Yes, I wasn’t trying to make him into some hardened criminal, just saying he likely hung around with some folks that might have been involved in drugs or other things. I mean, you can become associated with people like that just through people you know. I bring this up because many think Darlene might have been targeted for what she knew, when it might have been Mike who was targeted.
I don’t think Darlene was targeted for knowing anything, I think she was targeted for turning down a dangerous individual who was romantically interested in her.
If you consider the bates case a true zodiac then you would assume there would be similar motive.
BUT ONLY ONE THING WAS ON MY MIND. MAKING HER PAY FOR THE
BRUSH OFFS THAT SHE HAD GIVEN ME DURING THE YEARS PRIOR
-Cheri jo bates letter ;zodiac(?)
I’m guessing that this was a consistent motive for zodiac, with the exception of the paul stine homicide.
I have not seen any evidence that drugs played a role in what happened at blue rock springs, or that the individuals targeted were involved in drugs.
Well, the phone calls To Darlene’s family which were just heavy breathing turned out To be a family member looking for cannabis, but this was the 1960s, and most people used a little cannabis and had a beer from time to time. So I don’t see this as evidence that drug or drug deals had anything to do with this case.
…and for other reasons which I will not discuss here I still feel Darlene was the intended target.
Agreed, the guy has been through a lot and no doubt suffers mentally, he carries a lot of guilt. I have trouble with the "being chased" story as it’s hard to believe if someone had been tailing them menacingly they would have driven out to an isolated spot and parked. There might be some truth there but I’m not sure it’s how Mike portrays it.
I believe that they were followed, I also think Mike is being honest when he says when he questioned Darlene about who was following them she told him "it’s nothing", and "he is just jealous" and that she mentions "Richard"…
…I think Mike is honest on these points.
As far as going to blue rock springs while they thought they were being followed:
Blue rock springs was Darlene’s favorite spot and Some event was coming To pass that would have prevented Darlene and Mike from seeing each other for quite some time, so it was decided that they would find a secluded area To "do what lovers do" before they were unable To see one another. This is why they went to blue rock springs.
I’ve always had the suspicion they went to BRS to meet someone to buy drugs. It’s possible when the car thought to be Zodiac first pulled in and then left, Darlene thought it was the person they were suppose to meet for the drugs which is why she called him "Richard" or whoever then said "nevermind", if any of that is true. I think it’s possible that because they were there to buy drugs, they just simply were in the wrong place at the wrong time. It had nothing to do with them buying drugs or anyone chasing them, they unwittingly entered Zodiac’s hunting ground.
They went to blue rock springs to make love, or to have private time. For one reason or another Mike and Darlene would be unable to see one another for quite some time, so as a means of spending quality time before being unable to see one another they decided to go to blue rock springs. Blue rock springs was one of Darlene’s favorite spots.
This is exactly what Mike said:
around 24m:45s into the film we have Mike speaking about what Darlene had told him, he says:
"She told me, uhm, a friend of hers and not to worry about it, he is just jealous, that’s all she said about him, he is just jealous, she never mentions his name…she said something about RICHARD, something about his name was RICHARD, [mumbling]…named RICHARD, and I think that was his name, she referred to him as RICHARD, [places arms behind his head] the zodiac killer, the guy… she said he had a very mean temper and that if he ever found out he would kill her, he would kill her, this she mentioned those were her words, he would kill me if he ever I knew I was talking to you about that…she told me that. [Arms still behind head]-transcribed from "this is the zodiac speaking" by Topsy Kret / Mr. E. Mann
So I don’t think Mike and Darlene were at blue rock springs to buy drugs, Mike and Darlene were there to spend "quality time" before they were unable to see one another.
I believe that they were followed, I feel Darlene was the intended target, and that her murder on that specific date was intentional. But this is just what I think.
…I still have not been able to fully discount Allen.
I guess Cheney did have his DNA collected, or at least this is what I was told. Cheney really made me suspicious, but if the evidence cleared him….
I don’t think Darlene was targeted for knowing anything, I think she was targeted for turning down a dangerous individual who was romantically interested in her.
Yeah, that I would agree with.
I’m guessing that this was a consistent motive for zodiac, with the exception of the paul stine homicide.
Possibly but I’ve seen nothing to make me think he knew Cecelia Shepard or Betty Jansen. It’s possible he desired them from afar, but both murders seem like victims who just wound up at the wrong place at the wrong time, they weren’t targeted personally. But then, who knows.
I have not seen any evidence that drugs played a role in what happened at blue rock springs, or that the individuals targeted were involved in drugs.
Her boyfriend Buzz said she got back into drugs pretty heavily after they broke up. That’s evidence, but not proof.
I believe that they were followed, I also think Mike is being honest when he says when he questioned Darlene about who was following them she told him "it’s nothing", and "he is just jealous" and that she mentions "Richard"…
…I think Mike is honest on these points.
That doesn’t pass the smell test for me. If they thought someone was after them the last place they would go is to a dark, deserted area.
Possibly but I’ve seen nothing to make me think he knew Cecelia Shepard or Betty Jansen. It’s possible he desired them from afar, but both murders seem like victims who just wound up at the wrong place at the wrong time, they weren’t targeted personally. But then, who knows.
