How many of the possible victims do YOU believe Zodiac did?

Is bajillion an actual number?

You’ve been missed.

7, possibly 9 if you include Lompoc in 1963.

I think 4 at least.

How many of the possible victims do YOU believe Zodiac did?

Is bajillion an actual number?

You’ve been missed.

Good to know that’s true somewhere, finally.

+100…based on bodies lying around in the US

QT

I am with Quicktrader on this one. serial killers don’t usually stop unless they are in jail, mental hospital or dead. I don’t believe Zodiac was any of those, so I have to say that he has not stopped killing, my guess is 100+.

Some of you would say : Why then hasn’t he written any letters claiming more victims ? Well there was a person who told the police that he was responsible for killing more than 12 in there area alone. He told them that he was the Zodiac, but the police didn’t want to believe he was telling the truth.

I do believe that he was telling the truth. If he doesn’t get caught as Zodiac, he will be caught for the 12 + he killed in Contra Costa county.

I don’t know about the killing or victim part Sandy but I would venture to say the Zodiac has been writing all along. It is in his blood and really more so than the killing. He thrived on the writing. He may not write about or as the zodiac but he will still write and rather cryptically. Not saying this is him but the Leo and Cancer type communications would be a good example of how he could continue or even with the atkid stuff.

Soze

I don’t know about the killing or victim part Sandy but I would venture to say the Zodiac has been writing all along. It is in his blood and really more so than the killing. He thrived on the writing. He may not write about or as the zodiac but he will still write and rather cryptically. Not saying this is him but the Leo and Cancer type communications would be a good example of how he could continue or even with the atkid stuff.

Soze

I agree Soze, He has that compulsion to write as well as kill. I do believe however that when he said he would no longer announce who or when he would kill, that he held back on writing as Zodiac. It could be that he was gone from Calif. for that time and knew that if he wrote from out of state someone might put two and two together and he could get caught.
I personally think that he went to the east coast. If he didn’t leave northern Calif. he could have written in the personals or to the editor but not as Zodiac. I am not convinced that he didn’t send the 1978 I am back letter.
As I have stated before, Sherwood Morrill said that letter was from Zodiac , Morrill was the best as far as I am concerned.

My main point is that I believe he is still alive Killing and writing , but LE is sweeping it under their blue rug , because they don’t want to believe it is him or don’t want to cause panic. There were a few Pittsburg officers who felt their serial killer was in fact Zodiac, but it was hushed up.

I agree Soze, He has that compulsion to write as well as kill. I do believe however that when he said he would no longer announce who or when he would kill, that he held back on writing as Zodiac. It could be that he was gone from Calif. for that time and knew that if he wrote from out of state someone might put two and two together and he could get caught.
I personally think that he went to the east coast. If he didn’t leave northern Calif. he could have written in the personals or to the editor but not as Zodiac. I am not convinced that he didn’t send the 1978 I am back letter.
As I have stated before, Sherwood Morrill said that letter was from Zodiac , Morrill was the best as far as I am concerned.

My main point is that I believe he is still alive Killing and writing , but LE is sweeping it under their blue rug , because they don’t want to believe it is him or don’t want to cause panic. There were a few Pittsburg officers who felt their serial killer was in fact Zodiac, but it was hushed up.

What you say is very true. The act of sitting down and writing about his crimes seemed to be as important to Z as the crimes themselves. This is what always makes me wonder if he was an artist/writer, or at least someone who imagined himself to be a great artist/writer. Serial killers sometimes view the act of killing as an art form. I think Z was such a killer. He was not a perfectionist, but very few artists are perfectionists. It is the expression or manifestation of abstract feelings and emotion into the real world that is most important to many artists. A poet for instance will put down his emotions/feeling on paper, and that has the effect of making them seem real and tangible.

