onewhoknows, Subject: HOW OLD IS THE ZODIAC KILLER TODAY? Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:37 pm

How old would you say the Zodiac Killer is today?
What are the odds he is deceased? What are the odds the men
still surviving have fingerprints on file or contributed DNA?
If he was only 20 years old in 1969, he would be 63 today.
If he were 35 years old in 1969, he would be 78 today.
Who are we looking for?

Clovis, Subject: Re: HOW OLD IS THE ZODIAC KILLER TODAY? Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:16 pm

Mid 70s to mid 80s.

Seagull, Subject: Re: HOW OLD IS THE ZODIAC KILLER TODAY? Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:03 pm

I think that the odds of Zodiac being alive are slim but not totally out of the question and if he is alive I think he would be between 75 and 80 years old. I believe the odds of his fingerprints being on file are less than his odds of still being alive. There are too many "ifs" surrounding Zodiac’s prints. Does LE truely have Zodiac’s prints being the main concern.

I do think it is quite possible that Zodiac’s prints were on file in some LE department at one time before the automated systems were set up. Unfortunately many prints were purged from files, never having been put into the automated system, long before the possible Zodiac prints were entered. Zodiac could have been committed to a mental institution, too, where access to his prints was not available to LE due to medical privacy concerns.

If we knew who we were looking for we wouldn’t still be looking.

morf13, Subject: Re: HOW OLD IS THE ZODIAC KILLER TODAY? Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:07 pm

I would guess z would be mid 60’s on the low end, mid 80’s on the high end(In other words) I am keeping my options open

soze, Subject: Re: HOW OLD IS THE ZODIAC KILLER TODAY? Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:11 pm

67

Soze

Quicktrader, Subject: Re: HOW OLD IS THE ZODIAC KILLER TODAY? Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:28 am

67

Soze

Also would say about 65-68 if we eventually mention him

– being 18-19 as ‘Sandy’ (1963)
– being 21-22 yrs. at the time of the Cheri Jo Bates (1966)
– Fouke mentioned Z to be slightly older than on the sketch, therefore approximately 29-34 years old (1969), however he mentioned that they had passed him with and that he had not talked to Z
– being 25-26 at the time of the Kathleen Johns incident (1970) – Z had been wearing ‘belly trousers’
– in the Tsukamolo incident (1970) the attacker was estimated to be younger with 22 yrs.
– after an article about Robin Graham a woman ‘Brenda Harrison’ (real name?) had been writing a letter to Robin Graham’s parents mentioning a similar incident with a man claiming to be an off-duty police officer being approx. 25 yrs. (she later had identified Bruce Davis as being that man, Davis was arrested in Washington in 1972, Z later called and wrote letters)

If only half of thatis true, Z should be about 67-68 years old. If Fouke was absolutely right however, Z would now be approximately 72-74 years old. BUT: Fouke had mentioned that he had not even stopped when passing that man..

http://www.thezodiacmansonconnection.co … lated.html

Overall Fouke’s statement sounds a bit more plausible than the one of Pelissetti. They in fact disagree to each other, not only when it comes to the point if Fouke had been talking to Z or not, but also about the place where Fouke had met Pelisetti:

Pelissetti claims that he had been walking down Jackson to Maple

‘I got all the way down (Jackson) to the next corner, which was Maple’

while Fouke states that he had met Pelisetti at Cherri

So we proceeded to the next block, which was Jackson and Cherry. Turned southbound on Cherry Street, saw Armond Pelissetti.

And actually Pelissetti admits that when he walked down Cherry:

I did not run because there are innumerable alcoves and parked cars, so I went down following every technique I knew so I didn’t get my head blown off

QT

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: HOW OLD IS THE ZODIAC KILLER TODAY? Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:44 am

I’d venture he was in his late twenties to mid thirties in 1968.

entropy, Subject: Re: HOW OLD IS THE ZODIAC KILLER TODAY? Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:52 am

