some particular incident with this Fairfield in say the recent history before the letters? Something reported that got his attention?

I wonder how many of these letters they got during these crimes from wackos just for curiosity sake? Anyone got a guess? Did LE ever just throw away the letters back then when they thought they are crackpots without processing??

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:41 pm

"go for the government life"

I read that to mean TRY TO TAKE THE LIVES OF GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES – Cops, military, politicians, bureacrats.

He says "this STATE is in trouble." Then he threatens COPS in FAIRFIELD.

I think he is threatening "GOVERNMENT LIFE" – the lifes of government workers.

That’s how I read it as well.

I was in a bit of a hurry today, so I did put them in 2 separate topics…sorry

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:39 am

This is just… wow! Great job!

Sorry if this has already been said, but the big Z symbol, surrounded with four smaller ones kind of looks like a planet with four smaller moons. So I just did a google search and found that Jupiter has four moons and a ring around the middle. So then I did a quick search on the meanings of Jupiter and found these:

The god Jupiter was often depicted in the center of the Zodiac in ancient Greece and Rome, as the wise sage that’s a guide to a universal order.

and

Jupiter guides us to a mission greater than ourselves; its sign and house position are clues to following that path.

Thought that might be some food for thought.

EDIT:

Also, from Wikipedia, therre is this:

n Roman mythology, Jupiter or Jove was the king of the gods, and the god of sky and thunder. He is the equivalent of Zeus AKA. West, in the Greek pantheon. He was called Iuppiter (or Diespiter) Optimus Maximus ("Father God the Best and Greatest") As the patron deity of ancient Rome, he ruled over laws and social order.

Azazel, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:44 am

Yeah, this is beyond great to finally get the letter. Thanks Morf and Ak for the effort.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:40 am

Fantastic job Morph and AK getting these two letters out , great stuff. I shall have a better look at them later (just up over here).

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:10 am

Interesting that he writes ‘you better print’, echoes of telling the Chronicle that ‘Must print this part in paper and be sure to print’ on the bomb letter. I think it looks good as a possible Z comm and for it not to be ruled out means it has potential. He also begins it with, This is the Zodiac Speaking, which most of his official letters started with (Ten of them), the red phantom, exorcist etc did not.

Edit:Also look at the use of ‘I will’ like the Belli letter. A gap between the first line and what he wants to say just like the Phillips letter/ John’s letter/ Mikado letter and also the Belli letter begins Dear Melvin then a line between till he begins This is. If it’s a hoaxer then he’s seen the actual letters I think.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:43 am

…. Concerning the Lake Berryess murder:

As far as I know, the police did NOT share the "by knife" writing on the car door, they kept that a secret from the public.
SO if that is the case, and I sure do belive that it is, then I would say that the VERY close match between "by knife" on the car door written Sep 27, 1969 and the word "knife" written in the possible Zodiac letter postmarked Dec 16, 1969, ca 3 months later, indicate that the "Bleeding knife of Zodiac" indeed could be a true Zodiac letter.

I have reseached to try find any newsreports that mention the lake Berryessa murder car door writing; "By knife" and have not found any in 1969.
Actually I have not been able to find ANY mentioning of the "by knife " until nenwsreports in recent years ……

Excellent points made here by TF. I agree that the "By knife" writing is similar. And I too cannot find any news reports in 1969 that would have allowed the 12/69 writer to have seen an image of the car door & its writing in order to copy it closely. So to me, at this stage, this appears a significant observation… well done TF.

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:38 am

Very good points everybody! I am sure that stories of Bryan & Hartnell were all over the papers after the Z attack at Berryessa, and the fact they were stabbed was in the papers if I am not mistaken, certainly by the time the BLEEDING KNIFE letter was written, it seems everyone would have known Z stabbed them, so although I think that it could be a real Z letter, the fact he mentions a knife isnt that important, even IF the car door "by knife" wasnt shared with the public.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:09 am

MORF – AND OTHERS –

What we are saying is that the writing of "knife" on this letter seems almost an exact match to the way "knife" was written on the Lake Berryessa car door.

Excellent work by The Foreigner:

The word KNIFE in both looks similar. In my opinion, the K on the car door is more like Z’s real, undisguised handwriting, and the bleeding knife may be his after he disguised it.

Concerning the Lake Berryess murder:

As far as I know, the police did NOT share the "by knife" writing on the car door, they kept that a secret from the public.
SO if that is the case, and I sure do belive that it is, then I would say that the VERY close match between "by knife" on the car door written Sep 27, 1969 and the word "knife" written in the possible Zodiac letter postmarked Dec 16, 1969, ca 3 months later, indicate that the "Bleeding knife of Zodiac" indeed could be a true Zodiac letter.

I have reseached to try find any newsreports that mention the lake Berryessa murder car door writing; "By knife" and have not found any in 1969.
Actually I have not been able to find ANY mentioning of the "by knife " until nenwsreports in recent years.

Does anyone know when the info that Zodiac wrote "by knife" on the car door sep 27, 1969, was first released to the public?

In this picture to the right, you can see that LE has concealed the writing "by knife".

Additional reseach on this matter:

Theforeigner, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:16 am

Very good points everybody! I am sure that stories of Bryan & Hartnell were all over the papers after the Z attack at Berryessa, and the fact they were stabbed was in the papers if I am not mistaken, certainly by the time the BLEEDING KNIFE letter was written, it seems everyone would have known Z stabbed them, so although I think that it could be a real Z letter, the fact he mentions a knife isnt that important, even IF the car door "by knife" wasnt shared with the public.

Morf and tahoe too (in response to one of your posts about this issue), it is not using the word "knife" that is important here, it is the WAY it was written that indicate that it was the real Zodiac.
The car door "By knife" is written in a pretty significant way, and the word "knife" in "the Bleeding knife" letter is written in the very same significant style, THAT is what makes a connection between the car door writing and "the Bleeding knife" letter.

And as I wrote before; if the car door "by knife" handwriting had not been published to the public by Dec 16, 1969, how could the writer of the bleeding knife letter write the word "knife" in the very same handwriting style as Zodiac did on the car door, unless he was the very same man who wrote on the car door Sep 27, 1969??

In other terms; how would a hoax know how to copy the actual handwriting of the car door word "knife", when the writing had not been made public?

Se what I mean?

Here check out how VERY simelar the two words "Knife" is, and other letters and numbers too IMO:

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:20 am

Very good points everybody! I am sure that stories of Bryan & Hartnell were all over the papers after the Z attack at Berryessa, and the fact they were stabbed was in the papers if I am not mistaken, certainly by the time the BLEEDING KNIFE letter was written, it seems everyone would have known Z stabbed them, so although I think that it could be a real Z letter, the fact he mentions a knife isnt that important, even IF the car door "by knife" wasnt shared with the public.

Morf and tahoe too (in response to one of your posts about this issue), it is not using the word "knife" that is important here, it is the WAY it was written that indicate that it was the real Zodiac.
The car door "By knife" is written in a pretty significant way, and the word "knife" in "the Bleeding knife" letter is written in the very same significant style, THAT is what makes a connection between the car door writing and "the Bleeding knife" letter.

And as I wrote before; if the car door "by knife" handwriting had not been published to the public by Dec 16, 1969, how could the writer of the bleeding knife letter write the word "knife" in the very same handwriting style as Zodiac did on the car door, unless he was the very same man who wrote on the car door Sep 27, 1969??

In other terms; how would a hoax know how to copy the actual handwriting of the car door word "knife", when the writing had not been made public?

Se what I mean?

Here check out how VERY simelar the two words "Knife" is, and other letters and numbers too IMO:

Okay, that makes alot of sense Foreigner & AK, and thats a very valid point you both have. If the image was never seen by the publi at the time of the BLEEDING KNIFE letter was written, how could a copycat copy it so well??? Very interesting indeed…maybe this is a legitimate Z letter, and if that’s the case, then some people may be prematurely dismissing it as a hoax.

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:24 am

Upon closer examination, the writing seems like a match in my opinion, especially the lower case J. As I always have said, the car door writing is likely Z’s most realistic writing, that was not altered since he wanted to get out of there asap, so with the letter he sent, he would have had more time to alter it and disguise it.

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:26 am

I removed the photo of the car doors in two of the above posts as it was way too big, and stretched the forum page too far out. Before putting it back into the post, please shrink it down a bit. Here is a good site for shrinking photos:
http://www.shrinkpictures.com/

Theforeigner, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:32 am

Upon closer examination, the writing seems like a match in my opinion, especially the lower case J. As I always have said, the car door writing is likely Z’s most realistic writing, that was not altered since he wanted to get out of there asap, so with the letter he sent, he would have had more time to alter it and disguise it.

Glad you see it know:)

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:33 am

Upon closer examination, the writing seems like a match in my opinion, especially the lower case J. As I always have said, the car door writing is likely Z’s most realistic writing, that was not altered since he wanted to get out of there asap, so with the letter he sent, he would have had more time to alter it and disguise it.

Glad you see it know:)

I am no writing expert, but I am going to say this is a legit Z letter- as long as no image of the car door was available at the time

Theforeigner, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:54 am

Upon closer examination, the writing seems like a match in my opinion, especially the lower case J. As I always have said, the car door writing is likely Z’s most realistic writing, that was not altered since he wanted to get out of there asap, so with the letter he sent, he would have had more time to alter it and disguise it.

Glad you see it know:)

I am no writing expert, but I am going to say this is a legit Z letter- as long as no image of the car door was available at the time

I agree.
The only other explanation would be if somone from the LE involved in the Lake Berryess murder investigation wrote the letter because he had seen the writing on the door.
But then again remember that the writing "by knife" was consealed in the pictures were the door is in the evidence room, so who knows how many/few within the police force had seen the "by knife" writing.
I tend to belive it is a true Z letter.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:57 am

Yes. We need our Bay Area friends here to scour library copies of newspapers between the Berryessa date and the date of this letter… to see if a picture of the car door (showing the word "KNIFE") was printed.

Probably just need to check the main Napa paper &/or the Vallejo Times Herald &/or the SF Chron. If it was printed anywhere it would have been in one of those for sure, i guess.

Zam, Sandy, Bentley, any other locals??? It basically means checking every day’s paper for about a 11 week period. While doing it, it would be a good idea to note/copy ALL articles mentioning Z (as what was commonly known via news reports is important for validating this and other Z documents).

tahoe27, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:18 am

Guess I’m the naysayer here. The big ole party-pooper.

The word "knife" you guys think is a match.

The "k" looks like it was written as an "n" or an "h" originally. It doesn’t match the "k" on the car door–which has a separate stroke.

The "n" and the "i"…maybe although the car door "n" has a lot more of a line sticking up and the "i" by Z has a dot.

The "f" not a match

The "e" not a match. (In knife at least–not a match as it has a straight line)

At this point with comparing the word "Knife" I just don’t see what you guys see.

The letter too. If someone is going to pretend to be Zodiac and write a letter, they better be able to somewhat copy his handwriting as well as his missives. Of course they would write "this is the Zodiac speaking", possibly threaten cops, etc.

I don’t even think this was a good try. But that’s just me.

Again, the fact you got your hands on this Morf is awesome and I have seen this no where else–either the letter or the drawing of the knife, so just because I don’t think this is in any way Zodiac, doesn’t mean I don’t think your efforts here have been nothing but AMAZING and who knows..eventually you might find something that no one noticed before and THAT is the wonderful part here about all of your efforts–whether we agree or disagree, you are really putting forth an effort and that is truly a good thing.

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:24 am

I appreciate the words Tahoe.

I do have to say that I disagree with you on the writing, as I think there are some similarities. Remember, after Berryessa, Z probably didnt want to hang out all day writing the note on the car door, and probably wanted to get out of there rather quickly, so I can see the writing on the door being his true writing. In the knife letter, there are similarities, even though as the FBI put it, there were attempts to change the writing. I think that would explain the differences.

I think the letter V and the letter J are close to matches in both.

That being said, I cant see us coming to a solid conclusion if the FBI couldnt and we are not writing experts.

Theforeigner, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:25 am

Guess I’m the naysayer here. The big ole party-pooper.

The word "knife" you guys think is a match.

The "k" looks like it was written as an "n" or an "h" originally. It doesn’t match the "k" on the car door–which has a separate stroke.

The "n" and the "i"…maybe although the car door "n" has a lot more of a line sticking up and the "i" by Z has a dot.

The "f" not a match

The "e" not a match. (In knife at least–not a match as it has a straight line)

At this point with comparing the word "Knife" I just don’t see what you guys see.

The letter too. If someone is going to pretend to be Zodiac and write a letter, they better be able to somewhat copy his handwriting as well as his missives. Of course they would write "this is the Zodiac speaking", possibly threaten cops, etc.

I don’t even think this was a good try. But that’s just me.

Again, the fact you got your hands on this Morf is awesome and I have seen this no where else–either the letter or the drawing of the knife, so just because I don’t think this is in any way Zodiac, doesn’t mean I don’t think your efforts here have been nothing but AMAZING and who knows..eventually you might find something that no one noticed before and THAT is the wonderful part here about all of your efforts–whether we agree or disagree, you are really putting forth an effort and that is truly a good thing.

Dear tahoe, you are the nices "naysayer" I know and please know that I do respect you opinion, though I have to disagree with you on this one.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:27 am

INTERESTING FACT – IN THIS POSSIBLE ZODIAC LETTER OF 12/16/69 THE THREAT IS MADE TO TAKE "GOVERNMENT LIFE" AND "COPS" AS WELL AS KILL 9 IN SACRAMENTO.

NANCY BENNALLACK WAS A GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE IN SACRAMENTO, SHE WAS A COURT REPORTER.

IN A CONFIRMED ZODIAC LETTER OF 4/20/70 ZODIAC SAID THERE WAS MORE ‘GLORY" IN "KILLING A COP THAN CID" AND LATER ZODIAC WOULD HINT THAT HE KILLED SFPD OFFICER RICHARD RADETICH IN JUNE 1970.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:29 am

If we can say there are similarities in this letter, then all the letters mailed in might as well be Z’s too. They pretty much ALL have "similarities", but in this one, tone, topic, writing–not Z imo.

If we say that Z’s writing style may have changed, etc., then we open the door to just about anybody.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:31 am

The match between the LB "knife" and this letter "knife" is not perfect, but it is far better than you would expect from a hoaxer, if the LB "knife" was never published prior to 12/16/69.

Also – I think we can all agree on this point – it seems to be the case that either ALL the Zodiac Fairfield/Sacramento letters are FAKE, or, all are REAL.

There are dozens of clear fakes in the FBI files, and dozens the FBI or police ruled were probable fakes.

These Fairfield materials were ones they were on the fence about, but they did say they had similar characteristics and "may have" been done by Zodiac.

Also, the FBI did attempt to decode the Zodiac cipher in the 12/7/69 Fairfield letter.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:33 am

Guess I’m the naysayer here. The big ole party-pooper.

The word "knife" you guys think is a match.

The "k" looks like it was written as an "n" or an "h" originally. It doesn’t match the "k" on the car door–which has a separate stroke.

The "n" and the "i"…maybe although the car door "n" has a lot more of a line sticking up and the "i" by Z has a dot.

The "f" not a match

The "e" not a match. (In knife at least–not a match as it has a straight line)

At this point with comparing the word "Knife" I just don’t see what you guys see.

***

The letter too. If someone is going to pretend to be Zodiac and write a letter, they better be able to somewhat copy his handwriting as well as his missives. Of course they would write "this is the Zodiac speaking", possibly threaten cops, etc.

I don’t even think this was a good try. But that’s just me.

Again, the fact you got your hands on this Morf is awesome and I have seen this no where else–either the letter or the drawing of the knife, so just because I don’t think this is in any way Zodiac, doesn’t mean I don’t think your efforts here have been nothing but AMAZING and who knows..eventually you might find something that no one noticed before and THAT is the wonderful part here about all of your efforts–whether we agree or disagree, you are really putting forth an effort and that is truly a good thing.

Dear tahoe, you are the nices "naysayer" I know and please know that I do respect you opinion, though I have to disagree with you on this one.

Thanks TF. I just think if you guys think the K-F & E match….ya ‘all need glasses. :suspect: :pirat: :scratch:

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:35 am

Look at the April 78 letter – most experts think that if a letter shows TOO PERFECT a match, it may be a fake!

Zamantha, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:51 am

I agree, this is a match. For me it has the whole Z feel to it. As far as my eye can see, the writing is a match….
I find these new finds VERY exciting. When I first look at it, it felt right… like Z like. Then the more I scrutinize the
whole thing, and also look at what others are seeing. I say MATCH.

I also say thanks for everyone for continuing to really look and ponder these!

I agree, also respect Tahoe’s opinions. But on this one I agree to disagree

Theforeigner, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:14 pm

Guess I’m the naysayer here. The big ole party-pooper.

The word "knife" you guys think is a match.

The "k" looks like it was written as an "n" or an "h" originally. It doesn’t match the "k" on the car door–which has a separate stroke.

The "n" and the "i"…maybe although the car door "n" has a lot more of a line sticking up and the "i" by Z has a dot.

The "f" not a match

The "e" not a match. (In knife at least–not a match as it has a straight line)

At this point with comparing the word "Knife" I just don’t see what you guys see.

The letter too. If someone is going to pretend to be Zodiac and write a letter, they better be able to somewhat copy his handwriting as well as his missives. Of course they would write "this is the Zodiac speaking", possibly threaten cops, etc.

I don’t even think this was a good try. But that’s just me.

Again, the fact you got your hands on this Morf is awesome and I have seen this no where else–either the letter or the drawing of the knife, so just because I don’t think this is in any way Zodiac, doesn’t mean I don’t think your efforts here have been nothing but AMAZING and who knows..eventually you might find something that no one noticed before and THAT is the wonderful part here about all of your efforts–whether we agree or disagree, you are really putting forth an effort and that is truly a good thing.

Dear tahoe, you are the nices "naysayer" I know and please know that I do respect you opinion, though I have to disagree with you on this one.

Thanks TF. I just think if you guys think the K-F & E match….ya ‘all need glasses. :suspect: :pirat: :scratch:

I have now sent the new letter and the Lake Berryess door to my x-husband and have him take a look at it.
He knows the Zodiac case pretty well, especially the letters/handwriting side of the case due to that he has been my consulter in handwriting matters through the last 4 years,

His educations are typographer, graphic designer and he has a pennmaship. He has worked with this stuf for over 30 years and he is VERY good.
Of course he is not a documnet expert, but it´s pretty close IMO.

I´ll let you know what he says about it.

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:14 pm

Someone pointed out on ZKfacts.com that the phrase "HA HA HA ", as in this possible letter, appears in the Jenner Beach Journal at the scene of the Cutshall- Allen murders. Its been a while since I read about that case or saw any writing, so I did some double checking, and sure enough, as seen here:
http://www.wzzm13.com/pdf/050206-pressrelease.pdf
The phrase "HA HA HA" does appear in the book. And pics of that Jenner scene remind me of Domingos/Edwards scene. Creepy. Maybe a coincidence, but interesting.

bruce3, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:30 pm

Fairfield is where Darlene’s ex-husband worked at the newspaper for a sort time.I don’t know if Z had this in mind if this was a real Z communication or if he would engage in such things.

You lose much of the detail in using a xerox. Most judges won’t allow copies in a forgery trial.I there is an envelope then the stamp or flap (if a prepaid postage envelope like the 12/10/69 deal)can be used in a DNA test.

The paste-up was sent to Sacramento Bee 12/10/69 so there was at least one SAC Z connect then.

There is a supposed Z letter by Z to the DMV that TV may bring to light in the future.

There were certainly things Z could have done for letter verification.He had enough of Stine’s shirt since 10/11/69 to enclose a swatch as he did, in say, the Belli letter.Strange.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:43 pm

Good points.

What is interesting is it seems law enforcement was on the fence about these Fairfield/Sacramento letters, and I don’t think they got much play in the press. If they were real, could that have inspired Zodiac to send the shirt bit, so he wouldn’t be ignored?