There is little to suggest that Z got much in the way of sexual satisfaction from killing. He did however get great satisfaction out of boasting about his crimes to the police and the press. He wanted to see his name in print. Not only that, he wanted his art to make the headlines on the front page. He wanted people to know and respect him (i.e. the buttons) and to be remembered. I have no doubt that he got his rocks off from taunting the public and the police and by making threats, implied or otherwise.

As a painter or novelist, he may not have been very talented at all and possibly got rejected a lot. He was possibly very intolerant of rejection. So he may have found a surrogate "art form" in killing, which did provide him with the attention that he had always craved. He found that his ego could be satisfied, at least for a while, even if it meant he had to do the most evil and despicable things to achieve that aim. As a painter or novelist he may have been prone to using pseudonyms or nom de plumes, out of fear that his real name may have seemed too bland and uninteresting. By using made up names, he may also have been trying to conceal a past crime, or a surname that he associated with something from his past that he personally despised. He would have been the kind of artist who chose a name that sounded authoritative, powerful and awe-inspiring, or able to evoke fear. Z chose the name "Zodiac" for his particular brand of "art".

And yes,it would be very unusual for a serial killer to suddenly stop unless something happened that prevented him from killing. Either he did stop because of some illness or injury, or he didn’t stop and just became more secretive about his killing.

RedRider, I believe he could have become more secretive, or like I have said, the police don’t want to announce that they have received communication from thee Zodiac.

None of the detectives that worked the case are still around , so it makes it difficult for them to recognize what could actually be from Zodiac.

Myself, I feel that he has done some horrific crimes that have received front page recognition and that alone has satisfied his quest for fame.

The thing that bothers me about that theory Sandy, is his ego. The Zodiac clearly had a gigantic ego. He wanted everybody to know that it was he who committed the crimes and nobody else. So to suddenly go secretive while still killing does not fit with the usual concept of a serial killer. Perhaps he was not a "typical" serial killer and there was something about his psychology that allowed him to satisfy his compulsions without needing to satisfy his ego. As an artist, I guess he could have found satisfaction through another outlet, e.g. if he did actually manage to become a famous artist. Or perhaps he became incapacitated due to an illness or injury so began writing about his exploits in a novel that he is planning to send to a publisher before he dies? Or maybe he thinks he has accumulated enough slaves to keep him company in the afterlife? Or he became a mercenary in a foreign country and got his kicks that way. Still, none of those things really make much sense from the traditional textbook perspective of serial killers. I guess if we take Jack the Ripper as an example, he did seem to have the ability to vanish back into mainstream society whenever he wished it. Ted Kaczynski spent long periods out in the woods in isolation. I guess those periods were a kind of artistic or cathartic self-exile for him. But I still have trouble with the idea of the Zodiac suddenly finding the ability to suppress his ego while still satisfying his compulsions. That part makes no sense.

The thing that bothers me about that theory Sandy, is his ego. The Zodiac clearly had a gigantic ego. He wanted everybody to know that it was he who committed the crimes and nobody else. So to suddenly go secretive while still killing does not fit with the usual concept of a serial killer. Perhaps he was not a "typical" serial killer and there was something about his psychology that allowed him to satisfy his compulsions without needing to satisfy his ego. As an artist, I guess he could have found satisfaction through another outlet, e.g. if he did actually manage to become a famous artist. Or perhaps he became incapacitated due to an illness or injury so began writing about his exploits in a novel that he is planning to send to a publisher before he dies? Or maybe he thinks he has accumulated enough slaves to keep him company in the afterlife? Still, none of those things really make much sense from the traditional textbook perspective of serial killers. I guess if we take Jack the Ripper as an example, he did seem to have the ability to vanish back into mainstream society whenever he wished it. But I still have trouble with the idea of how the Zodiac could have suppressed his ego while still satisfying his compulsions. This makes no sense.

R.R.I don’t see how his ego could be suppressed, when he is still to this day being talked about, written about, movies are about him. I would think that his ego is so big now, he has to turn sideways to get through the opening of a door.