67

Soze

Also would say about 65-68 if we eventually mention him

– being 18-19 as ‘Sandy’ (1963)
– being 21-22 yrs. at the time of the Cheri Jo Bates (1966)
– Fouke mentioned Z to be slightly older than on the sketch, therefore approximately 29-34 years old (1969), however he mentioned that they had passed him with and that he had not talked to Z
– being 25-26 at the time of the Kathleen Johns incident (1970) – Z had been wearing ‘belly trousers’
– in the Tsukamolo incident (1970) the attacker was estimated to be younger with 22 yrs.
– after an article about Robin Graham a woman ‘Brenda Harrison’ (real name?) had been writing a letter to Robin Graham’s parents mentioning a similar incident with a man claiming to be an off-duty police officer being approx. 25 yrs. (she later had identified Bruce Davis as being that man, Davis was arrested in Washington in 1972, Z later called and wrote letters)

If only half of thatis true, Z should be about 67-68 years old. If Fouke was absolutely right however, Z would now be approximately 72-74 years old. BUT: Fouke had mentioned that he had not even stopped when passing that man..

QT

There’s plenty of room for speculation but I’m not crazy about calculating Z’s age based on multiple incidents that we don’t even know if he was involved in. Fouke’s age estimate was 35-45. It is somewhat of an outlier but why would we try to speculate what he really meant based on his opinion of the original sketch? Right or wrong, Fouke felt Zodiac was 35-45 years of age in 1969, which, if alive, would make him 78-88 years old today.

morf13, Subject: Re: HOW OLD IS THE ZODIAC KILLER TODAY? Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:37 am

Fouke….the same guy that didnt feel it was needed to tell the Detectives that he saw Z walking up steps to an address. The same guy that says he didnt stop zodiac,while Zelms seemed to indicate to his Family that they did stop Z. More and more,I dont know what I believe from Fouke.

We also should look at,and listen to, other possible Z clues, such as, both Hartnell & Slaight stated that Z sounded like he was in his early 20’s. The guy seen by the 3 girls at Berryessa, seemed to be wearing the same attire as Z, so perhaps they really did see Z,and they said he was in his upper 20’s to about 30,which matches the age of the Johns attacker. Basically,it’s all over the place.

KEY.SMITH697, Subject: Re: HOW OLD IS THE ZODIAC KILLER TODAY? Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:35 am

:elephant:

soze, Subject: Re: HOW OLD IS THE ZODIAC KILLER TODAY? Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:54 am

Fouke….the same guy that didnt feel it was needed to tell the Detectives that he saw Z walking up steps to an address. The same guy that says he didnt stop zodiac,while Zelms seemed to indicate to his Family that they did stop Z. More and more,I dont know what I believe from Fouke.

We also should look at,and listen to, other possible Z clues, such as, both Hartnell & Slaight stated that Z sounded like he was in his early 20’s. The guy seen by the 3 girls at Berryessa, seemed to be wearing the same attire as Z, so perhaps they really did see Z,and they said he was in his upper 20’s to about 30,which matches the age of the Johns attacker. Basically,it’s all over the place.

Very well agree.

Soze

entropy, Subject: Re: HOW OLD IS THE ZODIAC KILLER TODAY? Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:58 am

Fouke….the same guy that didnt feel it was needed to tell the Detectives that he saw Z walking up steps to an address. The same guy that says he didnt stop zodiac,while Zelms seemed to indicate to his Family that they did stop Z. More and more,I dont know what I believe from Fouke.

We also should look at,and listen to, other possible Z clues, such as, both Hartnell & Slaight stated that Z sounded like he was in his early 20’s. The guy seen by the 3 girls at Berryessa, seemed to be wearing the same attire as Z, so perhaps they really did see Z,and they said he was in his upper 20’s to about 30,which matches the age of the Johns attacker. Basically,it’s all over the place.

Point taken, morf, but do we really throw out Fouke’s eyewitness account because he failed to provide other important information? His omissions may be self-serving. His physical description is somewhat of an outlier and may be totally off base but I would say that it should be given MORE consideration if he actually stopped and talked to Zodiac, not less. If that’s the case, he had the best opportunity for observing Zodiac of any eyewitness hands down. I can’t think of any reason why Fouke would purposely give an inaccurate estimate of Z’s age.