All the victims – Betty Loud, Darlene and Cecelia – seem random. They most likely fit a certain defined target profile – intimate couples perhaps – that Zodiac had, but I do not believe he knew any of them in any way. As you say, wrong place at the wrong time.
With violence that can be traced to a prior relationship between a victim and perpetrator (a relationship only in the perpetrator’s head would count I guess) there tends to be a significant focus on violating the facial area. This did not happen in any of those cases. As far as I know Zodiac did not target any of these victims on the face.
The only exception is Cheri Jo, who had a disproportionate amount of injuries to her face. If this was done by Zodiac she really may have "brushed him off" earlier.
I don’t think Darlene was targeted for knowing anything, I think she was targeted for turning down a dangerous individual who was romantically interested in her.
Yeah, that I would agree with.
I’m guessing that this was a consistent motive for zodiac, with the exception of the paul stine homicide.
Possibly but I’ve seen nothing to make me think he knew Cecelia Shepard or Betty Jansen. It’s possible he desired them from afar, but both murders seem like victims who just wound up at the wrong place at the wrong time, they weren’t targeted personally. But then, who knows.
I have not seen any evidence that drugs played a role in what happened at blue rock springs, or that the individuals targeted were involved in drugs.
Her boyfriend Buzz said she got back into drugs pretty heavily after they broke up. That’s evidence, but not proof.
I believe that they were followed, I also think Mike is being honest when he says when he questioned Darlene about who was following them she told him "it’s nothing", and "he is just jealous" and that she mentions "Richard"…
…I think Mike is honest on these points.
That doesn’t pass the smell test for me. If they thought someone was after them the last place they would go is to a dark, deserted area.
I think they proceeded to blue rock springs, even though they were being followed, due to the nature of their deciding to be together that night. Dea and Mike would not have been able to see one another for a period of time and were trying to get some quality time in before this happened. Guys becoming jealous and causing problems for dea was common, she probably thought it would blow over, or turn into a fist fight between the men at the worst.
Regardless, I know I could be wrong, but I take Mike for his word when it came to the statements that they were being followed, as well as the statements he made below:
At around 24m:45s into the film we have Mike speaking about what Darlene had told him, he says:
"She told me, uhm, a friend of hers and not to worry about it, he is just jealous, that’s all she said about him, he is just jealous, she never mentions his name…she said something about RICHARD, something about his name was RICHARD, [mumbling]…named RICHARD, and I think that was his name, she referred to him as RICHARD, [places arms behind his head] the zodiac killer, the guy… she said he had a very mean temper and that if he ever found out he would kill her, he would kill her, this she mentioned those were her words, he would kill me if he ever I knew I was talking to you about that…she told me that. [Arms still behind head]Transcribed from "this is the zodiac speaking by Topsy Kret / Me. E. Mann
Possibly but I’ve seen nothing to make me think he knew Cecelia Shepard or Betty Jansen. It’s possible he desired them from afar, but both murders seem like victims who just wound up at the wrong place at the wrong time, they weren’t targeted personally. But then, who knows.
All the victims – Betty Loud, Darlene and Cecelia – seem random. They most likely fit a certain defined target profile – intimate couples perhaps – that Zodiac had, but I do not believe he knew any of them in any way. As you say, wrong place at the wrong time.
With violence that can be traced to a prior relationship between a victim and perpetrator (a relationship only in the perpetrator’s head would count I guess) there tends to be a significant focus on violating the facial area. This did not happen in any of those cases. As far as I know Zodiac did not target any of these victims on the face.
The only exception is Cheri Jo, who had a disproportionate amount of injuries to her face. If this was done by Zodiac she really may have "brushed him off" earlier.
I do not see these victims as being random at all, particularly Cheri jo bates, Darlene Ferrin, and Cecilia Shepard.
…but I have stated all this before.
Just so I can gain an understanding of your opinion on the matter, I hope it would not be too much trouble if you coukd elaborate on this particular matter:
What indications are there that these victims were random rather than specifically targeted?
Cecelia Ann Shepard was a student at the University of California in Riverside California…
If the Cheri jo bates homicide was an actual zodiac, then this shows a potential connection to zodiac and young college aged women from riverside. …whom I think that he likely knew.
I think they proceeded to blue rock springs, even though they were being followed, due to the nature of their deciding to be together that night. Dea and Mike would not have been able to see one another for a period of time and were trying to get some quality time in before this happened. Guys becoming jealous and causing problems for dea was common, she probably thought it would blow over, or turn into a fist fight between the men at the worst.