In the early 90’s some NY punk wanted the world to think he was thee Zodiac. That had to up turn the real Zodiac’s apple cart !

That would be about the time we started to hear that there were letters being written by someone who perhaps could be Zodiac. The Eureka letter was sent and put in a drawer at the SF Chronical. Women were being murdered by someone claiming to be the Zodiac in CC County. Letters were sent to police in Pittsburg Ca., from a person claiming he was Zodiac
Zodiac doesn’t want to be a "typical" serial killer, that is probably why he changed it up with Cecelia and Bryan then Paul Stine. I think that he wants to go down in history as not being like any other. I am pretty sure that it was difficult for him to not announce to the newspapers or police, when and who he was killing. When he did write, the letters were thought to be a prank.

If it is true that he went someplace else to continue his murder spree, like to the east coast, or Los Angeles, where he wrote about the blue meanies to the LA times.
It is plausible that he wrote to them, because he was on his way to LA via Pleasanton and wanted to arrive there in time to see it on their front page for himself.
( That would be the way most people from the SF bay area would drive to get to LA)

If he did do any killings there, it would have been foolish of him to let anyone know that is where he was, especially if he was on either the police or someone’s radar.

Example , if I had a boyfriend who was a little too interested in the Zodiac case, who was in each area at the time of every known victim and when he went down south where a new Zodiac letter arrived. I think I might wonder about him being the Zodiac killer, especially if another victim and letter turned up there during that time.

He could have also gone there for about a week to find work, came back for a short time and then went to work there for almost 3 yrs., or stopped what he was doing because he became paranoid. We didn’t hear from him that we know of during that time . He then returns again to the SF bay area for about 7 or 8 months .

I do believe that he did travel a lot as did Darlene’s killer, even went out of state from time to time. she said. He seemed to disappear during the Son of Sam murders , which were very much like Zodiac’s lovers lane couple killings.

The "I am back letter" April 24th 1978 that Sherwood Morrell said was "authentic" was sent 8 months after Berkowitz was caught as the Son Of Sam. The 4 yrs of silence, told me he was gone from California and came back once again.
I don’t like being redundant, but as I have said before when Z said "I am back", he realized that was too telling and covered his a– by then writing I have always been here. He wanted us to think he never left. I hope someday he will tell us where he did go ?

I sure took the long way around the barn to make my point!

I’m not suggesting anyone can know exactly what goes on inside the mind of a serial killer, and to do so would be an exercise in futility, as it would be purely based on our own speculation. But for some reason I very much doubt that movies or books would have been enough to placate his ego or his constant desire to be recognized. The thing is even if everybody in SF had started wearing Zodiac badges, that would not have been enough to satisfy his ego. He would have vamped it up to another level by making even more demands. I’m pretty sure mental illness doesn’t work so easily or conveniently that a mentally ill person can turn his condition on and off like a tap whenever he feels like it. So this whole idea of going incommunicado while still killing just doesn’t make sense to me, which I admit, could be the very reason why he was never caught. If he did have a true "split personality" and somehow managed to suppress his alter ego without medication, for years at a time, that would be very, very unusual. I still think the most logical assumption is that the Zodiac is dead and he died a long time ago, most likely in a mental hospital or by his own hand. If he had reached a point where he could no longer satisfy his compulsions and became so paranoid and delusional that he even feared himself, I think the most likely thing would have been his own self-destruction. I personally believe he drowned himself in a lake somewhere. Any persons running about today calling themselves the Zodiac can only be copycats in my honest opinion. I cannot agree with the idea that the FBI and LE are withholding letters from the Zodiac, mainly because he always relied on the press to publish his letters and ciphers and boast about his crimes. The FBI may be a powerful organization, but even they do not own the press. To suggest otherwise is to verge into conspiracy theory territory and I don’t feel like going there. As for movies and books about him, I am sure he would have been writing strangely-worded reviews of them and sending these to the papers for publication. He would not have been able to resist making his own thoughts known. But no, all we got was silence, which strongly suggests he was already by that time incapacitated or deceased.