QT was estimating Fouke’s estimate to be 29-34 years of age based on his opinion of the sketch and I think that’s a bit disingenuous when we have his written report stating what he thought Z’s age range was at the time. Kathleen Johns estimated her attacker to be about 30, not 25-26. I think all of the eyewitnesses gave the best possible physical description they had to offer and I think it’s fair to speculate which might be more or less accurate. The earwitnesses’ (Hartnell and Slaight) opinions of his voice are certainly worth considering for this question. As mentioned, I’m very leary about factoring in these other possible cases, especially when there are no eyewitness descriptions at all.

morf13, Subject: Re: HOW OLD IS THE ZODIAC KILLER TODAY? Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:26 pm

I agree Entropy, I think that we can’t throw out all of foukes info but need to be wary of it, I also don’t think the voice info provided by Hartnell and Slaight should be dismissed but seeing somebody has to be more reliable than hearing them

tahoe27, Subject: Re: HOW OLD IS THE ZODIAC KILLER TODAY? Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:20 pm

Fouke said 35-45, true. That is a pretty big gap.

Maybe the "light hair, possibly graying in rear" comment Fouke left pushed him towards possibly being older….sort of a just-in-case type thing…hence "45".

Fouke states 5’10"

What is interesting is in the police report, the shooter is listed as "early 40’s"….this the night of the killing.
Along with, "reddish blond" hair and 5′ 8"…..sounds like Mike M’s description.

http://www.zodiackiller.com/StineReport2.html

So, did the kids say this older age all along and the original composite was just plain written up wrong?

entropy, Subject: Re: HOW OLD IS THE ZODIAC KILLER TODAY? Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:35 pm

Fouke said 35-45, true. That is a pretty big gap.

Maybe the "light hair, possibly graying in rear" comment Fouke left pushed him towards possibly being older….sort of a just-in-case type thing…hence "45".

Fouke states 5’10"

What is interesting is in the police report, the shooter is listed as "early 40’s"….this the night of the killing.
Along with, "reddish blond" hair and 5′ 8"…..sounds like Mike M’s description.

http://www.zodiackiller.com/StineReport2.html

So, did the kids say this older age all along and the original composite was just plain written up wrong?

Now that’s interesting, Tahoe. No, I don’t think the kids’ description was mistakenly reported and they just happened to agree with Fouke precisely but that police report is rather interesting, no?

The police report, the day after Stine’s murder, certainly does seem much closer to Fouke’s report than the original composite sketch based on the kids’ initial input, doesn’t it?

10/12/69 Police Report: Early 40’s, 5′ 8", heavy build, reddish-blonde "crew cut" hair.

10/13/69 Initial Composite Sketch: 25-30 years old, 5′ 8" to 5′ 9", Reddish Brown Hair, Crew Cut.

10/18/69 Revised Composite Sketch: 35-45 Years, approximately 5’8", Heavy Build, Short Brown Hair, possibly with Red Tint.

11/12/69 Fouke Report: 35-45 Yrs., about 5" 10", 180-200 lbs., medium-heavy build, barrel chested, medium complexion, light colored hair possibly graying in rear.

I think the most logical explanation is that changes in the age and physical description from the initial composite sketch came from Fouke’s input and were, for better or worse, weighed heavily in the direction of his description.

Jem, Subject: Re: HOW OLD IS THE ZODIAC KILLER TODAY? Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:09 am

l11/12/69 Fouke Report: 35-45 Yrs., about 5" 10", 180-200 lbs., medium-heavy build, barrel chested, medium complexion, light colored hair possibly graying in rear.

Light hair possibly graying in rear? There’s something strange about that part of the description, imo.

Just my observation, but hair either begins showing gray around the hairline in the front or else all over the head at the same rate.

Quicktrader, Subject: Re: HOW OLD IS THE ZODIAC KILLER TODAY? Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:03 am

l11/12/69 Fouke Report: 35-45 Yrs., about 5" 10", 180-200 lbs., medium-heavy build, barrel chested, medium complexion, light colored hair possibly graying in rear.

Light hair possibly graying in rear? There’s something strange about that part of the description, imo.

Just my observation, but hair either begins showing gray around the hairline in the front or else all over the head at the same rate.

Hair gel shining in the moon light (if there was some?)? Some people also have sort of a genetic color disease, making parts of the hair grow without color? I definitely loose mine in the front as you can se…no picture from behind available.