Also, this is about unsolved couple murders:

http://www.truecrimediary.com/index.cfm … ases&id=17

Burgess was eventually caught, and his DNA did not match DNA found at Jenner Beach, but who knows if that is really DNA from the killer?

Someone is out there killing couples. Probably not Zodiac IMO, but he is out there.

This is the "R" found in the Jenner Beach journal.

In those Jenner Beach journals, there was also discussion of "Spider Man", and there was a "Ha Ha Ha", similar to what we see on this 12/16/69 letter.

But I think some Jack the Ripper letters also had "ha ha ha".

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:51 pm

Here is one thing not mentioned.

There have been at least three "fake" Zodiacs – in New York, Japan and North Carolina. All wrote "fake" Zodiac letters – they were not the man who was the SF Zodiac. Yet all three of these "fakes" did kill people.

If all the Fairfield/Sacramento Zodiac letters are fake, we have someone who spent a lot of time on this project. It can’t be dismissed that he could – just like the NY, Japan and NC "Fake Zodiacs", also be a killer.

bruce3, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:09 pm

There are two HA HA’s (there are three Ha’s in the newly uncovered letter-it should be noted there are no Ha’s of any kind in canonical Z letters or postcards) in the all upper case typed Zodiac killer note as found in Doreen Gaul’s room by LAPD November 1969.LT.Deemer told us they found a copy not an original.This was a surprise as we knew the ’66 Confession was a copy not an original.I spoke to him by phone once and got one or two letters from him.
I contacted his widow by letter and she searched ,but could not find find an original,or anymore info so Det.Earl was correct.We gave his ‘murder book’ and this typed ’69 note to Ramparts Div.There is a photo of this presentation.They now have a complete set of Deemer’s ‘murder books’ as they were called and the ’69 note.

All speculation-accusation (what’s new!) by Butterfield that we ‘hoaxed’ that ’69 note are absolutely and totally untrue!!! I would sure as hades had done a much better job than that LOL

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:29 pm

I very much doubt the Gaul – Sharp letter was from the real SF Zodiac, but it does share a "ha ha" in common with this 12/16/69 letter (2 vs. 3, though, and both may have been inspired by Jack the Ripper), and there is also a slight similarity in the "dripping" effect on the Gaul – Sharp letter and the "Bleeding Knife of Zodiac" dripping. Both seem to be evoking the same image anyway, blood dripping off a knife. And both may have been inspired by this Jack the Ripper letter, which also has a knife dripping blood at the top of the letter, and a "Ha Ha" in the middle.

Gaul – Sharp murder was 11/21/69?

Zamantha, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:30 pm

This was posted on Mike B’s site by Deb S.
I thought it was a good statement, an worth reading.

The one thing I find interesting about this letter is the list of cities. Besides the three places where Zodiac was known to have committed crimes and/or sent letters, San Jose, Fairfield, Sacramento and Oakland are listed.

There were alleged letters sent to Fairfield never authenticated. There was the Want Zodiac/Flt 555 paste up letter sent to the Sacramento Bee. The woman who was the secretary to the detectives at Oakland PD received an alleged phone call from Zodiac and a phone call was made to San Jose CHP supposedly by Zodiac threatening to kill 5 officers and 5 people. None of these events were widely known about at the time except, perhaps, the Oakland phone call.

There are lots of cities in the Bay Area but the writer of this letter named four cities that did have dubious Zodiac connections. It makes me wonder if the person who sent this letter was also behind the phone calls and letters made or sent to the four cities.

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:24 pm

This was posted on Mike B’s site by Deb S.
I thought it was a good statement, an worth reading.

The one thing I find interesting about this letter is the list of cities. Besides the three places where Zodiac was known to have committed crimes and/or sent letters, San Jose, Fairfield, Sacramento and Oakland are listed.

There were alleged letters sent to Fairfield never authenticated. There was the Want Zodiac/Flt 555 paste up letter sent to the Sacramento Bee. The woman who was the secretary to the detectives at Oakland PD received an alleged phone call from Zodiac and a phone call was made to San Jose CHP supposedly by Zodiac threatening to kill 5 officers and 5 people. None of these events were widely known about at the time except, perhaps, the Oakland phone call.

There are lots of cities in the Bay Area but the writer of this letter named four cities that did have dubious Zodiac connections. It makes me wonder if the person who sent this letter was also behind the phone calls and letters made or sent to the four cities.

Thats interesting

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:50 pm

This letter threatens 3 in SF – after Paul Stine, did Graysmith have Zodiac as a suspect in 3 SF murders of young woman, most with medical connections?

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:07 pm

Ricardo has put up the 12/16/69 possible Zodiac letter postmarked from Fairfield at his site:

http://www.mk-zodiac.com/Communication1 … eport.html

As usual, Ricardo does some excellent research and presents a fair evaluation of this letter.

His initial research seems to confirm what The Foreigner thought, that the "by knife" part of the Lake Berryessa car door writing was NOT revealed to the public prior to 12/16/69, and indeed may not have been revealed as late as 1971.

Given what seems to be the strong match between the "knife" writing on the car door and in this letter, absent a policeman or reporter hoaxing it, this lends some support to the notion this may be a real Zodiac communication.

There are several other interesting observations there as well.

Good job Ricardo, and thanks for acknowledging the role of Morf, me and this site.

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:35 pm

Ricardo has put up the 12/16/69 possible Zodiac letter postmarked from Fairfield at his site:

http://www.mk-zodiac.com/Communication1 … eport.html

As usual, Ricardo does some excellent research and presents a fair evaluation of this letter.

His initial research seems to confirm what The Foreigner thought, that the "by knife" part of the Lake Berryessa car door writing was NOT revealed to the public prior to 12/16/69, and indeed may not have been revealed as late as 1971.

Given what seems to be the strong match between the "knife" writing on the car door and in this letter, absent a policeman or reporter hoaxing it, this lends some support to the notion this may be a real Zodiac communication.

There are several other interesting observations there as well.

Good job Ricardo, and thanks for acknowledging the role of Morf, me and this site.

Good work everyone. Get the truth out there!

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:30 pm

I like the "knife" thing very much.

But the big problem I have with this one is that Zodiac was wittering away incessantly about his bus bomb in the letters before & after this one. But here he doesn’t mention his beloved bomb at all. And Fairfield writes like a genuine 8 year old.

One possibility I suppose is that Fairfield was the Berryessa copycat . All a copycat needed was the symbol, a hood and the previous crime dates. Admittedly highly speculative.

tracers, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:59 pm

When I look at this letter, I don’t get the impression that Zodiac wrote it. The language seems stilted and doesn’t have the same mocking tone of many of his other missives—at least I don’t sense it.

As for the Bleeding Knife page, some of the letters are similar to the way Zodiac made them, but this could be explained by the fact that newspapers published copies of Zodiac’s letters, so a hoaxer would have a way of knowing how Zodiac made his K’s, etc.

As for the fact that this letter mentions a bleeding knife, so what? The news reports of the day stated that a knife was used in the attack.

I think the people posting in this thread have raised some VERY GOOD points for and against this being a Zodiac letter. Unless more information comes to light, I have to say that I don’t think it is authentic. Hope I am wrong.

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:13 pm

No doubt that it could be a copycat. But then again, the word KNIFE is similar to the Berryessa car door as it was written, and its been pretty much shown that the car door photo or full contents was not avail to the public in Dec 69

tracers, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:23 pm

Well, if Zodiac wrote the word "knife" on the car door, wouldn’t the letters more or less match the way he made the same letters in some of his writings? Someone would not have had to seen the words "by knife" in order to print the word "knife" in a similar fashion in the Bleeding Knife page.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:30 pm

I also do not think this is from the Zodiac from my first impression.
But….The way the writer makes sure the list includes cops for Fairfield
is interesting. Does not seem like something a hoaxster would do.
It is like the writer remembered when writing Fairfield 3 that he wanted
to specify "cops", not "times" and had to correct it with the arrow.

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:46 pm

Here is one thing not mentioned.

There have been at least three "fake" Zodiacs – in New York, Japan and North Carolina. All wrote "fake" Zodiac letters – they were not the man who was the SF Zodiac. Yet all three of these "fakes" did kill people.

If all the Fairfield/Sacramento Zodiac letters are fake, we have someone who spent a lot of time on this project. It can’t be dismissed that he could – just like the NY, Japan and NC "Fake Zodiacs", also be a killer.

To be honest, Azuma (the dude from Japan) didn’t even style himself a ‘Zodiac’ (he used the monikers ‘SHOOL [sic] KILLER’ and ‘Seito Sakakibara’), although he did loosely paraphrase some of Zodiac’s lines. And what people report as a ‘crossed-circle symbol’ on Azuma’s letters actually looks more like a child’s pinwheel or a lollipop. To call him a Zodiac copycat is, IMO, kinda innacurate.

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:25 pm

Well, if Zodiac wrote the word "knife" on the car door, wouldn’t the letters more or less match the way he made the same letters in some of his writings? Someone would not have had to seen the words "by knife" in order to print the word "knife" in a similar fashion in the Bleeding Knife page.

No, we are saying that if this was the work of a copycat, how could they copy closely the word KNIFE if it was never released to the papers? Dont get me wrong, the writer of the bleeding knife tried to alter their writing, even the FBI report states that. But I think if Z’s natural writing was what we saw on the car door, his altered disguised writing may be what we see in the bleeding knife letter. There are similarities, and of course they dont look exactly like the car door, because if it is really from Z, he tried to alter his writing.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:27 pm

Wikipedia and most media reports call him a "Zodiac copycat" or "Zodiac influenced". From wiki:

On May 27, 1997, the head of Jun Hase (土師 淳, Hase Jun?, ca. 1986 – May 27, 1997), a special education pupil at Tainohata Elementary School, was found in front of the school gate hours before pupils arrived for classes. Hase had been beheaded with a hand saw, with further mutilations being done before being left in front of the school, for students to discover when they arrived in the morning.[1] A note, written in red pen, was found stuffed in his mouth, identifying the killer as "Sakakibara." The note read:

"This is the beginning of the game… You police guys stop me if you can… I desperately want to see people die, it is a thrill for me to commit murder. A bloody judgment is needed for my years of great bitterness."

Additionally, some English was on the note as well: "shooll kill [sic]".

Police commented that the style of Hase’s killing and the note was reminiscent of that of the Zodiac murders in the San Francisco area during the late 1960s

AK – Anyway, my point was that we have at least three cases, to debatable and varying degrees, were Zodiac copycats or Zodiac influenced persons really did kill people.

Given the number of Fairfield/Sacramento communications, if this was a hoaxer, I still find it interesting and wouldn’t dismiss him as a murder suspect.

I do think the evidence leans towards this being from Zodiac.

Unlike some sites, we think it better to present all the evidence, let it be debated and discussed, and let everyone come to their own conclusions.

tracers, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:32 pm

Well, if Zodiac wrote the word "knife" on the car door, wouldn’t the letters more or less match the way he made the same letters in some of his writings? Someone would not have had to seen the words "by knife" in order to print the word "knife" in a similar fashion in the Bleeding Knife page.

No, we are saying that if this was the work of a copycat, how could they copy closely the word KNIFE if it was never released to the papers? Dont get me wrong, the writer of the bleeding knife tried to alter their writing, even the FBI report states that. But I think if Z’s natural writing was what we saw on the car door, his altered disguised writing may be what we see in the bleeding knife letter. There are similarities, and of course they dont look exactly like the car door, because if it is really from Z, he tried to alter his writing.

The point I am making is that the writer did not HAVE to see the "by Knife" on the car door in order for the word "knife" in the Bleeding Knife page to resemble the word "knife" on the car door. The writer could have looked at Zodiac’s published letters for a sense of how Zodiac made his k’s, n’s, i’s, etc.

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:41 pm

Well, if Zodiac wrote the word "knife" on the car door, wouldn’t the letters more or less match the way he made the same letters in some of his writings? Someone would not have had to seen the words "by knife" in order to print the word "knife" in a similar fashion in the Bleeding Knife page.

No, we are saying that if this was the work of a copycat, how could they copy closely the word KNIFE if it was never released to the papers? Dont get me wrong, the writer of the bleeding knife tried to alter their writing, even the FBI report states that. But I think if Z’s natural writing was what we saw on the car door, his altered disguised writing may be what we see in the bleeding knife letter. There are similarities, and of course they dont look exactly like the car door, because if it is really from Z, he tried to alter his writing.

The point I am making is that the writer did not HAVE to see the "by Knife" on the car door in order for the word "knife" in the Bleeding Knife page to resemble the word "knife" on the car door. The writer could have looked at Zodiac’s published letters for a sense of how Zodiac made his k’s, n’s, i’s, etc.

That is also true. If its a fake, I would say they did a pretty good job. The FBI was stumped, and I have a feeling if they were, we will be too.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:42 pm

Tracers – Of course that is possible.

But the "knife" on the car door is distinctive, the letters, the spacing, the feel. The "knife" on this letter looks very similar in the writing, the spacing and the feel.

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:43 pm

I have now heard from 3 different sources that Tom V claims to have posted this on his forum 12 years ago, but removed it because it was not "authenticated". I personally dont believe that it was ever on there, and everyone I know of that has been a longtime member of his forum doesnt seem to recall it either. If it was there, it would have made its way onto the internet, as everything else has.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:46 pm

It is an odd claim, because Tom has up the May 1978 possible Zodiac letter, the one with "Chief Piggy" and the Manson reference, and to my knowledge NO expert has ever authenticated that letter. Yet he has it up. And this 12/16/69 letter the FBI says it DOES have characteristics similar to other Z letters and "MAY HAVE" been written by Zodiac.

In any event, why not leave it up and let people decide for themselves?

For those who are friends with Tom, ask him if he will email the envelope the 12/16/69 letter came in. Tell him you want to post it here to prove that it was Tom who got this first.

If he does, then he is telling the truth. If he doesn’t…

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:49 pm

For those who are friends with Tom, ask him if he will email the envelope the 12/16/69 letter came in. Tell him you want to post it here to prove that it was Tom who got this first.

If he does, then he is telling the truth. If he doesn’t…

I dont really care if he found it first, its not like it’s a competition. Just be honest with your peers.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:08 pm

Morf, Zam and I all agreed that we would share any Zodiac documents we uncovered with all major Zodiac sites, regardless if we were on friendly terms or not, or what the rivalries of the moment were. These letters were sent to Tom, Mike B, Howard Davis, Doug Oswell, Chris Y, Ricardo and Roland. Most were appreciative and thankful. Some were not. So be it.

We are trying to focus on solving the case, and sharing information helps further that goal. We will continue to do so, and continue to have members here who are members at all other boards.

Thanks to all who are working on the case, and have taken time to study, do research and offer opinions.

Nin, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:10 pm

Fantastic work, morf and AK ! Kudos and many thanks for sharing the great find!

Now, thinking about the "State in trouble", it could really mean trouble for the State or the Government if Zodiac was an agent "gone bad", right?

Could it be as simple as:

Since the writer aligned the 5 symbols next to the first of the 5 crosshair symbols I am including this one crosshair symbol in the solution. Looks like the 4 other crosshair symbols (3 small ones and the big one) were to disguise the first one. Just saying..

Y = WHY
I = I
N = AN
H = AITCH
N = AN
D = D

WHY I AN AGENT … "YOU BETTER PRINT WHY I AM AN AGENT"

-Nin

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:33 am

Something very interesting I just noticed.

It seems likely either all the Fairfield letters are real, or all are fake.

Look at the 12/20/69 Zodiac letter to Belli:

Now look at the 12/7/69 Zodiac letter from Fairfield:

We know the 12/20/69 letter is real, confirmed handwriting and a bit of the Stine shirt.

So if the Fairfield letters are all fake, from a hoaxer, how is it that the langauge on the 12/7/69 Fairfield letter – "I just need HELP" – matches up so well with the langauge and pose of the 12/20/69 letter – "please HELP me"?

To my knowledge, no Z letter prior to 12/20/69 mentioned him needing "HELP". All prior letters were angry, confident, taunting. So how did the 12/7/69 Fairfield letter know to ask for "HELP", as we know the real Zodiac did just 13 days later?

And there is little doubt that whoever wrote the 12/7/69 Fairfield letter also wrote this 12/16/69 Fairfield letter – both start with "I just", both threaten to kill cops, and the handwriting and symbols seem the same:

Zamantha, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:39 am

So if the Fairfield letters are all fake, from a hoaxer, how is the langauge on the 12/7/69 Fairfield letter matches up so well with the langauge and pose of the 12/20/69 letter?

Thanks AK for the pointing out the above statement, this is what I keep pondering an pondering…… IT’ matches up very well!

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:42 am

The handwriting on the July Fairfield letter looks a hell of a lot like that on the April 1978 letter…

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:49 am

July Fairfield?

The April 78 letter seems based (or traced) on several different Zodiac letters.

Any one have an explanation for how the "fake" Fairfield letter uses the same langauge and pose of the real 12/20/69 Zodiac letter?

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:33 am

Very interesting stuff.

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:47 am

July Fairfield?

The April 78 letter seems based (or traced) on several different Zodiac letters.

Whoops, I thought 12/7 meant 12th of July.

Here, look. The handwriting looks very similar, at least to me:

Zamantha, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:52 am

DebS aka Seagull gave me permission to post her findings.
Fresno Bee
Sat. Dec 20 1969
Page 1

‘Zodiac": 10 Are Marked For Murder

SAN JOSE (AP)- The Highway Patrol station here reports receiving a telehone call from a man identifying himself as "the Zodiac" and threatening to kill five patrolmen and a family of five by Monday.

Sgt. Robert Rengstorif said he took the call at 10:10 p.m. Friday from a man who told dispatcher Shirley Searcy he was "the Zodiac" and wanted to speak to the man in charge.

Rengstorif quoted the man as saying:
"I am going to kill five of you officers and a family of five between now and Monday."

The patrolman said the call was not recorded and there is no way of knowing who it came from.

A killer who calls himself Zodiac first struck a year ago in Vallejo and has killed a total of five persons.

His last known communication was a month ago in two letters addressed to the San Francisco Chronicle.

I looked for an article about this phone call in the SF Chronicle and the Press Democrat but wasn’t able to find one.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:45 am

The handwriting on the July Fairfield letter looks a hell of a lot like that on the April 1978 letter…

Well spotted, Nacht. The 1978 letter also seems pretty close to the Fairfield Dec 69 to me aswell. The word "speaking" is very close IMO, and the way the letters slant sometimes right, sometimes straight. Letter spacing too. ….How ironic if Fairfield got his nemesis "city pig toschi" into trouble with this?

Here’s a sample of both (Note: I have increased the contrast on the 69 letter to aid the comparison).

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:47 am

Thanks, Rufus! I’m only using that ‘Turn myself in ok’ letter for comparison, though – I’m not sure if all those Fairfield letters were prepared by the same person. The writing on the one you posted strikes me as different from that in the one I presented – I know they have similar layout in that they both contain ciphers, but my eyes still draw a different conclusion…

mike_r, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:55 am

Hi-

Zodiac never, ever to my knowledge sent a Z symbol, either as a signature or embedded in the text of a letter, that was a "12 o’clock" circle like the big one on this letter. His were either "one o’clock" circles (signatures) or "eleven o’clock" circles (embedded in a few letters). I wrote a piece on this in about 2000 or so on Jake’s old site.

Just an observation.

He did use some "12 o’clock circles" in the address of the Badlands letter but those were not crossed circles. He was pretty consistent with the elevens and ones.

http://www.zodiackiller.com/Mikado1.html

Embedded circles always open and close to the left of the vertical bar of the cross.

http://www.zodiackiller.com/StineLetter.html

Example of a signature crossed circle at 1 o’clock

http://www.zodiackiller.com/CitizenCard2.html

Oddball 12 o-clock circles on Badlands card.

Mike

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:13 am

Clearly there is something different about the writing in the Fairfield letters than most other Z communication of that time. As the FBI puts it, they see "distortion" and say they were not "written as freely". But they also note matching characteristics and say the Fairfield letters "may have" been prepared by the Zodiac, which is exactly the same langauge the FBI analyst used in regard to the Riverside writing – a lukewarm endorsement. Graysmith wrote these off as copycats.

