It’s not just the similarities either, well it is but … the lowercase n, the car door is the only place I’ve seen Zodiac use that n.

Ding, ding, ding! lol ….just messing with ya.

Those two k’s really look nothing alike! The car door is clearly a three stroke…the bleeding knife was formed off of the h. And how about the TOP of that "f"?

If he was going by memory, why the sharp "e" on knife?

I’ve said it before….if you are going to try and copy something, you are bound to get lucky with some traits, but when more doesn’t match than does? Nah.

I think they do (the K’s) but I’m talking about approximation. I see what you are saying about the K, the way it appears to have been created from an h. My concern is that for one, that the quality of that bleeding knife letter looks to me like it’s an x-gen copy, ie many. Therefore what we see as shapes and outlines in the actual fill might not even be there in the original. Also, even if it was an h it still ended up as a K and an approximation of the car door one. IF it was just the K on it’s own I would say it wasn’t anything. Just a K that some might think is similar and some might not.

If from memory why the sharp e? Well, that was my thinking for the thing as a whole. ie If it was meant to be similar to the car door then why not closer and from memory was a guess as to the reason. Another thought has occurred to me though. The author did have an image to work from but decided not to copy it exactly because if it were proved to be a hoax without doubt then it would have been a narrow pool of suspects if they had copied the car door precisely.

The relationship between the f and the e is quite intriguing, Even on the car door I always found it a little strange, shape and form that they both share and that rather unique tail on the e. The bleeding knife letter has the same relationships between it’s f and e (despite the different style) and also has that elongated tail at the same angle.

Again I’m not sure I’ve seen Zodiac treat an e like that anywhere else and if he has then it wasn’t the norm. For someone to then produce the same word with the e treated in that way is curious to say the least.

It bothers me. I think there’s more to this but I don’t know what. Given the other elements to this, the state letter, the envelope, even the bleeding knife page, I don’t feel this is Zodiac but given (AFAWK) the non disclosure of end of the car door message and what I now see as similarities in shape and form in the bleeding knife, ‘knife’ I’m intrigued. I mean we know they were hoax letters, these are most probably some of them but there’s possible connections here to the pines card so I think it’s important to explore every little detail. Not only because it might help us come to a conclusion regarding the authenticity of those more accepted but still doubted missives. It would bring some clarity, perhaps sadly ironically, to the case of Donna Lass.

I just get the feeling that there’s something there for us to get our heads around. If the knife on the door had been public I wouldn’t have thought much about it, a poor attempt but it’s that it wasn’t and given that, just the ‘e’ alone is enough to set alarm bells ringing for me.

That’s alarm bells Rockette Marciano not the other kind Now, which corner’s mine again?

I hear you Trav…and you know when I bring this up it is with nothing but good intentions and not to be argumentative, by any means.

I just think obvious distinctions are being dismissed, and small similarities are being brought to the forefront here…strong differences in favor of slants, which might be one of the easiest things to mimic.

That "K" is clearly different, as is the "f". If you want to assume it’s a multi-copy…that is certainly your choice!

At first glance, sure it is similar, but ultimately you have three of the most distinctive letters…the K, F, and E being quite different. That leaves us with "n" and "i". 95% of the population probably make a lower case n and i in that manner.

As I mentioned, I do agree with the Bleeding Knife letter being VERY similar to the Pines card…whether or not it had anything to do with Donna Lass.

–Sorry to get of track from the "State is in Trouble", but they do sort of go hand-in-hand.

I know T and I was thinking too about the title of the thread and wondering lol. They do go hand in hand now more than I ever realized. That’s something we’ve settled with our questions at least.

I had one of those, wish I hadn’t started this moments but it’s over now. I was re-organizing my desk/coffee table so I could facilitate my wacom tablet in a comfortable working position and hadn’t used it for while so thought I’d take it for spin. Was looking at the images we have for these letters and associated envelopes and thought I’d "tidy" them.

That’s the bit I wish I hadn’t started but it’s over now and the cramps have mostly gone lol. Had to paint out every speck by hand. Glad I did though because there’s something I hadn’t picked up on and it’s not surprising really given how much noise there was on some of these. Whoever authored these doesn’t use dots above lower case letters. Now, having said if anyone feels that some of those marks above some letters are dots then please say. I wasn’t sure at first but looking over the cleaner ones there are no dots and the ‘marks’ that just happened to fall in the right place to be dots were consistent with other ‘marks’ that weren’t dots so I’m pretty confident that no dots is the case. That’s very un-Zodiac like.