Regardless, I know I could be wrong, but I take Mike for his word when it came to the statements that they were being followed, as well as the statements he made below:
At around 24m:45s into the film we have Mike speaking about what Darlene had told him, he says:
"She told me, uhm, a friend of hers and not to worry about it, he is just jealous, that’s all she said about him, he is just jealous, she never mentions his name…she said something about RICHARD, something about his name was RICHARD, [mumbling]…named RICHARD, and I think that was his name, she referred to him as RICHARD, [places arms behind his head] the zodiac killer, the guy… she said he had a very mean temper and that if he ever found out he would kill her, he would kill her, this she mentioned those were her words, he would kill me if he ever I knew I was talking to you about that…she told me that. [Arms still behind head]Transcribed from "this is the zodiac speaking by Topsy Kret / Me. E. Mann
Perhaps I’m just parsing hairs here but he said that about the guy in the car that pulled in then left after they got to the park, if I’m not mistaken. I point that out as I’m not sure he knew any of that before they got to the park.
I’m of a mind to think that what Mike meant by being pursued "big time" is that they thought someone was following them. I mean, listening to the interview it seems like he’s saying there was some high speed chase, but I’m inclined to think it was just his way of saying someone was following them.
It’s possible, if they were being followed, the car turned off before they got to the park, or drove on by and they thought they were wrong about being followed until the car pulled back into the parking lot. I’ve had that happen myself. Think someone was following me only to realize they were just going the same way I was. Also had a very strange incident happen once where someone was indeed following me.
I think they proceeded to blue rock springs, even though they were being followed, due to the nature of their deciding to be together that night. Dea and Mike would not have been able to see one another for a period of time and were trying to get some quality time in before this happened. Guys becoming jealous and causing problems for dea was common, she probably thought it would blow over, or turn into a fist fight between the men at the worst.
Regardless, I know I could be wrong, but I take Mike for his word when it came to the statements that they were being followed, as well as the statements he made below:
At around 24m:45s into the film we have Mike speaking about what Darlene had told him, he says:
"She told me, uhm, a friend of hers and not to worry about it, he is just jealous, that’s all she said about him, he is just jealous, she never mentions his name…she said something about RICHARD, something about his name was RICHARD, [mumbling]…named RICHARD, and I think that was his name, she referred to him as RICHARD, [places arms behind his head] the zodiac killer, the guy… she said he had a very mean temper and that if he ever found out he would kill her, he would kill her, this she mentioned those were her words, he would kill me if he ever I knew I was talking to you about that…she told me that. [Arms still behind head]Transcribed from "this is the zodiac speaking by Topsy Kret / Me. E. Mann
Perhaps I’m just parsing hairs here but he said that about the guy in the car that pulled in then left after they got to the park, if I’m not mistaken. I point that out as I’m not sure he knew any of that before they got to the park.
I’m of a mind to think that what Mike meant by being pursued "big time" is that they thought someone was following them. I mean, listening to the interview it seems like he’s saying there was some high speed chase, but I’m inclined to think it was just his way of saying someone was following them.
It’s possible, if they were being followed, the car turned off before they got to the park, or drove on by and they thought they were wrong about being followed until the car pulled back into the parking lot. I’ve had that happen myself. Think someone was following me only to realize they were just going the same way I was. Also had a very strange incident happen once where someone was indeed following me.
He said what about the guy who pulled in?
He said what about the guy who pulled in?
"She told me, uhm, a friend of hers and not to worry about it, he is just jealous, that’s all she said about him, he is just jealous, she never mentions his name…she said something about RICHARD, something about his name was RICHARD, [mumbling]…named RICHARD, and I think that was his name, she referred to him as RICHARD, [places arms behind his head] the zodiac killer, the guy… she said he had a very mean temper and that if he ever found out he would kill her, he would kill her, this she mentioned those were her words, he would kill me if he ever I knew I was talking to you about that…she told me that. [Arms still behind head]
All of that I left in your quote. That Darlene said all of that about the guy after he first pulled in behind them and then left. I was just pointing that out as I’m not sure he knew any of that before they got to the park.
He said what about the guy who pulled in?
"She told me, uhm, a friend of hers and not to worry about it, he is just jealous, that’s all she said about him, he is just jealous, she never mentions his name…she said something about RICHARD, something about his name was RICHARD, [mumbling]…named RICHARD, and I think that was his name, she referred to him as RICHARD, [places arms behind his head] the zodiac killer, the guy… she said he had a very mean temper and that if he ever found out he would kill her, he would kill her, this she mentioned those were her words, he would kill me if he ever I knew I was talking to you about that…she told me that. [Arms still behind head]
All of that I left in your quote. That Darlene said all of that about the guy after he first pulled in behind them and then left. I was just pointing that out as I’m not sure he knew any of that before they got to the park.
Oh.
I thought that Mike had questioned Darlene when he had noticed that they were being followed. He mentions seeing the same car in several locations and becoming nervous, which is when he asked dea what was going on.
Though perhaps he was told all of these things just after the first car pulled away and before the shooters car arrived…
Oh.
I thought that Mike had questioned Darlene when he had noticed that they were being followed. He mentions seeing the same car in several locations and becoming nervous, which is when he asked dea what was going on.
Though perhaps he was told all of these things just after the first car pulled away and before the shooters car arrived…
I’m not saying that with certainty, mind you, I don’t know. It just seems from the interview it was all said after they were at the park and he asked who that was in the car that pulled in, then left.
If they thought they were being followed before they got to the park however, I’m sure they discussed it. Mike might be cramming all that together.