Was Zodiac in a difficult position when he wrote these letters? Was he traveling in a car, writing on his knee, as opposed to sitting at a desk? Was he intentionally altering his style, as he had done and would do again? Or are these just the work of a very busy and perhaps insane hoaxer?

What leans me towards perhaps being real is something I don’t see the critics here or on other boards addressing. If the Fairfield letter is fake, why does the cry for help match what came 13 days later in a confirmed Zodiac letter, the Belli letter, which also asked for help? Just coincidence? Lucky guess?

Also at the time of the Fairfield letters Zodiac had not made a point of threatening police, other than a joke that if cops believed his bus plan they deserved to have "holes in their heads". Both Fairfield letters threaten police – and in the 4/20/70 confirmed Zodiac letter, Z says "there is more glory in killing a cop than a (kid)". And Zodiac later hinted he killed Officer Radetich. Once again, the hoaxer made a lucky guess in predicting Zodiac would explicitly threaten police?

Also, the letter threatens to kill 9 people in Sacramento, and threatens lives of government employees. Two of the next probable Zodiac victims, Hakari and Bennallack, were Sacramento residents, and Bennallack a government employee, a court reporter. So, for a third time, the hoaxer got lucky?

These may well be fake, but I think these issues are serious signs pointing that they could be real, and I have yet to see the critics, here or on other boards, address them.

If the Fairfield/Sacramento letters are real, was Z trying to create a new (false) persona? To make police think he was a Fairfield or Sacramento resident, into astrology, obsessed with killing cops, mentally ill and wanting help (that theme of which was continued in the Belli letter)?

Also good to keep in mind Z had many different styles.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:55 am

I see some similarities between the Fairfield letters and the 1974 Zodiac SLA letter, which is a confirmed Z letter.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:59 am

…….Also good to keep in mind Z had many different styles.……..

Yes AK. We can’t say for sure which was Z’s writing.

Unless a piece of Stine’s shirt was included or suchlike, we could find ways to doubt & debate pretty much any "later" Z communique. To some of us untrained oafs, even the Belli letter would probably look too neat if it wasn’t for the shirt swatch.

Good to keep an open mind on Fairfield whether it’s Z, another lunatic or just a troublemaking cid. It promotes some healthy debates and may lead to some fresh thinking. … keep it up, folks.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:09 pm

One possibility I suppose is that Fairfield was the Berryessa copycat . All a copycat needed was the symbol, a hood and the previous crime dates. Admittedly highly speculative.

I thought this to RTF! So, maybe this person did in a sense think he was "Zodiac"–his own Zodiac. (yes highly speculative, but damn interesting)

I still say things like this could be why Zodiac finally sent undenibale proof. Stines shirt. He was tired of the bs. He goes on to say he won’t tell us anymore, so I don’t see this being from Zodiac at all. He was beyong this. But he’s going to resort back to this stuff–very "beginner" Nah…(imo)

***

Zodiac was a coward who killed young people. He never killed a cop. Were cops on this new list killed? My guess in no. He didn’t like police, that is a given (or at least he wanted us to think that), but if that is who he truly hated, why then didn’t he kill cops?

He had to PROVE Stine, yet vaguely hints at the possibility he killed A COP–his greatest nemisis? I think he’d very much rub our noses in that one! But, he didn’t admit it outright–in case the real perp was found. He was a coward who killed young people. He could have gone after cops….but he didn’t.

No doubt many fake letters were mailed in. Some were better than others. I truly wonder how Zodiac felt about this? I bet good and bad. Takes some of the heat off of him–someone else could have gotten caught and busted for his crimes, but yet angry in the fact that someone was stealing his thunder.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:27 pm

For tahoe and others who think these Fairfield letters probable or definite fakes, how do you explain this?

Something very interesting I just noticed.

It seems likely either all the Fairfield letters are real, or all are fake.

Look at the 12/20/69 Zodiac letter to Belli:

Now look at the 12/7/69 Zodiac letter from Fairfield:

We know the 12/20/69 letter is real, confirmed handwriting and a bit of the Stine shirt.

So if the Fairfield letters are all fake, from a hoaxer, how is it that the langauge on the 12/7/69 Fairfield letter – "I just need HELP" – matches up so well with the langauge and pose of the 12/20/69 letter – "please HELP me"?

To my knowledge, no Z letter prior to 12/20/69 mentioned him needing "HELP". All prior letters were angry, confident, taunting. So how did the 12/7/69 Fairfield letter know to ask for "HELP", as we know the real Zodiac did just 13 days later?

And there is little doubt that whoever wrote the 12/7/69 Fairfield letter also wrote this 12/16/69 Fairfield letter – both start with "I just", both threaten to kill cops, and the handwriting and symbols seem the same:

tahoe27, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:29 pm

So if the Fairfield letters are all fake, from a hoaxer, how is it that the langauge on the 12/7/69 Fairfield letter – "I just need HELP" – matches up so well with the langauge and pose of the 12/20/69 letter – "please HELP me"?

To my knowledge, no Z letter prior to 12/20/69 mentioned him needing "HELP". All prior letters were angry, confident, taunting. So how did the 12/7/69 Fairfield letter know to ask for "HELP", as we know the real Zodiac did just 13 days later?

And there is little doubt that whoever wrote the 12/7/69 Fairfield letter also wrote this 12/16/69 Fairfield letter – both start with "I just", both threaten to kill cops, and the handwriting and symbols seem the same:

Didn’t the fake Zodiac caller to the Jim Dunbar show ask "for help"? I believe this was in late October of ’69…??

Was this 12/7/69 letter published?

Obviously too the 12/7/69 letter has bits of the 340 in it–the cipher begins and ends with the 340. To me this reeks of a copy-cat. But, for those of you who believe this is Zodiac–maybe it’s clue for you!

tahoe27, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:38 pm

….Dont get me wrong, the writer of the bleeding knife tried to alter their writing, even the FBI report states that…

Curious as to where morf. I see they mention Qc34 & Qc35 as they "probably contain some distortion". Did I miss those?

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:39 pm

AK = So if the Fairfield letters are all fake, from a hoaxer, how is it that the langauge on the 12/7/69 Fairfield letter – "I just need HELP" – matches up so well with the langauge and pose of the 12/20/69 letter – "please HELP me"?

To my knowledge, no Z letter prior to 12/20/69 mentioned him needing "HELP". All prior letters were angry, confident, taunting. So how did the 12/7/69 Fairfield letter know to ask for "HELP", as we know the real Zodiac did just 13 days later?

And there is little doubt that whoever wrote the 12/7/69 Fairfield letter also wrote this 12/16/69 Fairfield letter – both start with "I just", both threaten to kill cops, and the handwriting and symbols seem the same:

Tahoe Q, AK answers:

Didn’t the fake Zodiac caller to the Jim Dunbar show ask "for help"? I believe this was in late October of ’69…??GOOD POINT, I DON’T KNOW IF THE CALLER SPECIFICALLY ASKED FOR HELP, BUT THAT WAS THE TONE OF THE CALL. PERHAPS BOTH A HOAXER AND THE REAL ZODIAC FOLLOWED UP ON THIS FOR THERE OWN REASONS? MAYBE. BUT I AM STILL STRUCK BY THE MATCHING WORDS AND TONE IN THE 12/7 AND 12/20 LETTERS. THE CALLER WAS EXPOSED AS A FAKE, SO WHY WOULD A HOAXER FOLLOW UP ON THAT? AND HOW WOULD HE KNOW THE REAL ZODIAC WOULD ASK FOR HELP 13 DAYS LATER?

Was this 12/7/69 letter published? DON’T KNOW, BUT I DON’T THINK SO.

Obviously too the 12/7/69 letter has bits of the 340 in it–the cipher begins and ends with the 340. To me this reeks of a copy-cat. But, for those of you who believe this is Zodiac–maybe it’s clue for you!I DID A PROPOSED 12/7 SOLUTION A YEAR AGO, I WILL POST IT IN A SEPERATE SECTION

bruce3, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:16 pm

Again,has anyone or will anyone place a side by side for the THE ,for example, as compared to the ’67 Notes sent to Mr.Bates,RSPD and the newspaper there?

Ricardo, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:23 pm

The numbers of the proposed victims is suspicious to me. Was whoever wrote this trying to insert a secret number in this message?

There are seven numbers. Was that someone’s telephone number in 1969?

316-8398

It is just missing an area code.

In 1969, the area code for San Francisco and Oakland was 415, San Jose was 408, Vallejo, Napa, and Fairfield was 707, and Sacramento was 916.

I called Sandy and we will check whether or not there actually was any such telephone number for any of these area codes in 1969.

Maybe it could even have been a different area code, not necessarily in California.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:26 pm

Interesting Ricardo.

Rufus T Firefly pointed out "Zodiac" here says he will kill 38 total – and Zodiac claimed 37 victims in one of his last letters.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:29 pm

Again,has anyone or will anyone place a side by side for the THE ,for example, as compared to the ’67 Notes sent to Mr.Bates,RSPD and the newspaper there?

"THE" from "Bates had to die" and "THe" from "Bleeding Knife".

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:30 pm

The numbers of the proposed victims is suspicious to me. Was whoever wrote this trying to insert a secret number in this message?

There are seven numbers. Was that someone’s telephone number in 1969?

316-8398

It is just missing an area code.

In 1969, the area code for San Francisco and Oakland was 415, San Jose was 408, Vallejo, Napa, and Fairfield was 707, and Sacramento was 916.

I called Sandy and we will check whether or not there actually was any such telephone number for any of these area codes in 1969.

Maybe it could even have been a different area code, not necessarily in California.

Very interesting. Love to see what you find on that.

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:40 pm

The numbers of the proposed victims is suspicious to me. Was whoever wrote this trying to insert a secret number in this message?

There are seven numbers. Was that someone’s telephone number in 1969?

316-8398

It is just missing an area code.

In 1969, the area code for San Francisco and Oakland was 415, San Jose was 408, Vallejo, Napa, and Fairfield was 707, and Sacramento was 916.

I called Sandy and we will check whether or not there actually was any such telephone number for any of these area codes in 1969.

Maybe it could even have been a different area code, not necessarily in California.

Very interesting. Love to see what you find on that.

Prefix (323) 316- is primarily in Los Angeles, California, and includes 2,104 phone numbers. Not sure if this was the case back in the late 60’s, sometimes prefixes change.

Phone Area Code and Exchange 310-316 Information:
Type: Landline Carrier: Verizon California Inc.-ca (gte)
County: Los Angeles City: Redondo Beach State: California, CA Zip code: 90277 Timezone: Pacific

Also, this one is interesting if you connect it to the FLT555 card, or the Swindles murders, or Nikki Benedict’s murder:

(619)-316-8398 – Phone Numbers in San Diego, CA Area-Code 619 – 316

bruce3, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 3:04 pm

Ak47!
ThanX!
In the ’67 note to the RS police in "THE RE" the first three letters or THE is closer. FYI

True Detective for August 1971 has a photo of the Ghia car door with ‘brown paper covering’ the wriitng.All photos of Z’s writing before the bleeding knife should be checked to see if a composite Z writing could be known to a forger.This includes detective and men’s magazines prior to December 15 1969.

I am saying good work morp’ again,but we are all just looking at all angles.I say if the FBI had trouble coming to a conclusion then it is not unusual if we do too!It is needful to get everything Z out there for all to see.You did it!

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 3:05 pm

Ak47!
ThanX!
In the ’67 note to the RS police in "THE RE" the first three letters or THE is closer. FYI

True Detective for August 1971 has a photo of the Ghia car door with ‘brown paper covering’ the wriitng.All photos of Z’s writing before the bleeding knife should be checked to see if a composite Z writing could be known to a forger.This includes detective and men’s magazines prior to December 15 1969.

I am saying good work morp’ again,but we are all just looking at all angles.I say if the FBI had trouble coming to a conclusion then it is not unusual if we do too!It is needful to get everything Z out there for all to see.You did it!

AGreed!

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:10 pm

I stumbled across something nobody has found.

I was trying to get more information on what the FBI thought of these Fairfield letters.

I found an FBI file were the analyst says that the Belli letter has matches to the 12/7 and 12/16 Fairfield letters, that compared to pre-December Z letters these three have distortion and were not written as freely, but that they have similar characteristics to other Zodiac letters, and that ‘one person may have prepared ALL the threatening letters in this matter.’

A VERY SIGNIFICANT FIND!

The FBI analyst gives the same level of endorsement to the Fairfield letters that he gives to the Belli letter.

Look at pages 64, 65 and 70 here:

http://foia.fbi.gov/zodiac/zodiac3.pdf

Can someone save those and post those pages here?

Thanks!

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:22 pm

I stumbled across something nobody has found.

I was trying to get more information on what the FBI thought of these Fairfield letters.

I found an FBI file were the analyst says that the Belli letter has matches to the 12/7 and 12/16 Fairfield letters, that compared to pre-December Z letters these three have distortion and were not written as freely, but that they have similar characteristics to other Zodiac letters, and that ‘one person may have prepared ALL the threatening letters in this matter.’

A VERY SIGNIFICANT FIND!

The FBI analyst gives the same level of endorsement to the Fairfield letters that he gives to the Belli letter.

Look at pages 64, 65 and 70 here:

http://foia.fbi.gov/zodiac/zodiac3.pdf

Can someone save those and post those pages here?

Thanks!

But AK, how can this be????

Tom V posted this at his forum:

"Another website is circulating what they want you to believe is some kind of new discovery, the "bleeding knife" letter.
I was who originally posted the "Bleeding knife" letter online; it was back in late December 1998. I obtained it from Lt. Bruton of the San Francisco Police Dept. during a research trip to the Bay Area. What I didn’t know was that — for reasons unknown — Bruton kept in the same binder copies of all correspondences from anyone claiming to be the Zodiac, authenticated or not.
Bruton copied the contents of the binder for me, but it wasn’t until my plane ride home that I noticed the "bleeding knife" letter. At first I thought I had a hell of a scoop, an authenticated Zodiac letter that had never been seen…so I shared it online. I’m sure quite a few of the oldtimers remember it.
Well, the "bleeding knife" letter didn’t sit well with me, so I researched further and found it was never authenticated. Then I immediately removed it from Zodiackiller.com. In short, that letter is not an authentic Zodiac correspondence, and is nothing new to the Internet. (I bet that other website could "discover" all sorts of new info if they ever bothered to review what was already available at Zodiackiller.com. What’s their next big discovery going to be? The Zodiac Shack?)
The other website wants credit for 12-year-old info. I say let’s give it to them."

Nothing new to the internet?? Raise your hands if you have seen that letter anyplace at anytime before 2 days ago. That would have been all over the place on the net, just like lots of other Z stuff. He said some of his "old-timers" at the site might remember it. I know we have some old-timers here from Tom’s site. A search of ZK.com new & archived Zodiac message boards revealed ZERO in the way of Bleeding knife stuff, so what gives? I even went back thru the internet way-back machine.

It’s not a competition, and as I said earlier, I dont really care who found it, but at least get the truth out there.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:24 pm

Here ya go!

PG 64:

PG 65:

PG 70:

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:37 pm

But AK, how can this be????

:bounce: :cheers: :lol!:

Thanks Tahoe27!

Tom V is

Mike B is :sleep:

OK who wants to post these over at ZK and ZKF?

Warning – you will not be too popular if you do.

But the truth is important.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:41 pm

I am not quite understanding what you are saying here…It looks to me as if they had a QDE look at these and s/he said that these letters could not really be associated with other known Zodiac letter/writing specimens…

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:42 pm

Actually I do have respect for both Tom V and Mike B for the contributions they have made to the case.

But a lot of different posters here have made some significant finds, so this just goes to show that relative newcomers to the case may have a fresh perspective to contribute, and that things can get done and new evidence can be found.

I don’t know if these Fairfield letters are real or fake. There are still some good arguments both ways.

But it is clear the FBI did NOT dismiss these as fake, and indeed gave them the exact same level of qualified endorsement as the Belli letter, long accepted by the reseach community as a real Z letter.

Thanks to all who contributed ideas, pro or con, to this thread.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:47 pm

I’m still not clear, AK, on where you are getting that the FBI held these letters to be as "strong" as the other "known" Z letters from…

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:48 pm

I am not quite understanding what you are saying here…It looks to me as if they had a QDE look at these and s/he said that these letters could not really be associated with other known Zodiac letter/writing specimens…

Q34 – Q38 are the 12/7/69 and 12/16/69 Fairfield letters and envelopes.

Q43 and Q44 are the Belli letter and envelope of 12/20/69.

The examiner notes that the Fairfield letters AND the Belli letter contain some "distortion" and appear to have been "not written as freely" as prior letters.

But then the examiner notes (on page 65) that the Fairfield letters have characteristics which indicate they "may have been prepared" by the same person who wrote the earlier confirmed Zodiac letters.

And then (on page 70) the examiner notes that the Belli letter and envelope has characteristics indicating that "ALL" of the letters may have been prepared by the same person.

So, far from a dismissal of the Fairfield letters as a hoax, the FBI notes that they have elements in common with the Belli letter, and that ALL have characteristics matching previous confirmed Zodiac letters.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:57 pm

The FBI uses very careful, CYA langauge in their analysis.

But they give the exact same verdict on the Fairfield letters that they do on the Belli letter – a qualified endorsement.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:04 pm

I don’t think so…in part because only the Belli letter and envelope were retained…and I read it as saying that the Belli letter and envelope were clearly the work of Z and the other things probably were not…

Zamantha, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:05 pm

The FBI uses very careful, CYA langauge in their analysis.

But they give the exact same verdict on the Fairfield letters that they do on the Belli letter – a qualified endorsement.

The above statement pointed out my AK.

Thanks AK, for taking the time to read an understand this. A qualified endorsement is an excellent find. Not bragging
much but I felt it in my bones that both these letters were Z like. But I took the time to look, read and really ponder. So.
many other peeps just glance an say No…can’t be… it looks Fake. I honestly feel that are so NOT Fake, they are So Real.
Maybe we should start a poll, a Yes or No, or Maybe to see what the gang is thinkin.

PZ, nice to have a lawyer in the house

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:10 pm

So you guys are choosing to ignore the statement that the Belli letter and envelope were retained (meaning as evidence of "authentic Z communications), and the others were not…OK…..

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:12 pm

Wow, the Belli letter was withheld? That’s news to me. I always thought nearly every Zodiac letter ended up being printed in the paper.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:13 pm

So you guys are choosing to ignore the statement that the Belli letter and envelope were retained (meaning as evidence of "authentic Z communications), and the others were not…OK…..

Not true.

Look at the bottom of page 65, in regard to the Fairfield letters:

PG 65:

"THE SUBMITTED MATERIAL IS RETAINED"

In fact it was the FBI that sent the 12/16/69 letter to Morf – so it is clear they did retain it, as the memo above indicates.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:17 pm

That’s what I understood it to mean too, AK. That Qc36-42 were also to be retained (i.e. including the Fairfield letter).

tahoe27, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:38 pm

It basically says there were some distortions, not written as freely as Z, with some similarities so the letter "may have" been written by (Zodiac). So they retained the material….which apparently they did with the fake stuff too.

I too looked long and hard at this. I have been looking at and reading Zodiac’s letters for over 20 (+) years, as have others whom I’m sure would disagree with me. But, I like to think I don’t dismiss potential Zodiac stuff without some consideration. I love ya Zam, but because we might not be in agreement doesn’t mean we didn’t look closely at this letter. I took many things into consideration.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:50 pm

Okay…lots to cover here…

I say it’s a fake, and not a particularly good one. The paper’s wrong, the pen’s wrong…the writing isn’t really that close…the message is forced…the count directly conflicts with what Zodiac would claim in authenticated letters that arrived after this one.

The difference between this and the Belli letter is that, by the end of the Belli letter, Zodiac’s handwriting starts to revert to something much more consistent with what we got in the earlier authenticated letters. The writing in this letter only matches up well with other letters that are more widely considered fakes.