At this point it occurs to me that the word Zodiac on the "bleeding knife" page doesn’t have a dot either. There is a mark off the the right and above on the original but I think it’s another copier mark and not a dot and it’s a bit far away. The word ‘knife’ definitely has no dot and the same for ‘bleeding’. This might be important because I feel that the word ‘zodiac’ on the front of the Pines card is very, very similar to the one on the bleeding knife page and I have posted that comparison on the bleeding knife thread. Here it is below. and here’s the thread. viewtopic.php?f=71&t=420&p=14035&hilit=bleeding+knife#p14035

Here are the cleaned up version of the letters and envelopes. I have also fixed the proportions on the envelopes. roughly but I think it’s pretty close. I just altered them so that the post marks were circular and allowed the rest of the envelope to follow.

So…. I don’t think anyone really believes these are from Zodiac but here’s my problem now. For a while I was starting to wonder if they were from the same person who may have created the pines card due to the similarities I’ve noted above but the Pines card has dots above the i’s. The absence of dots in these communications is feeling very much like a habit so It’s my feeling that whoever created these isn’t the same person. Maybe lol.

This is getting more complicated and weird.

These letters were sent in 1969, The Pines card was sent in 1971. So, if these aren’t the same person then whoever sent the Pines card, if we assuming the similarities are similarities, copied elements at least of the ‘this state’ letter. Which wasn’t made public so who had that access? If it is the same person, then why the addition of dots all of a sudden? and not to mention the dedication, of sorts to send one set of hoaxes in 69 then another in flurry in 70 and 71.

I’m confused, Not to mention taken aback I missed the fact this letter predates the Pines, crack proof and the Halloween card.

Please don’t let Tom Horan read your findings, he will be trying to see who within the NAPA PD authored these. Thanks for doing all the work here Trav. I may be in the minority here for sure in thinking this letter could still be Z,I simply can not get over the body count this author gives us in 1969,and how close it is to Zodiac’s final count 5 years later,within 1. Of course, it could be a coincidence. And no, I in no way think there is any zodiac investigator involved in writing or forging z letters

Yeah I know morf. It is prime conspiracy stuff … unless. And it’s the unless I’m moving towards which is something I suspected but I’m still torn. It’s a bit of a puzzle and it’s one I’m not sure I can get my head around, for my own satisfaction, just yet.

My thoughts above were thinking through the hypothesis that the pines and crackproof and HC might be forgeries and might be by the same person. One that I’m not averse to and I think it was well discovered, the similarities. Also possibly factoring in these letters. That’s where it’s starting to get too complicated in regards possible similarities and the timings.

I really don’t feel that this is zodiac but that just based on looking at it. The other aspects, the possible similarities, the times, the tally. Well what I didn’t add above is that I’m starting to wonder could this be Zodiac. And looks can be deceiving.

I know some people don’t put much stock in it but the Pines card WAS authenticated but the ‘zodiac’ on that card is very similar to the one on the ‘state’ letter. If the Pines card is Zodiac then he would have been copying a forgery, which I feel is an unlikely thing for him to do, never mind that it wasn’t made public. I happen to think that the Pines card is Zodiac and if that is the case then the ‘state’ letter would, I think, have to be Zodiac. It pre-dates the Pines card, has a very similar rendering of the word ‘Zodiac’ and it wasn’t made public. TBH it’s the simpler explanation, even though it’s not simple enough yet.

What is it they say about coincidences and patterns?

I know some people don’t put much stock in it but the Pines card WAS authenticated but the ‘zodiac’ on that card is very similar to the one on the ‘state’ letter.

I don’t think the Pines card was authenticated in the typical sense.

Questions…since we are thinking along the same lines with this letter/Bleeding Knife/Pines.

–Why is it that these letters in question are completely different in tone, writing and postage, etc? Postage due? No "Rush to Editor"?
–What are your thoughts on the "count" on the Pines card obviously being wrong?
–Why on the Pines card did "Zodiac" paste "victims" correctly when in several other missives spelled it "victoms"…always "victoms".

Was Zodiac pretending to be a hoaxer pretending to be himself? Chances are more likely they are very different because very different people wrote them. Not that he was on drugs, a different personality, etc…that is when we stretch the imagination.

I think when this person FINALLY got published ("Crackproof") in Paul Avery’s article, from that point on, he stuck with Paul. Paul was his new BF.

Tahoe, Do you agree that this letter doesnt look much like Z at all? I certainly think it doesn’t, yet, the FBI states that the Author of the Zodiac letters should NOT be ruled out as the Author of this letter.