RR, You and I will just have to agree to disagree. It is a well known fact that the newspapers were told by LE to not feed into Zodiac’s ego by putting his letters in the
newspapers, because they felt he was killing so that he could read about himself in the paper. They understood that and stopped putting his letters on the front page of the papers. That was probably why Zodiac reached out to the LA Times and wrote to them.

Zodiac was not a logical person, so it is impossible to try and make any logical sense out of what and why he did or didn’t do.
We know that there were more letters that were never put in the paper, like the DMV letter being one of them for instance.

Read the FBI reports , you will learn more about his letters there.

I know for a "fact" that someone claiming he is Zodiac and who also claimed he was still killing has been ignored. I was told that just a few months ago, by a detective who had worked homicide in Contra Costa County. He believes that there are "many more" that were committed by the same killer of at least 12 of them.

You can discount that information and continue to believe what you want to and I will continue to go with the facts of the case.
Even though we know that Zodiac was indeed a liar, he could have been telling the truth when he said he would stop writing but would continue to kill.

A lot of us who have an interest in the Z case , pick and chose what we want to believe, so you are not alone.
I don’t understand that when people believe the Zodiac is dead ,like Robt. Graysmith believes Allen was zodiac and is very dead, so he no longer has an interest in the Z case. Why would other people continue on about it, if they truly believe he is dead ?

Sandy, do you know what they did with the unreleased letters? I wish they would now release them as they may give clues that the others do not!

It would be interesting to compare the handwriting and postage. Did he continue to use double postage for instance. With the "Forever" stamps, maybe he stopped doing so. Of course the content of those letters is what would be the most significant imo.

Wonder if they tested for DNA and fingerprints?

Sandy, do you know what they did with the unreleased letters? I wish they would now release them as they may give clues that the others do not!

It would be interesting to compare the handwriting and postage. Did he continue to use double postage for instance. With the "Forever" stamps, maybe he stopped doing so. Of course the content of those letters is what would be the most significant imo.

Wonder if they tested for DNA and fingerprints?

Hi Capricorn, many of us have been trying to find the missing letters. I asked one of the Paul Stine case detectives, who we had at one of our Zodiac task force meetings.
I asked him more than one question of course LOL.
One was if he ever saw the DMV letter and I don’t remember the other one I was curious about? He hadn’t heard about them or didn’t remember. I asked him if all of the letters that he did see, were done in blue felt tip pen, other than the typed letters? He wasn’t sure, I can understand that , after all it was about 45 yrs ago at that time.

He was impressed with our knowledge of the case. As you know I have a secret admirer who claims he is Zodiac and have received a few letters from him in the 80’s 90’s. only one envelope that I remember had more than one stamp on it. The stamps were Fire engines, I was dating a fireman at that time, coincidence maybe. One of the other envelopes that had been sent to me by the killer of the prostitutes , had only one stamp with flowers on it , turned upside down and tilted slightly. Someone told me that a upside down stamp means love. I find it extremely hard to believe that a serial killer can love anyone, let alone me, who can be a real bitch when I get upset !

I don’t know if anymore tests have been done on the other letters, but I was told that they had received three more. Those were from one of the SFPD detectives who had been keeping them as souvenirs!
It was my understanding that DNA tests were being done on those three. I spoke to the person who was in charge of their DNA lab and asked her if she ever tested the inside of the gloves that were found inside of the cab ? She looked at me as if she hadn’t been told about those gloves.
After hearing her talk about the DNA that they did have, I am confident that it was enough at that time to be used to disprove any suspects. She gave a promising talk about that DNA and the advances they were making with DNA. I would like to talk to her again about those gloves which were a size 7. The watch band at Riverside was 7 inches in circumference , I wonder if there is any correlation to a size 7 glove ?