To compare the handwriting to the LB car door is probably not a good way to go. Zodiac would have been squatting down and writing from a vertical base on the door, and by the time he gets to the word "knife", he’s very close to ground level. In fact, the writing on the door isn’t really too close to the authenticated writings either, except for the sloppiness.

AK, while the FBI noted some similarities, they certainly did not offer a "qualified endorsement". "May have been" is much different than "was" or "was certainly" or "was definitely". The fact that it was retained means nothing in its authenticity.

As Nacht said, all of the letters, authenticated or not, shared some similar qualities, but not all of the letters were authenticated. I’d like to see what the similarities the FBI were speaking of, as it could clear a lot of this up.

As for the use of "help" in any of the letters, it’s not exactly a stretch that a killer who is openly communicative would eventually ask for help. Many, many have.

Now, as to Tom having this letter 12 years ago…he probably did. I really have no reason to doubt it, as he’s had connections for years now. Whether he chose to keep it on his site is his problem, not ours. I personally posted the letter at ZodiacKillerFacts yesterday, as well as the FBI page, in the questioned letters/forgeries section (it’s definitely questioned, and I think it’s a forgery) because, regardless of it being legitimate or not, it’s part of the overall story and people would want to see it (and it’s quite clear that, no matter what Tom says, most of us never saw it before). On top of all of this, our pal Robert Graysmith reported this letter in "Zodiac Unmasked" years ago as well (Chapter 17, paperback page 222). None of that matters at all. It was out there, and now, thanks to Morf & AK, the rest of us finally get a chance to see it.

And to AK, I’m no more or less popular on Michael’s site for posting it there. I assure you, he doesn’t care that it’s up.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:54 pm

Wow, the Belli letter was withheld? That’s news to me. I always thought nearly every Zodiac letter ended up being printed in the paper.

No, it was retained, not withheld…they just kept it in the file

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:55 pm

Thank you for your rationality, Mr. Bungle; I absolutely agree with you…

Zamantha, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:55 pm

It basically says there were some distortions, not written as freely as Z, with some similarities so the letter "may have" been written by (Zodiac). So they retained the material….which apparently they did with the fake stuff too.

I too looked long and hard at this. I have been looking at and reading Zodiac’s letters for over 20 (+) years, as have others whom I’m sure would disagree with me. But, I like to think I don’t dismiss potential Zodiac stuff without some consideration. I love ya Zam, but because we might not be in agreement doesn’t mean we didn’t look closely at this letter. I took many things into consideration.

Tahoe, I trust you did read n look at everything. and I honestly know you are one of those posters who knows this case inside an out & Love ya Too. I always totally respect your viewpoints! Actually was not referring to you, but on a couple other forums I read a couple posters just posted a quick No, or it’s a for sure Fake, w/o even giving their view points…. those where the ones I was taking about. i’m not getting why they can’t back up their quick No, with some type of feeling. I always appreciate a good debate

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:01 pm

No, it was retained, not withheld…they just kept it in the file

Silly me.

If the Belli letter was printed in the paper, or if its details (including ‘Help me’) were at least made mention of, any Tom, Dick and Harry would have enough information to create this fake.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:04 pm

No, it was retained, not withheld…they just kept it in the file

Silly me.

If the Belli letter was printed in the paper, or if its details (including ‘Help me’) were at least made mention of, any Tom, Dick and Harry would have enough information to create this fake.

And don’t forget the Dunbar show…that was October 22, 1969, well before this letter.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:28 pm

No, it was retained, not withheld…they just kept it in the file

Silly me.

If the Belli letter was printed in the paper, or if its details (including ‘Help me’) were at least made mention of, any Tom, Dick and Harry would have enough information to create this fake.

And don’t forget the Dunbar show…that was October 22, 1969, well before this letter.

We were talking about this in another thread earlier today.
http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … 55-105.htm

***

You know what else…lack of dotted "i’s". Zodiac sure had a thing for dotting his "i’s"….usually little circles, which you can’t tell so much in the copies. This person outright lacks any dots. There are some, but nothing like what Zodiac would have done imo. Same with this person’s drawing.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:40 pm

If the Belli letter was printed in the paper, or if its details (including ‘Help me’) were at least made mention of, any Tom, Dick and Harry would have enough information to create this fake.

And don’t forget the Dunbar show…that was October 22, 1969, well before this letter.

We were talking about this in another thread earlier today.
http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … 55-105.htm

From the transcript Graysmith put in the Yellowbook, the caller doesn’t seem to directly ask for help (he says he needs medical care and that he doesn’t want to be hurt or go to the gas chamber), but Belli mentions the word "help".

EDIT: in "Unmasked", it states that "a KGO news bulletin was drafted: "Alleged ‘Zodiac Killer’ pleads for help in telephone calls to ‘A.M.’ Program with Jim Dunbar."

tahoe27, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:53 pm

Walter Cronkite—-"he (Sam) said he was the Zodiac Killer and he needed help".

Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsM-kwU2mRU

tracers, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:10 pm

I am not really following this talk about the letter being retained. Zabaglonia said the Belli letter was retained and the other letters were not, then a couple other members say the other letters were retained. Who is right? Sorry, I know this is probably a dumb question, but I have been reading and reading all day (on the comp and off) and my brain is fried. I need someone more clearheaded to explain this to me.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:14 pm

Very nice, Tahoe! I guess we can safely say that the idea of Zodiac needing help was floating around a lot before this letter was written.

Tracers, Zab was going off the one page of the FBI files. The subsequent page shows that these letters were retained as well. That’s why the FBI had them to release to Morf in the first place.

tracers, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:20 pm

Thanks, Mr. Bungle! Now that you have cleared this up, I can stop reading for a while and try to get my brain back.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:30 pm

Mr. Bungle; Mr. AK

Okay…lots to cover here…

I say it’s a fake, and not a particularly good one. The paper’s wrong, the pen’s wrong…HOW DO WE KNOW WHAT PAPER Z WOULD USE IF HE WAS TRAVELING IN OR OUT OF STATE, OR UNDER DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCES? the writing isn’t really that close…the message is forced…the count directly conflicts with what Zodiac would claim in authenticated letters that arrived after this one. IT IS NOT A COUNT OF PEOPLE HE IS SAYING HE HAS KILLED, BUT A THREAT TO KILL THOSE PEOPLE IN THE FUTURE. 38 THREATENED, AND THE MOST ZODIAC WOULD CLAIM IN THE 70’S WAS 37. PRETTY CLOSE.

The difference between this and the Belli letter is that, by the end of the Belli letter, Zodiac’s handwriting starts to revert to something much more consistent with what we got in the earlier authenticated letters. The writing in this letter only matches up well with other letters that are more widely considered fakes.COMPARE IT TO THE 74 SLA LETTER.

To compare the handwriting to the LB car door is probably not a good way to go. Zodiac would have been squatting down and writing from a vertical base on the door, and by the time he gets to the word "knife", he’s very close to ground level. In fact, the writing on the door isn’t really too close to the authenticated writings either, except for the sloppiness.

AK, while the FBI noted some similarities, they certainly did not offer a "qualified endorsement". "May have been" is much different than "was" or "was certainly" or "was definitely". The fact that it was retained means nothing in its authenticity. THE FBI USES VERY CAREFUL LANGAUGE. THEY OFFERED THE EXACT SAME LANGUAGE, WORD FOR WORD, THE EXACT SAME LEVEL OF QUALIFIED ENDORSEMENT FOR THE 12/16/69 FAIRFIELD LETTER AS THEY DO FOR THE 12/20/69 BELLI LETTER.

As Nacht said, all of the letters, authenticated or not, shared some similar qualities, but not all of the letters were authenticated. I’d like to see what the similarities the FBI were speaking of, as it could clear a lot of this up.

As for the use of "help" in any of the letters, it’s not exactly a stretch that a killer who is openly communicative would eventually ask for help. Many, many have. TRUE, AND THERE IS THE ISSUE OF THE DUNBAR SHOW, BUT THAT CALLER WAS EXPOSED AS A FAKE. WE HAVE THE FACT THAT THE 12/16 FAIRFIELD LETTER ASKS FOR HELP, THEN THE 12/20 BELLI LETTER ASKS FOR HELP, SOMETHING THAT ZODIAC HAD NOT DONE BEFORE. PRIOR LETTERS WERE ANGRY, CONFIDENT, TAUNTING.

Now, as to Tom having this letter 12 years ago…he probably did. I really have no reason to doubt it, as he’s had connections for years now. Whether he chose to keep it on his site is his problem, not ours. I personally posted the letter at ZodiacKillerFacts yesterday, as well as the FBI page, in the questioned letters/forgeries section (it’s definitely questioned, and I think it’s a forgery) because, regardless of it being legitimate or not, it’s part of the overall story and people would want to see it (and it’s quite clear that, no matter what Tom says, most of us never saw it before). On top of all of this, our pal Robert Graysmith reported this letter in "Zodiac Unmasked" years ago as well (Chapter 17, paperback page 222). None of that matters at all. It was out there, and now, thanks to Morf & AK, the rest of us finally get a chance to see it. RIGHT! TOM HAS THE MAY 78 LETTER UP, WITH THE MANSON REFERENCE, THAT WRITING LOOKS VERY DIFFERENT FROM MOST Z WRITING, AND AS FAS AS I KNOW NO EXPERT HAS ENDORSED IT. HERE WE POST THINGS AND LET PEOPLE DECIDE.

And to AK, I’m no more or less popular on Michael’s site for posting it there. I assure you, he doesn’t care that it’s up. HE DOESN’T SEEM TO CARE ABOUT MUCH. HE’S OK THOUGH. POST THESE FBI MEMO’S THERE AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:34 pm

I see some similarities between the Fairfield letters and the 1974 Zodiac SLA letter, which is a confirmed Z letter.

bruce3, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:40 pm

For reference only-GS says the SLA was a "copycat"letter.He supposedly got an official list of the missives from SFPD or a contact.I personally think the SLA as authenticated by Morrell was real.

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:53 pm

For what it’s worth, I don’t see any real similarities between the SLA letter and the Fairfield communications. Between the SLA letter and ‘Red Phantom’? Now, that’s another story…

tahoe27, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:54 pm

I never thought that darn SLA letter was from Zodiac.

For some reason I don’t see Zodiac as starting off a letter with "Dear"–even if he were faking it to look like someone else. Now maybe this Fairfield letter writer wrote the SLA letter. I just think the most logical writer is someone in the SLA.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 8:03 pm

The FBI uses very careful, CYA langauge in their analysis.

But they give the exact same verdict and exact same langauge on the Fairfield letters that they do on the Belli letter – a qualified endorsement.

There are other reasons to question this letter. The content seems rushed and not up to usual Zodiac standards.

But we also have this letter using "help", which Zodiac would later do; threatening to kill police, which Zodiac would later do; threatening to kill people and government employees in particular in Sacramento, with two probable Zodiac murders in 1970 in Sacramento, one a government worker; saying he WOULD kill 38, and Zodiac later claiming credit for 37.

Add to that the qualified endorsement of the FBI expert, who had all the materials and facts, which we don’t, and I lean towards this being real.

bruce3, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 8:12 pm

T27,
Note too that it is signed "a friend" and Valentine’s is about ‘friends.’ So to be polite on this day he added "mr."Z would change as he began with "Dear Editor "then a large segment of letters are "This is the the Zodiac speaking."Sometimes it was just "Editor."Sometimes Editor was on the envelope.
He did "Dear Melvin;"Dear KJH Channel Nine"(my acceptance as a Z).Then just "sirs,"(pl.for first time)which can be ‘mr’.The 1/29/74 nothing he starts right into the "note."He was capable of anythying.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 8:35 pm

Mr. Bungle; Mr. AK, MrBungle again….

Okay…lots to cover here…

I say it’s a fake, and not a particularly good one. The paper’s wrong, the pen’s wrong…HOW DO WE KNOW WHAT PAPER Z WOULD USE IF HE WAS TRAVELING IN OR OUT OF STATE, OR UNDER DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCES? What I’m saying is that he never used lined paper in any other communication, and we have no idea where Z was when he wrote any of them. If he was consistent before and consistent after, why would he change here?

the writing isn’t really that close…the message is forced…the count directly conflicts with what Zodiac would claim in authenticated letters that arrived after this one. IT IS NOT A COUNT OF PEOPLE HE IS SAYING HE HAS KILLED, BUT A THREAT TO KILL THOSE PEOPLE IN THE FUTURE. 38 THREATENED, AND THE MOST ZODIAC WOULD CLAIM IN THE 70’S WAS 37. PRETTY CLOSE. True enough, and I’m not going to split hairs here.

The difference between this and the Belli letter is that, by the end of the Belli letter, Zodiac’s handwriting starts to revert to something much more consistent with what we got in the earlier authenticated letters. The writing in this letter only matches up well with other letters that are more widely considered fakes.COMPARE IT TO THE 74 SLA LETTER. I’m sorry, I just don’t see it…I think the writing in the disputed letters looks very similar though.

To compare the handwriting to the LB car door is probably not a good way to go. Zodiac would have been squatting down and writing from a vertical base on the door, and by the time he gets to the word "knife", he’s very close to ground level. In fact, the writing on the door isn’t really too close to the authenticated writings either, except for the sloppiness.

AK, while the FBI noted some similarities, they certainly did not offer a "qualified endorsement". "May have been" is much different than "was" or "was certainly" or "was definitely". The fact that it was retained means nothing in its authenticity. THE FBI USES VERY CAREFUL LANGAUGE. THEY OFFERED THE EXACT SAME LANGUAGE, WORD FOR WORD, THE EXACT SAME LEVEL OF QUALIFIED ENDORSEMENT FOR THE 12/16/69 FAIRFIELD LETTER AS THEY DO FOR THE 12/20/69 BELLI LETTER. Correct…however, to my knowledge, there is no evidence of either of these letters being confirmed by handwriting analysts, while the Belli letter was undoubtedly confirmed by outside sources. As I said, look at the Belli letter, and you can easily see that the earlier Zodiac handwriting starts to come out towards the end of the letter. These letters’ writing looks nothing like any of the previous in any way (taking into account I don’t see the "SLA" letter resemblance).

As Nacht said, all of the letters, authenticated or not, shared some similar qualities, but not all of the letters were authenticated. I’d like to see what the similarities the FBI were speaking of, as it could clear a lot of this up.

As for the use of "help" in any of the letters, it’s not exactly a stretch that a killer who is openly communicative would eventually ask for help. Many, many have. TRUE, AND THERE IS THE ISSUE OF THE DUNBAR SHOW, BUT THAT CALLER WAS EXPOSED AS A FAKE. WE HAVE THE FACT THAT THE 12/16 FAIRFIELD LETTER ASKS FOR HELP, THEN THE 12/20 BELLI LETTER ASKS FOR HELP, SOMETHING THAT ZODIAC HAD NOT DONE BEFORE. PRIOR LETTERS WERE ANGRY, CONFIDENT, TAUNTING. I’ve always felt the tone in the Belli letter was because it was a personal communication. He wasn’t trying to scare or terrify Belli, he had a different purpose. After the Belli letter, he went right back to his taunting, angry self.

Now, as to Tom having this letter 12 years ago…he probably did. I really have no reason to doubt it, as he’s had connections for years now. Whether he chose to keep it on his site is his problem, not ours. I personally posted the letter at ZodiacKillerFacts yesterday, as well as the FBI page, in the questioned letters/forgeries section (it’s definitely questioned, and I think it’s a forgery) because, regardless of it being legitimate or not, it’s part of the overall story and people would want to see it (and it’s quite clear that, no matter what Tom says, most of us never saw it before). On top of all of this, our pal Robert Graysmith reported this letter in "Zodiac Unmasked" years ago as well (Chapter 17, paperback page 222). None of that matters at all. It was out there, and now, thanks to Morf & AK, the rest of us finally get a chance to see it. RIGHT! TOM HAS THE MAY 78 LETTER UP, WITH THE MANSON REFERENCE, THAT WRITING LOOKS VERY DIFFERENT FROM MOST Z WRITING, AND AS FAS AS I KNOW NO EXPERT HAS ENDORSED IT. HERE WE POST THINGS AND LET PEOPLE DECIDE. And that’s a cool thing. It’s part of the reason I decided to give this place a shot, and I’m happy I did.

And to AK, I’m no more or less popular on Michael’s site for posting it there. I assure you, he doesn’t care that it’s up. HE DOESN’T SEEM TO CARE ABOUT MUCH. HE’S OK THOUGH. POST THESE FBI MEMO’S THERE AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS. He cares a lot, he just runs his site differently than you guys do here. It’s all about purpose. Michael’s site is more debunking the myths and getting the facts straight, while this site is more speculative. It’s all good. I do plan on adding the additional FBI files to the thread on this letter, and, once again, I assure you Michael will be fine about it.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 8:44 pm

T27,
Note too that it is signed "a friend" and Valentine’s is about ‘friends.’ So to be polite on this day he added "mr."Z would change as he began with "Dear Editor "then a large segment of letters are "This is the the Zodiac speaking."Sometimes it was just "Editor."Sometimes Editor was on the envelope.
He did "Dear Melvin;"Dear KJH Channel Nine"(my acceptance as a Z).Then just "sirs,"(pl.for first time)which can be ‘mr’.The 1/29/74 nothing he starts right into the "note."He was capable of anythying.

Ah yes, "Dear Melvin"…you are correct of course. I still don’t think it’s Zodiac though.

Zamantha, Subject: THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:07 pm

Question: What’s the difference between a qualified endorsement and an authenticated one by the FBI on
some of the Z letters? Does it mean the same thing or ?

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:17 pm

Question: What’s the difference between a qualified endorsement and an authenticated one by the FBI on
some of the Z letters? Does it mean the same thing or ?

To be honest, given what is in the FBI reports, I’d say they did neither for these AND the Belli letter. All they really do is note that there are some similarities, but they don’t sound overly enthused with either. I just can’t call what they have on either of the documents adding up to a "qualified endorsement" of anything.

Remember, as well, that the letters we refer to as "confirmed" were confirmed by handwriting experts like Sherwood Morrill & John Shimoda, not because of any FBI authentication.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:50 pm

That is the best the FBI gives. They don’t stick their necks out, they are very careful in their langauge. When they say there are matching characteristics and they "may have" been prepared by the Zodiac, that is the best they give. I note it as "qualified" only because they note distortion and "not written as freely".

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:05 pm

Man…I take off for a few hours, and I miss all this excitement.

I am glad that this material has allowed some healthy and friendly debates to happen.

As for my opinion, I am still out. I see some things that look similar, and some things that look different. If the FBI couldnt make a determination, I dont think we will be able to prove one way or the other if this letter is real.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:13 pm

Again,has anyone or will anyone place a side by side for the THE ,for example, as compared to the ’67 Notes sent to Mr.Bates,RSPD and the newspaper there?

"THE" from "Bates had to die" and "THe" from "Bleeding Knife".

Look at the little crook at the bottom of the "T"
That is powerfull stuff IMO.
I am far from convinced that this is from z but would a copycat have picked up on that little detail?
I really dont think so and of course it could be coincidence.
But it just popped out at me.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:15 pm

Question: What’s the difference between a qualified endorsement and an authenticated one by the FBI on
some of the Z letters? Does it mean the same thing or ?

To be honest, given what is in the FBI reports, I’d say they did neither for these AND the Belli letter. All they really do is note that there are some similarities, but they don’t sound overly enthused with either. I just can’t call what they have on either of the documents adding up to a "qualified endorsement" of anything.

Remember, as well, that the letters we refer to as "confirmed" were confirmed by handwriting experts like Sherwood Morrill & John Shimoda, not because of any FBI authentication.

Just to be crystal clear………We have no FBI authentication on any z communication?

edited to add the word "any"

bruce3, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:19 pm

The "Zodiac killer" note is contraversial to be sure. I offer some observations.
There seens to be components to the Bates as well as the LB case.

The note as shown in a previous post in this thread is typed in all upper case letters as was the Confession.This note was composed in November of ’69.The Confession was composed in November of ’66.Reverse the 9 in the 69 note and you have ’66.
Both productions were copies of an original which never surfaced.