And again, the FBI memo states that although some questioned documents QC34&35 ‘show signs of distortion,and were not written as freely’, the Knife letter & State letter are not listed as showing distortion.

Was Zodiac pretending to be a hoaxer pretending to be himself?

That is the quandry I face because it’s not beyond possibility. I really do believe he wrote the citizen letter and the Marco letter and the desk. They were basically hoaxes except the desk was probably unintentional, the other two are very much, well not hoaxes I guess but certainly forgeries. He pretends to be a citizen and then a red phantom. Now his underlying signature was spotted, and rightly so IMO. So despite the two different styles employed he didn’t manage to hide or disguise it being him. I don’t know if he was trying to or rather how hard he was trying because they came so close on the heels of the Exorcist letter that I have to wonder if he wanted them found. I don’t know.

This is one of those things that I’m probably gonna change my mind about every five minutes. I don’t know if it’s because I’ve been around long enough now (still a noob though lol) that my head is trying to develop a theory without consulting me but what you are quoted as asking at the beginning of this post has been floating around in my head for a while and it’s because of things I’ve seen, or at least think I see in the handwriting. It all has me asking "What else did he do" regarding handwriting. And yes, I’ve wondered did he pretend to be a hoaxer. It’s kinda like entering yourself in a look-a-like competition for the best looking you. I can’t profess to know or even have an inkling about Zodiac’s personality but given what we assume about his nature and his ego, I imagine he would have thought that fun and clever. It actually is quite clever because it provides a bridge between real letters and real hoaxes and as such it muddies the waters because suddenly the hoaxes might not have as far to reach to be like the actual letters by slipping disguised writing laced with actual Zodiac traits into the mix.

I just don’t see anything strong enough visually to attribute these state and bleeding knife letter to Zodiac. Now, if I we’re to insist on this theory I could suggest that he was capable of writing in completely disguised hand and employed it sparingly for this very purpose. In a way that makes sense because if they did betray it was Zodiac they wouldn’t work for the purpose suggested.

To answer your other questions see the above quote lol. No, that’s just glossing over and they are very good questions. Good enough to make me change my mind again. But not completely but that’s for my own reasons and I won’t know myself until I have done more work on the ‘big one’. That’s one of it’s purposes is to look at these issues and see what can be found to help, or maybe help us decide.

Someone suggested to me a while back, apologies I can’t rem who, that I should put together a ‘visual’ showing all of the disputed letters together in the same way I had done with the real letters (I know, also possibly containing hoaxes ….. or fake hoaxes??? Aaaaarrrggghhh must make up mind). I think that will have to happen because we are seeing a thread of similarities running through more and more of these and it would be good to see them beside each other.

To address your other questions I don’t know yet. I’m a guy, I can’t concentrate on more than one thing at a time, usually with a nap in between. I will have a think about them in time and try and get my head around them.

I’m not gonna make up my mind yet though because I’m enjoying the discourse and the threshing out of these ‘issues’. It’s good seeing the different and compelling arguments. That’s the proper way to come to an opinion. IM…..Opinion to be decided on?

Just to add, the Atlanta letter morf has just posted complicates things for me as well on a handwriting level. You see I think I’ve identified the elements in it that made the FBI cautious in there assessment and recommendations. Another reason to get them all together, even the ’78 letter.

I am glad we can all have a civil debate about these letters. Great team effort, and good theories and ideas.

Does anybody have the follow up page to this? I want to see what details the FBI goes into about the State & knife letter

Something tells me that Doranchak has the next page I am looking for….Dave are you around?

Good points!

How do we know the Pines Card victim total is wrong?

Trav I think you are on the right path with the idea of looking at all the possible hoax/unconfirmed letters.

Remember there were two handwritten letters in 1978 (April and May, the July was typed), one in 1986 and one in 1987.

viewtopic.php?f=78&t=1096

I think one person – Zodiac, Zodiac as a hoaxer, or a fake Zodiac hoaxer – did most or all of these. A lot of them used stamps from the same set. And the handwriting on the May 78 letter looks like the 1981 Atlanta letter.

viewtopic.php?f=78&t=61

I am glad we can all have a civil debate about these letters. Great team effort, and good theories and ideas.

Does anybody have the follow up page to this? I want to see what details the FBI goes into about the State & knife letter

Something tells me that Doranchak has the next page I am looking for….Dave are you around?

I had found those Morf, and Tahoe posted them for me.

AK WILKS from 2010:

I found an FBI file were the analyst says that the Belli letter has matches to the 12/7 and 12/16 Fairfield letters, that compared to pre-December Z letters these three have distortion and were not written as freely, but that they have similar characteristics to other Zodiac letters, and that ‘one person may have prepared ALL the threatening letters in this matter.‘

The FBI analyst gives the same level of qualified endorsement to the Fairfield letters that he gives to the Belli letter.