The ’69 note had ‘doodles’ ten in number which was not unlike Z would do.

In the 66 Confession the Z used the word to when he should have used too just as we find in the mini note.
Both productions discussed a young female. In the 69 note it says ‘you are to (sic) beautiful…’
The Confession says she was ‘beautiful.’

There was a full moon when Bates was killed with a knife.There was also a full moon when Gaul (I have all police reports)was killed with a knife.Both murders, which were very vicious,had typed upper case missives connected to them.

Magnolia Bl.was very close and connected to the alley where Gaul was killed.Magnolia Bl was a prominent street next to where Bates lived.
Both were killed with a knife in an alley.Both areas had a water connection(if one has this interest) Riverside and Silverlake.

Gaul had given BD the ‘brush off’ as LT.Deemer had said as she was seeing a man and when he found out LT.Deemer said he ‘became enraged.’He lived down the hall from her at a Scientology Manor.The note Deemer told us was found by a detective in her room and was never turned into evidence.We gave it to the head detective at Ramparts.Deemer said he was ‘up to his eyeballs in murders'(I saw one of his murder books and he was not jesting!) and it or the note got passed over. Deemer had no real interest in Z.

Z writes about Cheri giving him the ‘brush off.’You wonder if he learned of her connection to football star Dennis Highland and he too became angry.

At LB both a male and female were stabbed as we have with Gaul and Sharp.There was a full moon on both attacks.
In the police report it was noted a foxtail had been placed under Gaul.It was not indigenous to the entire area.They thought it strange as it seemed to have been deliberately placed there.There was an area at LB that was called "Foxtail Flats"(you can see this name on LB maps today-I have a copy somewhere in my files) where hippies used to hang out.Loud cries went up there was no such place.Wrong!

That’s enough for now.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:31 pm

Question: What’s the difference between a qualified endorsement and an authenticated one by the FBI on
some of the Z letters? Does it mean the same thing or ?

To be honest, given what is in the FBI reports, I’d say they did neither for these AND the Belli letter. All they really do is note that there are some similarities, but they don’t sound overly enthused with either. I just can’t call what they have on either of the documents adding up to a "qualified endorsement" of anything.

Remember, as well, that the letters we refer to as "confirmed" were confirmed by handwriting experts like Sherwood Morrill & John Shimoda, not because of any FBI authentication.

Just to be crystal clear………We have no FBI authentication on any z communication?

edited to add the word "any"

I’d have to go through the FBI files to see if they’ve actually used the phrase "confirmed" or something similar, but AK states that their phrasing in the pages shown is the best they do. My only point is that the letters we refer to as "confirmed" had nothing to do with the FBI’s opinions, just trusted handwriting experts.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:55 pm

My point is we all know the Belli letter was clearly written by Zodiac; yet the FBI analyst says "may have" been written by Zodiac, the exact same words he used for the Fairfield letters. That is generally the best the FBI will say, and they say it again and again for several letters we all know are Z. I did find one were they said "probably". Perhaps it was a different analyst that day, or more indicia of reliability were present. When they think it a hoax, they say something like ‘while it cannot be absolutely excluded that xxx was done by the same writer, there were no significant matches present, and several aspects that were not similar.’

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 11:07 pm

Here is the one that said "probably."

Actually, and this very interesting, this examiner notes the distortion and less free writing on the Fairfield 12/7/69 letter (Q34 and 35), but then in regards to the new document, the April 28 1970 greeting card, with "I hope you enjoy..", he concludes that in regard to "ALL" the documents in the case given to the FBI (which clearly INCLUDES FAIRFIELD) they were "PROBABLY PREPARED BY ONE WRITER".

Wow, so there you go!

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 02, 2010 11:31 pm

Now, just to be fair, and consider all sides, no Fairfield letter appears on the SFPD list of confirmed Zodiac letters. And I don’t know the opinion of California DOJ or Morrill on the Fairfield letters.

The content lacks the tone of previous letters. It seems rushed and not as thought out.

There are clear differences in some of the writing, along with some similarities.

So ultimately, there is evidence to supprt both positions.

One interesting thing will be if and when I get the envelope, to see that writing, and also to see that stamp. Will that be a stamp that Zodiac used before 12/16/69 or would use after? That could be telling.

I still lean towards thinking the Fairfield letters real, but I can see how reasonable people can differ on this one.

Zamantha, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:19 am

Wonder what "go for the government life" means

Hmmm the cover up we heard bits an pieces about? A Gov’t cover up? The 4 small cross marks, back to that 4 PI theory……..even if it’s a fake, maybe
the writer knew something. I’m just trying to think out of the box……………

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:40 am

"go for the government life"

I read that to mean TRY TO TAKE THE LIVES OF GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES – Cops, military, politicians, bureacrats.

He says "this STATE is in trouble." Then he threatens COPS in FAIRFIELD.

I think he is threatening "GOVERNMENT LIFE" – the lifes of government workers.

He says he will kill 9 in Sacramento, the State capital.

There is a large Zodiac symbol surrounded by four small Zodiac symbols – how might that be connected to the 4 PI Occult group?

Zamantha, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Fri Sep 03, 2010 2:15 am

On the Old ZodiacZee forum there was quite alot of discussion of the "POSSIBLE" Occult PI connection. I understand this is not a fact, but just another theory. But
it seems to me that is all we really have at this time. I’m just thinkin of all possible angles/theories. 4 satellite Celtic crosses surrounding the large one could indicate indicate 4P/4 PI.
What does the 4 Zodiac Cross mean to you? Or does anyone else have an idea……… Seems like a clew to me.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Fri Sep 03, 2010 6:18 am

… One interesting thing will be if and when I get the envelope, to see that writing, and also to see that stamp….

Yes, the envelope will be interesting to see.

I notice that according to the FBI the envelope was fully addressed to the Examiner (with street name & No.). No other Zodiac letters to newspapers contain a street address apart from the 1974 Citizen Card (if you count that one) as far as I can see ….Another reason to doubt this one, I’m afraid. ….[A couple of envelopes to individuals did have street addresses i.e. Belli letter & the Halloween card]

Link: Envelope addresses at ZK…. http://www.zodiackiller.com/Letters.html

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Fri Sep 03, 2010 6:41 am

Wonder what "go for the government life" means

Hmmm the cover up we heard bits an pieces about? A Gov’t cover up? The 4 small cross marks, back to that 4 PI theory……..even if it’s a fake, maybe
the writer knew something. I’m just trying to think out of the box……………

I read "GO FOR THE GOVT LIFE, DONT FORGET ME" to mean he was moving, maybe for a GOVT job some place else. Saying DONT FORGET ME, suggests to me that he wasnt going to be around, whether he was killing or not. Maybe that could explain his 3 year pause in writing in the early to mid 70’s

Theforeigner, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Fri Sep 03, 2010 8:04 am

Wonder what "go for the government life" means

Hmmm the cover up we heard bits an pieces about? A Gov’t cover up? The 4 small cross marks, back to that 4 PI theory……..even if it’s a fake, maybe
the writer knew something. I’m just trying to think out of the box……………

I´ll jump on the out of the box thinking for minute:

What if Zodiac, in som way was working for the CIA, and they found out he was the Zodiac, and covered it up?
They couldn´t have one of their men turning out to be the Zodiac serial killer could they?
Sure would explain all the mysteries surounding this case.

Just a out of the box theorie of course

Theforeigner, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Fri Sep 03, 2010 8:08 am

Concerning wheter the Melvin Belli letter was a true Zodiac letter:

Could there be any doubt? there was a piece of Paul Stines bloody shirt in that letter:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac_Killer

On December 20, 1969, exactly one year after the murders of David Faraday and Betty Lou Jensen, the Zodiac mailed a letter to Belli, including another swatch of Stine’s shirt; the Zodiac claimed he wanted Belli to help him.

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:00 am

Concerning wheter the Melvin Belli letter was a true Zodiac letter:

Could there be any doubt? there was a piece of Paul Stines bloody shirt in that letter:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac_Killer

On December 20, 1969, exactly one year after the murders of David Faraday and Betty Lou Jensen, the Zodiac mailed a letter to Belli, including another swatch of Stine’s shirt; the Zodiac claimed he wanted Belli to help him.

No doubt, the Belli writer was Z, no other way to explain the shirt pieces

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:03 am

Concerning wheter the Melvin Belli letter was a true Zodiac letter:

Could there be any doubt? there was a piece of Paul Stines bloody shirt in that letter:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac_Killer

On December 20, 1969, exactly one year after the murders of David Faraday and Betty Lou Jensen, the Zodiac mailed a letter to Belli, including another swatch of Stine’s shirt; the Zodiac claimed he wanted Belli to help him.

No doubt, the Belli writer was Z, no other way to explain the shirt pieces

The way I would put it is this: There is no doubt that the writer of the Belli letter killed Paul Stine, because he sent in a bit of the bloody shirt. That the writer of the Belli letter is Zodiac is established by the handwriting on the letter.

Azazel, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:15 am

And remember that when the letter was sent there wasnt any Zodiac boards around.
It would be easier to falsify a letter nowdays. We know that he used certain stamps.
We know all the things thats been disscussed for the last decade. Or more.
About the writing, the tone etc.
Since some of the letter had complete adresses there is no telling which real or fake upon that.
Ofcourse if you know that much about the case to make a good fake you would know he usually left out the complete adress.
I dont think anyone can dissmiss or confirm the letter yet.
Great to have it posted anyways.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:18 am

On the Old ZodiacZee forum there was quite alot of discussion of the "POSSIBLE" Occult PI connection. I understand this is not a fact, but just another theory. But
it seems to me that is all we really have at this time. I’m just thinkin of all possible angles/theories. 4 satellite Celtic crosses surrounding the large one could indicate indicate 4P/4 PI.
What does the 4 Zodiac Cross mean to you? Or does anyone else have an idea……… Seems like a clew to me.

I don’t know what it means!

If this is a hoaxer it could just be his way of trying to be like the mysterious Zodiac.

Four crosshair – circle/crosses around a big one – I just don’t know what that could mean.

There are also five code symbols, six if you count the crosshair in line with them.

If you just apply the Harden Code Key you get:

Y I N H N D

Or:

S I N H N D

With a possible mistake on the part of "Zodiac" or a mistake by me, I thought maybe it was just a simple message of:

"Signed, Zodiac"

But it could also be triangle with dot was an "S" then "A" switch in the first Zodiac code, giving you:

Y S/A N H N D

For which you could anagram SANDY HN, and "SANDY" was the given name of a suspect in the possible Zodiac crime of Santa Barbara 1963, Domingos and Edwards. Except, unfortunately, it doesn’t really work because a "switch" is usually one or the other, back and forth, not both (S/A).

sandy betts, Subject: letters Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:02 pm

I have seen many Z like letters, some were shown to me by Tom V. They were all very good, and believable. There are certain characteristics that the experts see, that the average person wouldn’t notice.
In one of the conversations I had by phone with Dave Toschi in the early 70’s, he told me that the Zodiac had a strange way of sealing his envelopes. I haven’t read or heard this ever again. if this is true and I have no reason to disbelieve him. Then Z did this so that LE would know if it was him or a copy cat.
I have seen so many Z letters that I have become pretty good at recognising the real ones. True his printing did change with what ever mood he was in at the time he would write them. But certain things he did didn’t change.

Mr Bungle mentioned that the Z never used lined paper, Bruce 3 knew differently as did a few others. The z used lined paper in the Riverside letters.
I have always wondered if the lined paper was taken from Cheri Jo , the night she was killed ? It wouldn’t surprise me at all , that the Z would have done that, with his in your face personality.
Or he did it to make the police think, that it was a student who wrote the letters ?

I am in no way close to being a hand writing expert, but then the experts that I have read about concerning Z letters, are not that proficient either. So far the notes I have received by the man who is or pretends to be the Zodiac, these experts have been 50/50 on those notes. I have seen that happen with the other known Z notes.
I looked very closely at the ones shown here, and I do believe that they are in fact written by the Zodiac. Sure its easy to try and copy his printing, but he has certain strokes most miss when they copy. The envelopes should have the strange way of sealing them according to Dave Toschi.

The cipher shown with the large Z logo that has 4 of them surrounding it, tells me that the clues I have been given over the yrs, are 4 people connected working in tandem. This letter also suggests that to be true.
A po box belonging to Darlene’s sister Pam in Pittsburg Ca. , had the clue R P H + ME with small Z logos under each initial (again the number 4).
Have you noticed that Zodiac used the 4th letter of the alphabet D ,as also his logo ? This can be verified by looking at the solved ciphers.

Regardless of if I am wrong or not about these letters , I think its a good idea to put everything out on the table to be looked at. Sharing is the only way we can get everything together, with out the infantile bashing ! Why waste energy with negativity ? It can only deplete the brains power. To coin the phrase : "Knowledge is power"

tahoe27, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:54 pm

I looked very closely at the ones shown here, and I do believe that they are in fact written by the Zodiac. Sure its easy to try and copy his printing, but he has certain strokes most miss when they copy. The envelopes should have the strange way of sealing them according to Dave Toschi.

I would think if there was a special way Zodiac sealed the envelopes, it would be known with this letter and it would have been put on the list of confirmed letters.

This letter was sent during the height of Zodiac’s letters. If it were years later, I might question the change in style.

Zodiac told us he was no longer going to announce who he killed or was going to kill…and I believe him.

bruce3, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Fri Sep 03, 2010 1:01 pm

Sandy,
Thank you for your message.What did Toschi mean a strange way of sealing his letters?Did he place the flap after it was moistened into the envelope and seal it to the letter or what? Or did Z just seal half of the flap? You would think the FBI would have noted this ‘strange’ procedure.

Can’t figure that out.I know there was no DNA on flaps on real Z letters.The April ’78 did have DNA on the flap.

As far as this letter/s goes DNA testing should be done.The stamp would be important.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Fri Sep 03, 2010 1:50 pm

Mr Bungle mentioned that the Z never used lined paper, Bruce 3 knew differently as did a few others. The z used lined paper in the Riverside letters.

You’re assuming that Zodiac murdered Cheri Jo Bates. In reality, there is no real proof that he did, other than his taking belated credit for it. There’s also no proof he actually wrote the letters. It’s all assumptions. It’s not as if Zodiac never lied in his letters or took false credit for murders he did not commit. I stand by my statement.

bruce3, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Fri Sep 03, 2010 2:46 pm

Bungle,
This case is full of unknowns even amongst experts so there are debatable issues such as the Bates case.The ’66 envelopes were written by Z according to Morrell CA State Examiner who was world authority on Z’s writing.He also said the three ’67 notes were authored by young Z too.I accept his expertise so for me it’ s’ done.For you it’s not -so we move on here.
The ’66 Confession contents after I studied them off/on since ’87 is Z as compared to his 69-74 series.There are some who don’t accept all or even some of the ’74 missives so there you go on another debable issue.1/29/74 does seem more acceptable to some though.
I don’t leave reseaching these contraversial cases or letters as it may be a Z and may yield some clue -who knows?

All of the Z elements are there even to using "twich",etc. Gives warnings to an entire city as did Z later ,demanding the letter to be published,giving crime details,the ‘game,’sending letter/s to the newspaper,envelope details,etc.,etc.
He used antidetection techiques as did Z.I think the Bates case shows Z’s ability to remain undetected as we have with canonical murders.My thought only MTO

More exotic -so dump fast- as late Z expert since ’68 Dave Peterson and I agreed on this:there was a full moon,there were ‘water’ connections that some,but not all,of course,have observed-Riverside CC/Riverside Dr.where old car-no doubt the killers- was parked 10/30/66.
Examples:Riverside;Lake Herman Road,SB victims were next to beach/water;Blue Rock Springs;Lake Berryessa;Washington St.;Lake Tahoe.Vallejo was called "Water town."Call from LB at Carwash and river next to it.Since h called himself "Zodiac" it would seem he had some interest in such things,but it’s all speculation,of course.Water or it’s symbolism is part of the occult.There ware three water signs in astrology.Dave noted that zodiac killed when there were a lot of planets transiting in water signs.An astrologer I got to look up charts,etc.and observed the same thing when he looked at Z kill times.There are three in earth,three in air and three in fire signs.FYI

CII and other CA State reports affirm CJB as a Z victim Now,if one is RSPD it’s a no go!

Crime was with a knife on a young female.Z used a knife at LB and killed a young female.Z did not always attack couples as we know.Paul Stine is one example.
Z did not claim responsibilty in a normal fashion,but he said they "stumbled" on my ‘Riverside activity.’It was like he begrudged them of their discovery.

KJ,DL,RD,LE(SB) will be argued about till the end of Z time too.

Of course,none of this forensically proves Z killed Cheri.We have those who do not accept LHR even LB either as Zer’s.Some hold to SB as Z as I do,but some do not.It goes on and on with this unsolved complicated case.

The same holds true with Jack the Ripper case.Scholars argue as to who and who wasn’t a JTR victim and this goes for the canonicity of letters too.I have feared this would end up a ‘Ripper’ as one retired detective said.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Fri Sep 03, 2010 3:37 pm

Bruce,

Morrill also authenticated the fake ’78 letter. Many of his findings have been disputed. The only thing that really looks like Z handwriting on the ’67 letters is the "ATTN: Editor" from the Hautz letter. We already know he didn’t write the Hautz letter itself, so the chances he is responsible for "ATTN: Editor" are very, very slim.

The typed confession does have a Zodiac feel to it, but I’m sure that would hold true to many other letters written by murderers or simply deranged copycats. The "demand" that it be published was laid out more as a suggestion, as opposed to Zodiac, who made no bones that the letters be published or he’d keep killing. Zodiac wasn’t the first or last to send letters to the press. I’m not saying it couldn’t have been Zodiac, just that there’s nothing that solidifies it as being Zodiac.

You mention "anti-detection techniques"…care to explain further here? And please, the whole "water connection" thing is tenuous at best.

You act as if Bates is generally accepted as a Zodiac victim outside of Riverside, and that is simply not a fact. If it was, then Bates would be widely listed as a Zodiac victim, and she is not. All of the respected websites list her as a "possible" victim, as they should. Once again, this is not to say Zodiac definitely didn’t kill Bates, just that the evidence doesn’t support this definitively.

I’m not even getting into Johns, Lass and the rest…hell, there’s no proof Lass was even murdered, much less murdered by Zodiac!

My point is that you have to look at what is definitive in this case. That would mean you start with the ’69 letters and the LHR murder. From ’69 on, Zodiac used the same paper and felt tip pens. This letter shares neither of those things. Belli’s letter is right after this and he uses the exact same techniques as the accepted letters. Why would he suddenly change for this one letter? Why no piece of Stine’s shirt? We know Zodiac has more than enough left to have send a piece, as he did with Belli’s. Even the other Fairfield fakes are more reminiscent of the genuine letters than this! That’s not even taking into account that the handwriting isn’t close enough and the message doesn’t really jive with the authenticated letters. What’s more, this letter had to have been seen by other handwriting experts, and I’d have to assume that Morrill and Shimoda had an opportunity to look at it since they had a shot at all of the others, yet neither of them (or anyone else) authenticated it.

When you look at the real deal facts, this letter cannot be considered viable.

zodio, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Fri Sep 03, 2010 4:49 pm

IMHO this one is fake. Too many dissimilarities for me.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Fri Sep 03, 2010 5:14 pm

Yeppers, Zodio, I agree, and Mr. Bungle…you read my mind….wow….

, Subject: Observations Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:13 pm

The letter is definitely fascinating as well as all the other member insights and findings. Zam brought my attention to the new find and after I shared my thoughts with her on it, she implored me to share my observations with the other members.

One thing that did pop out for me was the 4 satellite Celtic crosses surrounding the large one, which for me indicates the 4P-4 Pi-Process Church trademark sigil and pattern. Also, this Zodiac mania of "You better Print" this and that, may have nothing to do with a patent narcissism, but may instead be a public message to either a remote handler or someone possibly directing the terror/murder spree as an operation. It could also represent a symbolic marking of territory.