Look at pages 64, 65 and 70 here:

PG 64:

PG 65:

PG 70:

AK WILKS from 2010:

Q34 – Q38 are the 12/7/69 and 12/16/69 Fairfield letters and envelopes.

Q43 and Q44 are the Belli letter and envelope of 12/20/69.

The examiner notes that the Fairfield letters AND the Belli letter contain some "distortion" and appear to have been "not written as freely" as prior letters.

But then the examiner notes (on page 65) that the Fairfield letters have characteristics which indicate they "may have been prepared" by the same person who wrote the earlier confirmed Zodiac letters.

And then (on page 70) the examiner notes that the Belli letter and envelope has characteristics indicating that "ALL" of the letters may have been prepared by the same person.

So, far from a dismissal of the Fairfield letters as a hoax, the FBI notes that they have elements in common with the Belli letter, and that ALL have characteristics matching previous confirmed Zodiac letters.

Clearly there is something different about the writing in the Fairfield letters than most other Z communication of that time. As the FBI puts it, they see "distortion" and say they were not "written as freely". But they also note matching characteristics and say the Fairfield letters "may have" been prepared by the Zodiac, which is exactly the same langauge the FBI analyst used in regard to the Riverside writing – a lukewarm endorsement. Graysmith wrote these off as copycats.

Was Zodiac in a difficult position when he wrote these letters? Was he traveling in a car, writing on his knee, as opposed to sitting at a desk? Was he intentionally altering his style, as he had done and would do again? Or are these just the work of a very busy and perhaps insane hoaxer?

Why did he pick Fairfield? What is significant about that place? Just random? A train was derailed in Fairfield.

What leans me towards perhaps being real is something I don’t see the critics here or on other boards addressing. If the Fairfield letter is fake, why does the cry for help match what came 13 days later in a confirmed Zodiac letter, the Belli letter, which also asked for help? Just coincidence? Lucky guess? How would a hoaxer know the real Zodiac would pick up on the Dunbar fake?

Also at the time of the Fairfield letters Zodiac had not made a point of threatening police, other than a joke that if cops believed his bus plan they deserved to have "holes in their heads". Both Fairfield letters threaten police – and in the 4/20/70 confirmed Zodiac letter, Z says "there is more glory in killing a cop than a (kid)". And Zodiac later hinted he killed Officer Radetich. Once again, the hoaxer made a lucky guess in predicting Zodiac would explicitly threaten police?

Also, the letter threatens to kill 9 people in Sacramento, and threatens lives of government employees. Two of the next probable Zodiac victims, Hakari and Bennallack, were Sacramento residents, and Bennallack a government employee, a court reporter. So, for a third time, the hoaxer got lucky?

These may well be fake, but I think these issues are serious signs pointing that they could be real, and I have yet to see most of the critics, here or on other boards, address them.

If the Fairfield/Sacramento letters are real, was Z trying to create a new (false) persona? To make police think he was a Fairfield or Sacramento resident, into astrology, obsessed with killing cops, mentally ill and wanting help (that theme of which was continued in the Belli letter)?

AK WILKS from 2014: As you can see, in 2010 I was leaning towards the Fairfield letters being likely real, but the envelopes, with single postage and zip codes, tipped me into the likely fake group.

Thanks Ak….so…huh, what?

They are all over the place with their findings. Maybe they mean that the same author could have prepared all of the letters, but tried to alter or hide their writing??

Thanks Ak….so…huh, what?

They are all over the place with their findings. Maybe they mean that the same author could have prepared all of the letters, but tried to alter or hide their writing??

Well the FBI is very CYA. They use cautious langauge.

They say the Fairfield letters AND the Belli letter "contain distorion" and "were not written as freely" as other letters. Meaning, I think, that they note differences, which could have been by a hoaxer trying to copy, OR the real Zodiac was in a different situation – perhaps not writing in as comfortable an area or on as comfortable a surface, or his mind or hand were affected by something, or he was trying to alter his writing.

Yet the FBI conclude that the Fairfield and Belli letters "MAY" have been written by the author of the previous letters i.e., Zodiac.

…Yet the FBI conclude that the Fairfield and Belli letters "MAY" have been written by the author of the previous letters i.e., Zodiac.

Too bad Zodiac didn’t put in a piece of shirt like he did with the Belli letter.

"May" doesn’t do a lot for me…know matter who says it. Could have, but maybe not.