A part of the letter reads "… I will go for the Government life so don’t foreget (sic) me" which seems to indicate that that he is declaring a retirement or change of pattern, but a continuation of his twisted ‘mission’. It does not mean he’s going to kill government personnel of any sort in my opinion. He spells ‘Government’ with an initial cap which denotes a respect for the institution which may have been an instilled trait. The author of the letter also writes on the lined compositional paper in a manner that depicts someone who learned to write straight on the lines late in life. The poor spelling which I once thought might be a code in and of itself, also reflects this. It’s almost child-like and is very reminiscent of Manson family writings which also contained simple errors i.e. Healter Skelter written on the wall at the Tate murder scene.

So far that’s my take on it.

– RD

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sat Sep 04, 2010 10:41 am

Clearly there is something different about the writing in the Fairfield letters than most other Z communication of that time. As the FBI puts it, they see "distortion" and say they were not "written as freely". But they also note matching characteristics and say the Fairfield letters "may have" been prepared by the Zodiac, which is exactly the same langauge the FBI analyst used in regard to the Riverside writing – a lukewarm endorsement. Graysmith wrote these off as copycats.

Was Zodiac in a difficult position when he wrote these letters? Was he traveling in a car, writing on his knee, as opposed to sitting at a desk? Was he intentionally altering his style, as he had done and would do again? Or are these just the work of a very busy and perhaps insane hoaxer?

Why did he pick Fairfield? What is significant about that place? Just random? A train was derailed in Fairfield.

What leans me towards perhaps being real is something I don’t see the critics here or on other boards addressing. If the Fairfield letter is fake, why does the cry for help match what came 13 days later in a confirmed Zodiac letter, the Belli letter, which also asked for help? Just coincidence? Lucky guess? How would a hoaxer know the real Zodiac would pick up on the Dunbar fake?

Also at the time of the Fairfield letters Zodiac had not made a point of threatening police, other than a joke that if cops believed his bus plan they deserved to have "holes in their heads". Both Fairfield letters threaten police – and in the 4/20/70 confirmed Zodiac letter, Z says "there is more glory in killing a cop than a (kid)". And Zodiac later hinted he killed Officer Radetich. Once again, the hoaxer made a lucky guess in predicting Zodiac would explicitly threaten police?

Also, the letter threatens to kill 9 people in Sacramento, and threatens lives of government employees. Two of the next probable Zodiac victims, Hakari and Bennallack, were Sacramento residents, and Bennallack a government employee, a court reporter. So, for a third time, the hoaxer got lucky?

These may well be fake, but I think these issues are serious signs pointing that they could be real, and I have yet to see the critics, here or on other boards, address them.

If the Fairfield/Sacramento letters are real, was Z trying to create a new (false) persona? To make police think he was a Fairfield or Sacramento resident, into astrology, obsessed with killing cops, mentally ill and wanting help (that theme of which was continued in the Belli letter)?

Also good to keep in mind Z had many different styles.

Also, something I don’t see discussed much, the FBI handwriting expert, who has better quality versions and knowledge we don’t, concludes that "ALL" the letters sent to the FBI at that point in time were "PROBABLY" done by "one person", and he specifically inlcudes the Fairfield letters.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sat Sep 04, 2010 11:28 am

AK

I think that when the FBI said this letter was not "written as freely" as some of the others they meant the author labored over this one more……….ie……..instead of getting on a roll and writing out the letter the author concentrated on each letter. Thats my opinion and its what I see in the letter as well………..it does not flow freely like some of the more "confirmed" letters.

I am still on the fence regarding this communique……….somewhere around 50/50 in any case it is very interesting.

Mr Bungle
I am reading your counterpoints with great interest and I will adress one of them now. Your point that z always used the same paper and pen is a good one……….however……….z in my mind is the serial killer that broke all the rules………..just when you have his MO pegged as "likes to gun down young lovers" he uses a knife………….then he kills a lone cabbie. It is also obvious to me that he sees himself as a master of misinformation…………the bomb threat is a great example of this. So if in the future this letter is somehow "confirmed" it would be just another example of z breaking his pattern…………I do think he was/is a smart man but not genuis level………one of the smartest things he did was keep breaking that patteren.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:09 pm

AK, your handwriting comparisons sheet is highly misleading. You’re including many exemplars that are may not be Zodiac in the first place (including the fairly obvious Hautz cursive) and a few that simply were not authenticated in any way whatsoever! Also, including the cipher writing is a bad idea, as it really isn’t "handwriting" and was obviously very carefully done to form the tight block style.

Just because there are some similar things in the Fairfield letters when compared to the genuine ones doesn’t mean that this strengthens the case towards them being genuine. If you think logically, why wouldn’t a crazed murderer target cops? It’s not as if Zodiac hadn’t explicitly shown his hatred for police before this! Why wouldn’t he declare his need for help (which has happened many times in similar cases)? These are things that are purely coincidental because anyone could have come up with them! I wouldn’t even call that "lucky", I’d call that "natural progression" and a logical jump. You say we haven’t been addressing these things…well, you should go back and read a bit, as Tahoe and I have both discussed this. You’re also assuming Zodiac "picked up on" the Dunbar show for his help plea. Isn’t it more logical that he simply wanted help?

You’re also trying to connect murders that are NOT confirmed to be associated with Zodiac to prove the letters as genuine. That’s a really slippery slope there. The further you go outside the realm of fact only distorts the case. You bring up Sacramento and "probable" victims, yet there’s simply no evidence that Zodiac was involved in these murders. Could he have been? Possibly. But there’s nothing that proves this! You site that this letter writer would kill 9, yet can only come up with 3 possible victims and can’t show how they are connected. If you try hard enough, I’m sure you can find murders in all the places this letter writer mentions, but it still does not prove this writer had anything to do with any of them!

You’re also relying far too much on small bits of text in the FBI files that mention a "possibility" of one writer while totally dismissing the opinions of Morrill (who admittedly had his own doubters) and Shimoda, the two men who authenticated the letters that are widely accepted as genuine (this letter not being one of them). No one’s ignoring the FBI stuff, we’re just not accepting it as the be all, end all of this letter. I don’t care if "this is the best the FBI does", they leave room for doubt, while Morrill and Shimoda didn’t. You’re right, they gave this letter the same lukewarm endorsement as the Riverside letters, and with good reason…they may all not be from Zodiac!

As I stated earlier, if you stick with the absolutely indisputable Zodiac writings (’69-74), then this letter has no merit. Once you try to use disputed letters to prove another disputed letter, you’re heading down a truly troubled path, and nothing can be solved. The same goes with trying to use disputed crimes.

Jon, just saw you posted as I was writing this, so I’ll address some of your concerns…

"Not as freely written" means that the handwriting is most likely not his natural writing. When you write freely, your writing has certain "tells"…in this case, the writer either tried to disguise his handwriting or tried to copy Zodiac’s…I go for the latter.

As for "breaking the pattern", while he did this with the crimes themselves, he really stuck with the plain paper or greeting cards (’69 to ’74, again…the confirmed, no-doubt letters) and felt tip pens. This was as much of his signature as the crosshair symbol itself. It doesn’t make sense for me that he’d try to break the pattern like this, only to go right back to his normal style, which he then stuck with in the remaining definite letters. That and the handwriting doesn’t match. And there’s nothing in the text of the letter that really jives with Zodiac’s style.

I’d say it’s just me, but there are others that agree with me too.

Ricardo, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:12 pm

I am interested in this message whether or not it was from the Zodiac.

This message is a threat and it could have been sent by a different killer.

Maybe it would be possible to link this message to different murders, not necessarily the ones committed by the Zodiac.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:35 pm

……I am interested in this message whether or not it was from the Zodiac……….

Me too.

Zamantha, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:47 pm

……I am interested in this message whether or not it was from the Zodiac……….

Me too.

Me three :star:

entropy, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sat Sep 04, 2010 6:03 pm

Me four (to some extent…).

The FBI files, however, clearly indicate that the newly found letter and "Bleeding knife" drawing are part of the same communication, postmarked from Fairfield, CA on 12/16/69. I posted a comparison of this and other letters from Fairfield on Mike’s site for discussion:

12/16/69:

12/7/69:

1971:

I think all of these letters seem very much alike in both handwriting and tone and have a certain derivative quality unlike confirmed Zodiac letters. Of interest is the boasting of dozens of new victims all over the Bay area in the 12/16/69 (including Fairfield) while Zodiac wrote a confirmed letter to Belli from San Francisco just four days talking about taking his "nineth and possibly tenth victom".

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sat Sep 04, 2010 9:59 pm

I think all of these letters seem very much alike in both handwriting and tone and have a certain derivative quality unlike confirmed Zodiac letters. Of interest is the boasting of dozens of new victims all over the Bay area in the 12/16/69 (including Fairfield) while Zodiac wrote a confirmed letter to Belli from San Francisco just four days talking about taking his "nineth and possibly tenth victom".

Just to clarify, you meant FUTURE victims…and this I agree with. He’d have gone from talking about all the people he planned to kill to asking for help so he didn’t go for 9 or 10. The Belli letter certainly makes it seems as though Zodiac wasn’t planning ahead…this letter makes it seem as though he’s got it all planned out. Once again, this doesn’t jive with a genuine Zodiac letter.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sat Sep 04, 2010 10:02 pm

Entropy –

He is NOT boasting of 38 new murders, he is threatening 38 new murders in the future.

As Rufus points out, eventually Z would claim 37.

Bungle I have no problem if you don’t think this is a real Z letter. You make some good points..SFPD apparently did not think it real, FBI says "may" then says "probably".

As for threatening cops, what previous serial killer went from killing couples or women to cops? None that I know of. Perhaps the "hoaxer" made a lucky guess, but he was right on the real Z threatening cops, and asking for help and perhaps killing in Sacramento.

Food for thought…for me, anyway. Maybe not for you, and others, which is fine.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sat Sep 04, 2010 10:07 pm

AK, he meant future victims, which is what he psoted at ZKF. I was correcting him, but we posted at basically the same time

As for the cops thing, it was well known that Zodiac had an issue with cops and called them out in his letters. Making a threat would not be a huge leap of faith.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sat Sep 04, 2010 10:39 pm

Maybe…

entropy, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sat Sep 04, 2010 10:50 pm

Yes, by "new" I meant future victims. I presume that’s what the letter-writer (whoever it was) is indicating by stating "I will kill in…".

Thanks for the clarification.

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sat Sep 04, 2010 11:09 pm

Entropy wrote this over on ZKfacts…

"Four days after this letter was written, Zodiac (the real one) was back in San Francisco, writing to Melvin Belli about taking his "nineth and posibly tenth victom". Apparently, he forgot about writing from Fairfield threatening dozens of future victims all of the Bay area"

Thats a good point Entropy. However in the bleeding December 1969 knife letter, the writer claimed 38 victims would be his total. That was not released to the public. When Z wrote his exorcist letter, 4 years later in 1974, Z claimed 37! That’s pretty close…maybe a coincidence, maybe not! Seems weird to me that Z would wind up with almost the exact same number of victims as was mentioned in the Exorcist letter, especially since Z couldnt know what the Bleeding Knife letter from 4 years earlier said, as it was not released.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:56 am

I really think it’s just coincidental that the number is close. However, I might have given this letter a little more credibility if Zodiac had claimed 38. If the number was exactly the same, then that’s pretty weird. As they say, close but no cigar

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:38 am

I really think it’s just coincidental that the number is close. However, I might have given this letter a little more credibility if Zodiac had claimed 38. If the number was exactly the same, then that’s pretty weird. As they say, close but no cigar

Close enough for me to think its weird! He could have said 22, or 43, or 66, or 100, but he said 37…, only one number off of the bleeding knife number,maybe he wanted police to wonder who was going to be victim 38?

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:57 am

ChrisY posted this on another forum:

"The author claims to be the Zodiac. It was sent from Fairfield on December 16, 1969. It began with the words "This is the Zodiac speaking." It contained characteristic misspellings. It contained line drawings, as did the bus-bomb letter. These reasons alone make it an interesting topic of discussion.
The FBI did not affirm the letter, but said that it "may contain some distortion" and was "not written as freely" as other "threatening letters." This isn’t exactly a statement that rules the letter out completely. Rather, it means that the result is "inconclusive." So, while offering the letter as genuine would be irresponsible, serious discussion would certainly be warranted, in my opinion, if only to rule the letter out conclusively. That has not been done to the satisfaction of many.
Authentication by handwriting analysis has proven to be subjective. When a letter examiner changes his or her opinion about the authenticity of a letter after being introduced to outside information not found in the document itself (as they did with the 1978 letter) it proves this point rather well. On the other hand, forensic methods such as DNA and fingerprints and certain other evidence provide more concrete proof of a letter’s authenticity -provided the samples are pure and their source is beyond doubt."

Chris….WELL SAID, and spoken for truth my Friend. :cheers: For those that seem to want to write this letter off quickly, perhaps more time and thought is needed?

entropy, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sun Sep 05, 2010 9:50 am

Good observation about the victim total, morf.

I totally agree that, barring any DNA testing which will never occur, this letter will never definitively be ruled in or out as a genuine Zodiac communication and we all can just offer our opinions. Forty years after the fact, the job of scrutinizing these letters will only be pursued by us, the wacky internet Zodiac community. :joker:

For what it’s worth, I’ll offer a few reasons why I think this letter is likely NOT authentic:

– It has not been authenticated by any law enforcement agency or Zodiac himself. After Stine, Zodiac had the opportunity to authenticate any communication he wished by including a piece of Stine’s shirt. There is nothing in this letter that couldn’t have been gleaned from public knowledge of the case.

– The FBI, as you indicated, while not endorsing or dismissing the letter, indicates some disparity in handwriting and questions about "distortion".

– The letter is postmarked from Fairfield, CA, where several questionable Zodiac letters were postmarked from, including one just nine days earlier. The vast majority of Zodiac letters were written from San Francisco including the Belli letter, four days after this correspondence. Why write from Fairfield (threatening to kill in Fairfield and areas nearby) and then return days later to begin challenging SFPD once again (while seemingly ignoring the expansive threats made in this Fairfield letter)?

– The letter is written on lined paper, which was never used by Zodiac. It looks to be written far less freely than any other Zodiac letter, with the possible exception of the Belli letter.

– The cipher, if that’s what it’s intended to be, is sloppy as hell and completely indecipherable (6 letters, two of which are repeating). Zodiac’s ciphers were always neatly aligned and carefully constructed, even if he made mistakes in his own ciphers. FWIW, all of the other letters from Fairfield contain "ciphers" and all have the same sloppy construction.

– This letter seems to focus on gore (The Bleeding Knife of Zodiac, "look for more blood"). This seems unlike Zodiac, IMO, who never even acknowledged his stabbing of Hartnell and Shepard and seemed more interested in documenting his own involvement with the crime than describing gore.

– The seemingly random threats to kill a specific number of people in given cities, several of which Zodiac never had any known connection with. Zodiac was always cagey about his victim count and never gave any indication of where he planned to kill.

– The parting "ha! ha! ha!"… Zodiac did seem to have a warped sense of humor but this ending seems juvenile, even by his standards.

Just my two cents…

tahoe27, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:10 pm

The thing is…if you are going to pretend to be the Zodiac killer in letters, you darn well better be able to somewhat mimic his writing style. Wouldn’t starting off "this is the Zodiac speaking" almost be a given? Threatening cops, drawing a circle-cross, etc. ??

Had this author spoken about going to the mall, I don’t think LE would have considered it being from Zodiac.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:38 pm

Another thing that flags me as a fake. It was written to the Examiner—with a full address.

After the Examiner’s ridiculous request to have Zodiac turn himself in to them, he never wrote them again. What a joke of a request that was.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sun Sep 05, 2010 2:34 pm

Ed Neil has an interesting observation over at ZKF:

Not only that, gentlemen, but in the 11-9-1969 letter, Z specifically said on page 1, "I shall no longer announce to anyone. when I comitt my murders, they shall look like routine robberies, killings of anger, + a few fake accidents, etc." Why was he 37 days later suddenly announcing his intention to kill 35 civilians and 3 cops? If he killed 3 cops in Fairfield, everyone would have known who did it! Did he forget he was going to "change the way the collecting of slaves"?

zodio, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:59 pm

Of those letters posted the one about turning himself in looks the best but I still seriously doubt that one too.
‘Z’ was a known liar though so anything he wrote is suspicious.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:22 pm

We can speculate and theorize all kind of reasons why these Fairfield letters don’t fit or do fit with the Belli letter or later Zodiac letters and events.

I am not aware of a previous serial killer directly threatening police. Taunting and playing games with police, yes, from Jack the Ripper to the Mad Bomber. But not directly threatening the lives of police officers. So I do find it interesting that the "hoaxer" correctly predicted the real Zodiac would later threaten police and even hint at credit for killing a cop. And the asking for help in the Fairfiled letter matching asking for help in the Belli letter.

Bottom line is this, for me: Robert Graysmith dismisses the Fairfield letters as fake, without telling us why (maybe Allen was placed somewhere other than Fairfield on those dates), but the FBI handwriting expert says that ALL the letters given to the FBI, including the Fairfield and Belli ones not written as freely, were "PROBABLY" done by "ONE WRITER".

Hmm, Robert Graysmith or the FBI handwriting expert? Who to go with here? :scratch:

The evidence is split, so for me, right now, knowing that the FBI probably had information we don’t, and they have the expertise, not seeing enough to think they are wrong, I tend to let their verdict tip the scales slightly in favor of it being real.

Here is the one that said "probably."

Actually, and this very interesting, this examiner notes the distortion and less free writing on the Fairfield 12/7/69 letter (Q34 and 35), but then in regards to the new document, the April 28 1970 greeting card, with "I hope you enjoy..", he concludes that in regard to "ALL" the documents in the case given to the FBI (which clearly INCLUDES FAIRFIELD) they were "PROBABLY PREPARED BY ONE WRITER".

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:41 pm

AK, they used "probably" once but "may be" many more times, and neither is a particularly ringing endorsement.

I decided to go back through all of the genuine Zodiac letters, and realized something…Zodiac really never did actually threaten to kill police at all. The closest things you can find are:

-April 20, 1970: "…I hope you do not think that I was the one who wiped out that blue meannie with a bomb at the cop station. Even though I talked about killing school children with one. It just wouldnt doo to move in on someone elses teritory. But there is more glory in killing a cop than a cid because a cop can shoot back." This really doesn’t read as a direct threat if you think about it. In fact, he tries to distance himself from the murder of the cop.

-June 26, 1970: "I shot a man sitting in a parked car with a .38." While there was thought that he was referring to Officer Radetich, another man was subsequently arrested for the murder (he has since been released as the case was overturned). All the same, he never directly threatens a cop nor does he say he killed a cop here. And there were only thoughts that he was hinting at it here, but no evidence that he actually was.

He liked to screw with the cops, but never really threatened to murder any.

So basically, the direct threat to kill police in this letter ALSO differs from other Zodiac communications.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sun Sep 05, 2010 11:00 pm

"But there is more glory in killing a cop than a cid because a cop can shoot back."

Hmm, pretty close to a threat. A veiled threat, but a threat. At least thats how I see it.

Radetich can be debated, but most think Z was hinting at credit for killing that policeman.

The FBI used "may" then used "probably". Take it for what its worth to you. If the FBI handwriting analyst said "probably" fake, I am sure you would be mentioning that! He said "probably" real, I give that some weight. It seems Morrill thought Fairfield probably fake. Morril had an excellent reputation, and knew the case well, but most agree he made a mistake on the April 78 letter. At that point in 12/69, they had not yet seen the many, many different styles of writing that Zodiac would use.

Who knows? To me the evidence – at this stage – leans slightly in favor of it being real.

If and when I get the envelope, that may tip it back to likely fake, or tip it to more likley real.

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sun Sep 05, 2010 11:42 pm

That ‘glory in killing a cop’ thing sounds like a threat to me, too.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Mon Sep 06, 2010 12:13 am

AK, I agree with you on Morrill. His conclusions haven’t always been accepted and some (the RCC desk) don’t make me too comfortable either. But remember Shimoda looked at most of them too (though he, too, once thought the ’78 letter was real then reversed his position) and Terry Pascoe did as well. It wasn’t just Morrill looking.

Most that thought Zodiac was hinting at Radetich were also looking at possibilities from that area. For all we know, if there truly was a murder to be associated, it could have been from miles away. Radetich was also the closest in time from the post date on the letter, which helped the police make their assumptions.

Nacht, in itself, that line could be construed as a threat, but that’s why I reproduced the text leading up to it. If you include that full statement, it almost seems like an admittance more than a threat, at least to me.

Regardless, it’s a pretty decent jump from hinting at killing a cop to coming straight out and saying "I AM GOING TO KILL COPS" and going as far as to number how many he would kill.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:28 am

" But remember Shimoda looked at most of them too (though he, too, once thought the ’78 letter was real then reversed his position) and Terry Pascoe did as well. It wasn’t just Morrill looking."

True, though I think Morrill was the main guy on the Zodiac case for Cal DOJ, then Pascoe took over. Shimoda worked for the Postal Inspectors.

All I know for sure is that no Fairfield letter appears on the SFPD list of Zodiac letters. I think SFPD relied on Morrill. And I think Graysmith did as well.

So though I have seen no opinion (pro, con or mixed) from Morrill (or Pascoe) on any Fairfield letter, it appears Morrill thought it likely fake, or was at best undecided. And the FBI thought them "probably" real. An expert gave a thumbs down on the 1990 card, but I think that was probably real, and a lot of others do as well.

And Terry Pascoe authenticated the 1986 letter as a real Zodiac letter, yet the majority of researchers seemed to dismiss that as qucikly as the Fairfield letters. I think the 86 letter was probably real, and I am undecided on the 87 letter. Morrill said all Riverside writings were likely Zodiac, yet some researchers disagree. I am not a handwriting expert, so unless something looks very fake to me or doesn’t make sense in the context of known facts, I rely more on the expert opinions.

I am putting together several FOIA requests, to FBI, Cal DOJ and SFPD, to try to get all unreleased possible Zodiac letters and envelopes, along with any expert opinions. Once we have all that, we will be in a better position (hopefully) to make more informed judgements.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:19 am

I’m going to have to go through the later questionable letters in the morning, as I don’t generally reference them, and as such, am not as overall familiar with them as the "classic" letters. I tend to have doubts on all of the later letters.

Just to be 100% factual, the "probably" came in reference to the "Dragon" card (undeniably a genuine communication). While it does refer to "all of the threatening letters from this case", it probably didn’t hurt that the communication that was being discussed in the memo was definitely real.

As for Morrill, Shimoda & Pascoe, I think this very much speaks to how imperfect a "science" handwriting analysis truly is. I guess we’ll have to wait until Barto comes back with her "expert" opinion

God, I couldn’t even TYPE that with a straight face!

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:35 am

You can see they sent Morf the wrong envelope, seen below. They sent him the one that had the CANCER FLT 555. I have already requested the 12/16/69 Fairfield envelope, hopefully I will get it.

I wanted to clear up something about this envelope. I made FOIA requests for multiple questioned documents in the Z case. The FBI FOIA page said that you have to make a separate request for each questioned document. I think they may have answered my requests in one single mailing, and that is why I got two separate questioned docs in the same envelope. It wouldnt have been as confusing if they were in separate envelopes, or if they had a written explantion or other info for each document.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:45 pm

Finally, here it is, a suspected letter from Zodiac…"THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE"

The FBI did not give me any additional info about this letter, no facts, no dates, nothing.

Just something interesting (to me atleast), if you use those numbers and search for ‘31.6, -83.98’ in GoogleMaps, you get a house in Georgia. Infact, the arrow is practically on top of the house, and it isn’t in a crowded area either.

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:19 pm

Finally, here it is, a suspected letter from Zodiac…"THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE"

The FBI did not give me any additional info about this letter, no facts, no dates, nothing.

Just something interesting (to me atleast), if you use those numbers and search for ‘31.6, -83.98’ in GoogleMaps, you get a house in Georgia. Infact, the arrow is practically on top of the house, and it isn’t in a crowded area either.

Is it in Atlanta??

Zamantha, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:31 pm

Not sure IF I did it correctly. But using pootyxx info, I came up with: 872-972 Pearson Rd. Sylvester, GA 31791

2 hours 54 minutes from Atlanta.

zodio, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:19 am

Using Itouchmap.com I get between Albany and Sylvester just to the right of a house.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sun Sep 12, 2010 11:32 am

I wasn’t sure if it meant anything to anyone, but I just thought it was a bit strange considering the location is exactly where the house is…

Is there any way we can find out if this means anything? Also, I’m not very farmilliar with the Atlanta Child Murders, but I seem to recall someone mentioning that there may be a connection between those and Z?

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:07 pm

A letter came in from "Zodiac" claiming credit for some of the Atlanta Child Murders.

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … r-t475.htm

The FBI could NOT rule out the real Zodiac beiing the writer, but did not say it was him either.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:12 pm

Well, then this becomes even more interesting then, and worrying.

EDIT: I’ve always thought that the Halloween card was odd and after looking I’ve found another interesting coincidence. Z mentions ’14’ twice, and I’ve always assumed it meant the amount of victims. However, there is a Highway 14 in Georgia that is (once again according to GoogleMaps) 2 hours and 54 minutes away from the Pearson Road address. Does anyone think it’s possible that perhaps he was giving us clues? I have no idea what for though.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:51 pm

Just for fun, I did a map from (A) Iva, SC to (B) Sylvester, GA to (C) Leon County, FL.

Nothing really leaps out at me, though they do form more or less a very rough line.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:19 pm

I am STILL WAITING for the envelope for this 12/16/69 Fairfield letter.

I did find in the FBI files where the examiner wrote down what was on the envelope. I don’t think this is an actual copy of the writing on the envelope, but the examiner writing it down.

Still, until we can get the real thing, it is worth taking a look at.

entropy, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:56 pm

Hmm…

No, it’s not an exact replica from the letters. Perhaps it’s an examiner’s attempt to reproduce some of the crucial points of examination on both the envelope and letters. If nothing else, it certainly appears to be an indication that this was pretty carefully considered and scrutinized.

For what it’s worth, Z usually messed up (or purposely messed up…) dropping a silent e when adding "ing" to a word. I could only find one example similar to the misspelling of "foreget" with the word "nineth" but lots of people probably misspell forget.

Would love to see the envelope. Thanks to you and morf for all of the hard work, AK.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sat Sep 25, 2010 11:40 am

Well i finally got my first FOIA request from the FBI on the "State" letter…

AND THEY DID NOT SEND THE ENVELOPE!!!

URRGGGHHH!

All I got is what Morf has already posted, the state page and the knife page.

Yes I requested it.

Later I did send a follow up request were I mentioned the specific document number of the envelope. So hopefully I will get it soon as part of that request. I still have requests pending for the 78 tape letter, the 69 San Jose, the 71 April woods and the 81 Atlanta, all have specific requests for the envelopes.

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sat Sep 25, 2010 4:40 pm

Glad to see you finally got the stuff. Too bad they didnt give you anything new. I am hoping to get responses to my latest requests in the next couple weeks.

Theforeigner, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:21 pm

Theforeigner wrote:

I have now sent the new letter and the Lake Berryess door to my x-husband and have him take a look at it.
He knows the Zodiac case pretty well, especially the letters/handwriting side of the case due to that he has been my consulter in handwriting matters through the last 4 years,

His educations are typographer, graphic designer and he has a pennmaship. He has worked with this stuf for over 30 years and he is VERY good.
Of course he is not a documnet expert, but it´s pretty close IMO.

I´ll let you know what he says about it.

FWIW for you other forum members;
My x-husband has now used som time to studie the "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE/ THE BLEEDING KNIFE" letter, and his opinion is that the "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE/ THE BLEEDING KNIFE" letter indeed was written by the Zodiac killer.
He says that he has no doubt whatsoever that it was created by the Zodiac killer.

I personaly belive that my x-husbands view and opinion is both professional and unbiased.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:25 pm

TF, I’d love to find out what exactly he found to make him feel that this letter is authentic. I have no doubt that he’s unbiased in this matter, but I think he may be off his rocker

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:36 pm

Theforeigner wrote:

I have now sent the new letter and the Lake Berryess door to my x-husband and have him take a look at it.
He knows the Zodiac case pretty well, especially the letters/handwriting side of the case due to that he has been my consulter in handwriting matters through the last 4 years,

His educations are typographer, graphic designer and he has a pennmaship. He has worked with this stuf for over 30 years and he is VERY good.
Of course he is not a documnet expert, but it´s pretty close IMO.

I´ll let you know what he says about it.

FWIW for you other forum members;
My x-husband has now used som time to studie the "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE/ THE BLEEDING KNIFE" letter, and his opinion is that the "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE/ THE BLEEDING KNIFE" letter indeed was written by the Zodiac killer.
He says that he has no doubt whatsoever that it was created by the Zodiac killer.

I personaly belive that my x-husbands view and opinion is both professional and unbiased.

Foreigner, that is interesting. Does he have any background in writing comparsions or questioned documents? I dont think it’s fair to say he is "off his rocker", but I am interested to see why he thinks that it could be Zodiac.

Zamantha, Subject: THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:41 pm

LOL* I’m also off my rocker( some of you already know that!) As I also feel this is a Z Letter. So look forward to hearing The F. Ex’s reasons.

Theforeigner, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:09 pm

I will ask him to write an explanation for his opinion on this issue.
He did, of course, explain it all to me, orally, in danish, our languish, but all those details I can´t put them into words in english, but I sure will ask him to put it in writing.
It may take som time, but as soon as I get it from him I´ll post it.

But I can say this much; even though the handwriting, between the letter in question, and the other conclusive Zodiac letter handwritings, dosen´t seem to be alike, there are a LOT of significant details in the hand writings that match in his opinion.

He says that two different handwritings that, at first impression, looks like they are very different , with a train eye can be found to indeed be a match due to tiny small significant ways of leading the penn.

And he goes on say that; Just like two handwritings that , at first impression, looks like they are a perfect match,
with a trained eye can be found to indeed NOT be a match, due to that tiny small significant ways of leading the penn are TOO diffrent.

This was probaly a really bad explanation but that´s the best I could do here and now, I hope to get back with my X´s, way better, explanations soon.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:43 pm

I dont think it’s fair to say he is "off his rocker", but I am interested to see why he thinks that it could be Zodiac.

I think it’s fair to say, as he’s not a document examiner, no other document examiner has called this a match, and every other point I’ve brought up that shows this to likely be a fake. This isn’t to say I don’t want to hear his reasoning (as I did ask in my earlier post).

Also, the use of a smiley denotes a joke. I obviously am not calling the man crazy…just wrong (see what I did there? lol)

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sat Sep 25, 2010 10:01 pm

Mr. Bungle – You can reach your own opinion, but the FBI expert did include these Fairfield letters in the "PROBABLY" all by the same hand group.

Bottom line is this, for me: Robert Graysmith dismisses the Fairfield letters as fake, without telling us why (maybe Allen was placed somewhere other than Fairfield on those dates), but the FBI handwriting expert says that ALL the letters given to the FBI, including the Fairfield and Belli ones not written as freely, were "PROBABLY" done by "ONE WRITER".

Hmm, Robert Graysmith or the FBI handwriting expert? Who to go with here? :scratch:

The evidence is split, so for me, right now, knowing that the FBI probably had information we don’t, and they have the expertise, not seeing enough to think they are wrong, I tend to let their verdict tip the scales slightly in favor of it being real.

Here is the one that said "probably."

Actually, and this very interesting, this examiner notes the distortion and less free writing on the Fairfield 12/7/69 letter (Q34 and 35), but then in regards to the new document, the April 28 1970 greeting card, with "I hope you enjoy..", he concludes that in regard to "ALL" the documents in the case given to the FBI (which clearly INCLUDES FAIRFIELD) they were "PROBABLY PREPARED BY ONE WRITER".

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sat Sep 25, 2010 10:08 pm

I dont think it’s fair to say he is "off his rocker", but I am interested to see why he thinks that it could be Zodiac.

I think it’s fair to say, as he’s not a document examiner, no other document examiner has called this a match, and every other point I’ve brought up that shows this to likely be a fake. This isn’t to say I don’t want to hear his reasoning (as I did ask in my earlier post).

Also, the use of a smiley denotes a joke. I obviously am not calling the man crazy…just wrong (see what I did there? lol)

I knew it was a joke, but I do disagree with you, I dont see overwhelming evidence of it being fake. I guess we will agree to disagree. I am not sold on it being real, but I dont see alot making it fake either.

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sat Sep 25, 2010 10:11 pm

Mr. Bungle – You can reach your own opinion, but the FBI expert did include these Fairfield letters in the "PROBABLY" all by the same hand group.

Bottom line is this, for me: Robert Graysmith dismisses the Fairfield letters as fake, without telling us why (maybe Allen was placed somewhere other than Fairfield on those dates), but the FBI handwriting expert says that ALL the letters given to the FBI, including the Fairfield and Belli ones not written as freely, were "PROBABLY" done by "ONE WRITER".

Hmm, Robert Graysmith or the FBI handwriting expert? Who to go with here? :scratch:

The evidence is split, so for me, right now, knowing that the FBI probably had information we don’t, and they have the expertise, not seeing enough to think they are wrong, I tend to let their verdict tip the scales slightly in favor of it being real.

Here is the one that said "probably."

Actually, and this very interesting, this examiner notes the distortion and less free writing on the Fairfield 12/7/69 letter (Q34 and 35), but then in regards to the new document, the April 28 1970 greeting card, with "I hope you enjoy..", he concludes that in regard to "ALL" the documents in the case given to the FBI (which clearly INCLUDES FAIRFIELD) they were "PROBABLY PREPARED BY ONE WRITER".

AK, agreed, I definitely will take the FBI over Graysmith.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:48 am

The "probably" came from the FBI memo regarding the Dragon card, which I think we’re all in agreement as to being a real Zodiac communication. That’s the only place there’s a "probably"…every other one say "may be". Using this "probably" reasoning, then all of these letters must be real, and they’re certainly not. Once again, this letter was NOT confirmed by anyone outside of the FBI, much less within it. I don’t give a damn what Graysmith says or doesn’t say…he’s a fraud. But it wasn’t just Graysmith who dismissed these letters…it was EVERYONE who did! If they hadn’t been generally dismissed, we wouldn’t have had to wait 23 years to see them.

I understand there was no formal declaration of this, but there was also no formal declaration of them being real. "Probably" is NOT "definitely"!

We also have no idea if the memos were prepared by the same person in the FBI, so to link one memo’s message to any other memo is a little irresponsible. These documents may have been examined by different personnel.

Once again, AK, if you want to keep saying "probably" obviously included Fairfield, so it’s real, then you must believe every other document listed prior to the Dragon card is also real. That’s the logic you’re using, and it’s not very logical.

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:20 am

The "probably" came from the FBI memo regarding the Dragon card, which I think we’re all in agreement as to being a real Zodiac communication. That’s the only place there’s a "probably"…every other one say "may be". Using this "probably" reasoning, then all of these letters must be real, and they’re certainly not. Once again, this letter was NOT confirmed by anyone outside of the FBI, much less within it. I don’t give a damn what Graysmith says or doesn’t say…he’s a fraud. But it wasn’t just Graysmith who dismissed these letters…it was EVERYONE who did! If they hadn’t been generally dismissed, we wouldn’t have had to wait 23 years to see them.

I understand there was no formal declaration of this, but there was also no formal declaration of them being real. "Probably" is NOT "definitely"!

We also have no idea if the memos were prepared by the same person in the FBI, so to link one memo’s message to any other memo is a little irresponsible. These documents may have been examined by different personnel.

Once again, AK, if you want to keep saying "probably" obviously included Fairfield, so it’s real, then you must believe every other document listed prior to the Dragon card is also real. That’s the logic you’re using, and it’s not very logical.

I dont know about "probably" or "likely", but it could be the reason we waited so many years to see these letters, is that nobody ever bothered to get them and put them out there to be viewed. You say "Everyone" dismissed them. Who is everyone? And how do you know that everyone dismissed them?

The bottom line is, you are not a documents examiner, nor am I. So all we have to go on are the notes in the FBI memos. The notes are sketchy, and admittedly, not much to draw a solid conclusion from.

But you have stated your opinion, that these letters are frauds. We are stating our opinion that they may not be. On this forum, we are allowed to have opinions. And if we dont happen to agree, you wont see me sneak the last word in and then lock the thread as you will on the other forum where you are a member!

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:16 am

"We also have no idea if the memos were prepared by the same person in the FBI, so to link one memo’s message to any other memo is a little irresponsible. These documents may have been examined by different personnel."

I can only work with what I am given. The FBI docs do not reveal the name of the handwriting expert. But he clearly mentiones the Fairfield letters, notes some distortion and says they were not written as freely, but then says that ALL letters sent to the FBI at that point in time were "probably" done by one hand.

You can take it or leave it. He has the better quality version, he has the envelopes, he knows more information than we do and he is an expert handwriting examiner. What’s weird is that throughout the case the FBI was "stricter" and less willing to declare Zodiac letters real than the Cal DOJ. I can’t account for the difference here. We don’t know all the facts. If and when we get the envelope it may help a little.

IMO we also need to consider that the Fairfield letter ask for HELP, which we know the real Zodiac did a week later in the Belli letter. And there are other indicia of realness I have gone over. Still, the writng is odd, some of it seems different from classic Z writing, and it is pencil. There is a more juvenile tone here, a rushed off quality. Perhaps a teenage hoaxer? Or Zodiac was writing in a car and did rush this off? Or was Zodiac attempting to make police think he was young, lived in Fairfield and was into astrology?

Other forums may have mostly dismissed this, without much study IMO, and here opinion is split about 50/50. I do not have a firm view, but lean slightly toward them being real. We will continue to post these letters as we get them, most of them never before seen, give them to other sites and researchers, post them here and let everyone come to their own conclusions after debate and discussion.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:13 pm

Okay, I’m punching out of this conversation. I’m tired of getting the same post to an FBI memo that in no way confirms this letter as genuine when I (and others) have pointed out a pile of problems with it.

Morf, "everyone" is everyone who has had knowledge of this letter prior to you guys getting it. I’ve not seen one other opinion saying that they believe this is a legitimate letter outside of this message board. Perhaps saying "everyone" is a bit too vague, but I’ve yet to see anyone anywhere come out saying they think it’s real.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:22 pm

"but I’ve yet to see anyone anywhere come out saying they think it’s real."

Until a few weeks ago, nobody in the Zodiac research world had ever even SEEN this letter.

Robert Graysmith, Tom Voigt and and most of the crew at ZKF have ignored this letter or dismissed it as fake with little examination. So be it. I go by what the FBI analyst says and my own analysis. I think it may be real.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:30 pm

There was a research world before the internet…they were called "police". You’d think that, if there was any credibility to this (or honestly, most any of the other suspect letters) SOMEONE would have said something positive about it before Tom had it and Graysmith mentioned it. Enough people knew about the existence of the "SLA" letter even though that was debated, as well as the April ’78 letter (granted, with the accusations against Toschi, that one is very understandable).

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:26 pm

There was a research world before the internet…they were called "police". You’d think that, if there was any credibility to this (or honestly, most any of the other suspect letters) SOMEONE would have said something positive about it before Tom had it and Graysmith mentioned it. Enough people knew about the existence of the "SLA" letter even though that was debated, as well as the April ’78 letter (granted, with the accusations against Toschi, that one is very understandable).

And that very letter (SLA)was originally thought to be a fake, wasnt it? Only later was it deemed to be legit. So you think they should have tossed it in the trash after it was originally deemed a fake? Good thing they didnt since it is considered to be a legit Z letter.

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:29 pm

"but I’ve yet to see anyone anywhere come out saying they think it’s real."

Until a few weeks ago, nobody in the Zodiac research world had ever even SEEN this letter.

Robert Graysmith, Tom Voigt and and most of the crew at ZKF have ignored this letter or dismissed it as fake with little examination. So be it. I go by what the FBI analyst says and my own analysis. I think it may be real.

By "anyone" or "everyone", I take it to mean, the Fact checkers at ZKfacts.com have deemed it a fake. That settles it for me, lets take it down. If they say its fake, they must be right ……(thats sarcasm)

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:41 pm

Okay, I’m punching out of this conversation. I’m tired of getting the same post to an FBI memo that in no way confirms this letter as genuine when I (and others) have pointed out a pile of problems with it.

Morf, "everyone" is everyone who has had knowledge of this letter prior to you guys getting it. I’ve not seen one other opinion saying that they believe this is a legitimate letter outside of this message board. Perhaps saying "everyone" is a bit too vague, but I’ve yet to see anyone anywhere come out saying they think it’s real.

And again, who is "everyone" that had knowledge of it? The police? Tom V? Who are you referring to? Tom V said that he had knowledge of it years ago, and that it was once posted on his forum, and that "old timers may remember it being posted". Well I have yet to hear from one person that ever saw it on his forum. I have never seen it posted at ANY site anyplace on the net before we got it, so forgive me, but I tend to think that people didnt have the entire letter or its full contents.

You say that the FBI memo "IN NO WAY CONFIRMS THE LETTER AS GENUINE". You may be right, but the same memo you mention also doesnt rule the letter out as a fake. So if you have proof or documentation proving this letter was ruled out as a fake, please post it here. I will wait for it.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:44 pm

The poll here is split right down the middle – 4 say real, 4 say fake, 8 say not sure:

Is the Bleeding Knife letter from Z, or is it a hoax?
yes ,I have no doubt it is from Zodiac
25% [ 4 ]
No way that this is from Zodiac
25% [ 4 ]
I just cant decide, and will need more time and information
50% [ 8 ]

Total Votes : 16

I think Roland from http://www.zodiologists.com thinks it is likely real, I know Ricardo from http://www.mk-zodiac.com is interested in this letter and put it up on his website, long time and very respected researcher The Foreigner has said she thinks it is likley real and me and Morf are certainly interested in this letter and I lean toward it being real.

We also have the FBI reports.

Also, the purpose of this site is in part to explore some areas that other sites ignore, to allow speculation and new paths on research.

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:47 pm

The poll here is split right down the middle – 4 say real, 4 say fake, 8 say not sure:

Is the Bleeding Knife letter from Z, or is it a hoax?
yes ,I have no doubt it is from Zodiac
25% [ 4 ]
No way that this is from Zodiac
25% [ 4 ]
I just cant decide, and will need more time and information
50% [ 8 ]

Total Votes : 16

I think Roland from http://www.zodiologists.com thinks it is likely real, I know Ricardo from http://www.mk-zodiac.com is interested in this letter and out it up on his website, long time and very respected researcher The Foreigner has said she thinks it is likley real and me and Morf are certainly interested in this letter and I lean toward it being real.

We also have the FBI reports.

Also, the purpose of this site is in part to explore some areas that other sites ignore, to allow speculation and new paths on research.

I think Foreigner also said she thinks it is real. As far as I know, none of us are questioned document examiners, so can any of us say it’s is legit or not? I need to see more before I say its real. But at the same time, if someone has proof its fake, by all means, show it here!

Zamantha, Subject: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:44 pm

This is one of those subject matters that seems to bring out emotion. Some feel it is real, some feel it is fake. We may never know for sure, SO I think we all give each other permission to have our thoughts, and also permission to agree to disagree. geeze LE couldn’t even decide on some of these things, so how are any of us…forum members…

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:09 am

With respect to Mr B, having an opinion against this being considered a bona fide Z letter is fine – it’s all democratic and easy-going here. And no-one’s ramming it down anyone’s throat that this STATE letter is real, or claiming expertise in validating it as so. These little disputes do tend to hijack threads somewhat though.

The value in discussing the letter AS IF it were a true Z correspondence mainly lies in examining the CONTENT – and how that might help us in our Z investigations. If it doesn’t help then we move on, but at least we’ll have given it some consideration.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:16 am

Theforeigner wrote:

I have now sent the new letter and the Lake Berryess door to my x-husband and have him take a look at it.
He knows the Zodiac case pretty well, especially the letters/handwriting side of the case due to that he has been my consulter in handwriting matters through the last 4 years,

His educations are typographer, graphic designer and he has a pennmaship. He has worked with this stuf for over 30 years and he is VERY good.
Of course he is not a documnet expert, but it´s pretty close IMO.

I´ll let you know what he says about it.

FWIW for you other forum members;
My x-husband has now used som time to studie the "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE/ THE BLEEDING KNIFE" letter, and his opinion is that the "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE/ THE BLEEDING KNIFE" letter indeed was written by the Zodiac killer.
He says that he has no doubt whatsoever that it was created by the Zodiac killer.

I personaly belive that my x-husbands view and opinion is both professional and unbiased.

That is very interesting, imo. We can argue back and forth about the letters being authentic until AK
pastes the FBI’s opinion for the 100th time on this thread. 8)
But opinions like the one from TF’s ex sways me more than anything I have read on this letter.
Good stuff and ty.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Mon Sep 27, 2010 7:48 am

Caresut, with all due respect, "TF’s Ex", whoever this person is, has provided us with:

a) No information saying what his/her credentials are regarding the QD examination; and

b) absolutely no information as to why he/she thinks the letters are genuine.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:46 am

My opinion of this being a (bad) fake still stands.

The tone of it and using Zodiac-isms would be a given for someone faking it.

But, the best argument was given by Entropy–(I think).

The letters PROVEN to be from Zodiac and what they state before and after just don’t jibe with this letter. Period.

But for those who think it’s real…have at it. Maybe you can figure out if he killed all those folks or took out any cops.

Zamantha, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:52 am

Caresut, with all due respect, "TF’s Ex", whoever this person is, has provided us with:

a) No information saying what his/her credentials are regarding the QD examination; and

b) absolutely no information as to why he/she thinks the letters are genuine.

Hi Zab, I think the same question goes for the nay sayers. what reasons are you or others saying it’s not genuine. Really look at it, and read the verbiage… think about the dates, time periods. Also… I always think about my writing. IF I’m awake an alert my writing looks pretty good. If I’m multi tasking (which is alot) or my mind is on something else, it looks bad….and doesn’t even look like my writing. If I had killing or something else on my mind, from being sick or deranged, or anything possible with the Z…. well my writing would look scrambled…not the same… jes saying. I don’t think anyone cares IF the letters are real or fake as far as winning this argument I know I do NOT have to win. But I DO hope when we all get a chance to look n ponder something new that could be related to the case, that we all really do that. That we all really look, ponder … like say we are CSI or something ( hey, don’t laugh But you have to really look at it as a possible……and then fine turn it …and see if it is or isn’t. That is what I would like to hear from everyone .

tahoe27, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:14 pm

…what reasons are you or others saying it’s not genuine. Really look at it, and read the verbiage… think about the dates, time periods. Also… I always think about my writing. IF I’m awake an alert my writing looks pretty good. If I’m multi tasking (which is alot) or my mind is on something else, it looks bad….and doesn’t even look like my writing.

I know this was directed at Zab, but I’m chiming in.

Tone and verbiage: If one was to fake a letter, they better be able to pull that off somewhat, or what would be the point?

Handwriting: When handwriting doesn’t quite match a common response becomes "he probably wrote differently at times".. If that is the case why not just consider all the copy-cats real? Ya know?

Really looking at it and reading it and studying the dates and time periods is truly what makes me say, no way. I think we can all agree at first glance this looks NOTHING like Zodiac’s other letters. Of course some things would match–they would HAVE to if you are trying to mimic someone. But even the stuff that somewhat matches…looks "tried"…and badly so.

Unfortunately, I think some want this to be from Zodiac so we go looking for ways to make it so. Read his real letters, before and after.

Zamantha, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:23 pm

Perfect Tahoe, that’s what I’m saying. Let’s hear the reasons behind the Pro’s n the Con’s…. step it up an really ponder n post your reasoning. Kudos, good work…. I for one LOVE hearing a good Debate, no matter what side of the fence I’m on. I’ve also changed my mind on things….when I learn or hear more, that’s what these forums are all about, learning from each other. )

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:39 pm

Good points!

My reason for leaning towards it being real is the fact that 38 intended victims were indicated. Years later, Z mentioned 37 (only one off). Z couldnt know about this unreleased letter. So was it just a coincidence? He could have said 50, or 60, or 80, but he said 37.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:35 pm

Caresut, with all due respect, "TF’s Ex", whoever this person is, has provided us with:

a) No information saying what his/her credentials are regarding the QD examination; and

b) absolutely no information as to why he/she thinks the letters are genuine.

TF has told us his experience with handwriting. This is a message board, not a grand jury.
TF went to the trouble of having him look at it and I found his remarks interesting as he
is so convinced it is genuine.
I still think the letter is fake as LE ruled it out. But TF’s post did make me take another look.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:32 pm

I am relatively new here, so I have absolutely no knowledge of his/her handwriting knowledge….Also, I don’t even know for sure what gender TF is, actually…and while that does not matter, this shows you that I do not know who his/her "ex" is….

There is no post that I have seen here explaining anything about who he is, so a statement saing that Mr./Ms. X thinks the letters are genuine has no "meat" on it…

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:07 pm

There is no post that I have seen here explaining anything about who he is, so a statement saing that Mr./Ms. X thinks the letters are genuine has no "meat" on it…

I quoted TF’s statement about him above in the post you responded to this morning.

Theforeigner wrote:

I have now sent the new letter and the Lake Berryess door to my x-husband and have him take a look at it.
He knows the Zodiac case pretty well, especially the letters/handwriting side of the case due to that he has been my consulter in handwriting matters through the last 4 years,

His educations are typographer, graphic designer and he has a pennmaship. He has worked with this stuf for over 30 years and he is VERY good.
Of course he is not a documnet expert, but it´s pretty close IMO.

I´ll let you know what he says about it.

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:18 pm

Caresut, with all due respect, "TF’s Ex", whoever this person is, has provided us with:

a) No information saying what his/her credentials are regarding the QD examination; and

b) absolutely no information as to why he/she thinks the letters are genuine.

TF has told us his experience with handwriting. This is a message board, not a grand jury.
TF went to the trouble of having him look at it and I found his remarks interesting as he
is so convinced it is genuine.
I still think the letter is fake as LE ruled it out. But TF’s post did make me take another look.

Has LE ruled it out? There are 3 possible solutions to letters received in the Z case:

*Definitely from Z

*Definitely NOT from Z

*Undetermined

Doesnt this letter fit into the undetermined category? I have yet to see a memo that rules it out as fake, or one that confirms it as a legit Z letter.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Mon Sep 27, 2010 7:14 pm

I still think the letter is fake as LE ruled it out. But TF’s post did make me take another look.

Has LE ruled it out? There are 3 possible solutions to letters received in the Z case:

*Definitely from Z

*Definitely NOT from Z

*Undetermined

Doesnt this letter fit into the undetermined category? I have yet to see a memo that rules it out as fake, or one that confirms it as a legit Z letter.

No, there is no memo that rules it out as fake shown anywhere. My opinion is that LE ruled it out.
I did not word it very well before.

, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:11 am

There is no post that I have seen here explaining anything about who he is, so a statement saing that Mr./Ms. X thinks the letters are genuine has no "meat" on it…

I quoted TF’s statement about him above in the post you responded to this morning.

Theforeigner wrote:

I have now sent the new letter and the Lake Berryess door to my x-husband and have him take a look at it.
He knows the Zodiac case pretty well, especially the letters/handwriting side of the case due to that he has been my consulter in handwriting matters through the last 4 years,

His educations are typographer, graphic designer and he has a pennmaship. He has worked with this stuf for over 30 years and he is VERY good.
Of course he is not a documnet expert, but it´s pretty close IMO.

I´ll let you know what he says about it.

Nope, that material was not up when I was on….sorry….nice to have his opinion…

Morf; sometimes you have to read "in between the lines"….I think we have a subtle clue here in that LE put this letter with the other letters that were clearly not written by Z…

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:05 am

Say what you want, I disagree. There were ones that were clearly considered forgeries. This one was not noted as clearly a forgery. Stick it in the "maybe" file, IMO.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:29 am

I have posted them before, so unless there is someone who hasn’t seen them and wants to, I won’t post them again. But the docs show the FBI handwriting expert – while noting distortion and that they were not written as "freely" – said the Fairfield letters had characteristics matching previous letters and that they "may have" been prepared by the Zodiac. Then later an analyst (same or different, we don’t know) mentioned the Fairfield letters and while noting the issues declares that ALL letters sent to the FBI, INCLUDING FAIRFIELD, were PROBABLY prepared by one person.

Why do people still ignore that?

It also appears Graysmith says they were a hoax, and they are NOT on the SFPD list of confirmed Zodiac letters. And I think the SFPD at that time relied on Morrill at Cal DOJ. But we haven’t seen the Morrill report on these, if it exists.

One factor may have been that in 1969 Zodiac letters were all pretty similar. Then here was one that was different. Later, with Belli, Count Marco, SLA and others, we would see Zodiac use different styles.

There are several fakes in the FBI file, and they say something like "While it could not be proven completely that this was not from the author of the previous letters, there was no strong reason to think so and several factors that did not match."

tahoe27, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:17 pm

…the docs show the FBI handwriting expert – while noting distortion and that they were not written as "freely" – said the Fairfield letters had characteristics matching previous letters and that they "may have" been prepared by the Zodiac. Then later an analyst (same or different, we don’t know) mentioned the Fairfield letters and while noting the issues declares that ALL letters sent to the FBI, INCLUDING FAIRFIELD, were PROBABLY prepared by one person.

Why do people still ignore that?

ALL the letters?? Ugh.

One analyst saying "probably" doesn’t cut it for me AK. I think if you factor in what Zodiac stated before and after, you have the answer–this was not a Zodiac communique.

If you look at just characteristics, yes there are similiarities as stated originally by the FBI. As well there should be…if someone pretending to be Zodiac.

One guy later saying ALL the letters were PROBABLY prepared by one person…now that obviously couldn’t be the case. So that alone makes me dismiss what this (later) analyst stated.

I am taking into account a lot more than writing style and I have to wonder if this guy did the same.

One factor may have been that in 1969 Zodiac letters were all pretty similar. Then here was one that was different. Later, with Belli, Count Marco, SLA and others, we would see Zodiac use different styles.

I think Zodiac wrote like he did in the Belli letter at the beginning of a couple of his other letters. I believe the Dragon card and the Button letter start off very Belli letter like.

The Count Marco letter and the SLA letter (I think the SLA letter was SLA and it was written right around the abduction of Patti Hearst), I too think are very questionable. Just my own take on things…

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:41 pm

"ALL" meaning all to that point in time, April 28, 1970.

The FBI analyst had better quality versions, the envelopes and more information than we do. And he is a trained expert, we are not. So, yes, I do give some credence to what he says.

And Morrill is not infalliable. He thought the April 78 letter was real, even after other experts said it was fake. And Morrill says Zodiac wrote the SLA and Red Phantom letters, while it seems the FBI did NOT endorse those as Zodiac. But Morrill does accept Riverside as Z, which I think is correct, and he was regarded as one of the best, and probably spent a lot more time studying Z writing than the FBI analyst did. And Morrill didn’t hesitate to say that Allen did not write the Z letters, despite detectives being hot on Allen.

Also, the Fairfield letter of 12/7/69 asks for "Help", just like Zodiac would in the Belli letter. The Fairfield letters of 12/7 and 12/16 threaten police, as Zodiac would in the April 20 "My Name" letter. And the Fairfield letter of 12/16 threatens to kill 38 people – and in January 1974 Zodiac would claim 37 dead, and that was before the October 12, 1974 murder of Arlis Perry. And finally, the Fairfield letter of 12/16 threatens to kill government employess and to kill more in Sacramento than anywhere else. In 1970, two possible Zodiac victims were Sacramento residents – hospital nurse Judith Hakari and court reporter Nancy Bennallack.

And yet, while I consider all of that very important and indicia of realness, now that I am actually holding these letters in my hand, something seems "off" about them. They don’t have the command or tone, the thought or planning, of previous or future Zodiac letters IMO. And I can’t determine if that means they are probable fakes OR if Zodiac was creating a different persona.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:16 pm

From the new FBI files recovered by Morf, these are the ENVELOPES that held the Fairfield "Bleeding Knife…State is in trouble" and "+ he will be a cop" letters.

I have to kinda change my view, I had leaned slightly to somewhat in favor of these perhaps being real Zodiac letters, with him affecting a different style and tone, but still perhaps being from Zodiac, because parts of them rang true to me and fit with other things.

But these envelopes have ZIP CODES, something no real Z letter has, and the overall feel does not look correct to me. I now have to lean towards these letters probably being fake.

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:26 pm

Good points AK. Also, the mailing was NOT double stamped like Z was fond of,but rather it mentions ‘postage due’

Daniel Gillotti, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:27 pm

Thanks for posting this…I can’t focus because of what happened 20 minutes from my house in Newtown Ct…I’ll will try and post later tonight how important this letter is

Daniel…

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:59 pm

Dan very sorry to hear you live near Newtown, where this horrible tragic shooting has happened. They are now saying 20 children dead, 6 adults, the shooter and a brother at home. 28 dead.

I hope everyone you know is ok.

I know the thoughts and prayers of the entire country will be with Newtown.

On the matter of this letter, I can only issue a caution. If you look carefully at all the evidence, in particular the envelopes, IMO it is unlikely this is a real Zodiac letter. So I would be careful linking it to other aspects of the case. It may fit with some other clues you have, or other theories, but if this is a hoax, as it seems, then it is just a coincidence. Of course you may have another take on it, and may have reasons to think it is real. I used to think this could be real, but the new evidence of the envelopes caused me to change my view.

morf13, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:26 pm

Finally, here it is, a suspected letter from Zodiac…"THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE"

The FBI did not give me any additional info about this letter, no facts, no dates, nothing.

Starting to think that this may be a real z letter. Why? Because it is from December,69. This one below is confirmed to be from Z,and is only from a few weeks earlier(bus bomb letter).

So,if the image of the bus bomb letter wasnt published,how would a copycat draw such a similar symbol a few weeks later??? The little x’s or whatever, hovering around the crosshair symbol,very similar in my opinion. Anyone else think so?

Quicktrader, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:25 am

Z obviously had a basement.

QT

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:45 pm

Morf that is an interesting similarity but I am still troubled by the envelopes with zip codes and under postage stamped.

This letter claims that he will kill 38 victims total will be killed before zodiac stops. This letter was mailed in 1969. If we assume for a second that it is from a forger, then there is no way Zodiac would ever know that the forger gives 38 victims as a final count.

Then, years later, in 1974, the last body count Zodiac ever gives us is 37. That seems awfully coincidental, which is why I tend to think, this letter may be real. Any thoughts on this?

The first thing that I thought is that if this letter says there will be a total of 38 victims and Zodiac wrote 37 victims on his last confirmed letter then would he be the last victim and commit suicide?

The first thing that I thought is that if this letter says there will be a total of 38 victims and Zodiac wrote 37 victims on his last confirmed letter then would he be the last victim and commit suicide?

No idea. I would be curious to see about any suicides in 1974-75, he may have saved himself for last.

morf–can you add the date of this letter at the top of your first post?

morf–can you add the date of this letter at the top of your first post?

Tahoe, I think it was 12/16/69, this FBI file is from 12/21/69, QC37. So, it was before that date. The memo also mentions that QC34 & QC35, are not written as freely as some of these other letters,so may be a sign of distortion. Not sure what 34 & 35 were,or at least,I cant remember

The FBI doc says it was postmarked Dec. 16, 1969. I will add the date to the title of the thread.

The FBI doc says it was postmarked Dec. 16, 1969. I will add the date to the title of the thread.

Thanks, I think(cant remember)that it was received along with a Sacramento Bee flyer, or form/envelope of some sort.

I think it was the Dec 10 Cancer page that was sent in the preaddressed envelope.