Everybody who still has some hair on his head: :cheers:

QT

Jem, Subject: Re: HOW OLD IS THE ZODIAC KILLER TODAY? Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:30 am

Hair gel shining in the moon light (if there was some?)? Some people also have sort of a genetic color disease, making parts of the hair grow without color? I definitely loose mine in the front as you can se…no picture from behind available.

Everybody who still has some hair on his head: :cheers:

QT

Yeah, hair gel could be the answer.
Wow, didn’t know that pic was you, QT. Don’t worry about hair loss – your spectacular cleft chin draws all the attention, making you a.. real QT!

traveller1st, Subject: Re: HOW OLD IS THE ZODIAC KILLER TODAY? Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:00 am

:cheers:

Going grey in front though and plenty o grey in the beard.

entropy, Subject: Re: HOW OLD IS THE ZODIAC KILLER TODAY? Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:13 am

l11/12/69 Fouke Report: 35-45 Yrs., about 5" 10", 180-200 lbs., medium-heavy build, barrel chested, medium complexion, light colored hair possibly graying in rear.

Light hair possibly graying in rear? There’s something strange about that part of the description, imo.

Just my observation, but hair either begins showing gray around the hairline in the front or else all over the head at the same rate.

Well, Fouke even acknowledges that Z’s premature graying may or may not be accurate, stating (May have been lighting that caused this effect).

http://zodiackiller.com/FoukeReport.html

Could this observation have had an influence on his age estimate? That’s certainly possible.

That said, Fouke offers some observations that would have likely been impossible for the teens to observe:

Elastic cuffs and waist band zipped part way up. Brown wool pants pleated type baggy in rear (Rust Brown). May have been wearing low cut shoes.

No way to confirm, of course, but these are some pretty specific observations. That’s why it’s hard for me to imagine that Fouke would estimate a 20 year-old, for instance, to be 35-45 when he’s able to gather these other very specific observations and why I think it would be unwise to just summarily dismiss his age estimate. I don’t think Z was in his 40s but I also wouldn’t rule out any suspect under 45 at the time based on age alone.

morf13, Subject: Re: HOW OLD IS THE ZODIAC KILLER TODAY? Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:22 am

No way to confirm, of course, but these are some pretty specific observations. That’s why it’s hard for me to imagine that Fouke would estimate a 20 year-old, for instance, to be 35-45 when he’s able to gather these other very specific observations and why I think it would be unwise to just summarily dismiss his age estimate. I don’t think Z was in his 40s but I also wouldn’t rule out any suspect under 45 at the time based on age alone.

I think those are very specific observations for somebody that was supposed to be looking for a black suspect, and if we believe Fouke’s account in his interview, only got a rolling glance at Zodiac.

soze, Subject: Re: HOW OLD IS THE ZODIAC KILLER TODAY? Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:59 am

No way to confirm, of course, but these are some pretty specific observations. That’s why it’s hard for me to imagine that Fouke would estimate a 20 year-old, for instance, to be 35-45 when he’s able to gather these other very specific observations and why I think it would be unwise to just summarily dismiss his age estimate. I don’t think Z was in his 40s but I also wouldn’t rule out any suspect under 45 at the time based on age alone.

I think those are very specific observations for somebody that was supposed to be looking for a black suspect, and if we believe Fouke’s account in his interview, only got a rolling glance at Zodiac.

I believe z’s statement that he was stopped.

Quicktrader, Subject: Re: HOW OLD IS THE ZODIAC KILLER TODAY? Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:14 am

No way to confirm, of course, but these are some pretty specific observations. That’s why it’s hard for me to imagine that Fouke would estimate a 20 year-old, for instance, to be 35-45 when he’s able to gather these other very specific observations and why I think it would be unwise to just summarily dismiss his age estimate. I don’t think Z was in his 40s but I also wouldn’t rule out any suspect under 45 at the time based on age alone.

I think those are very specific observations for somebody that was supposed to be looking for a black suspect, and if we believe Fouke’s account in his interview, only got a rolling glance at Zodiac.

I believe z’s statement that he was stopped.

Could’ve been a lie to not be blamed for having talked to him and letting him go…but: why did Fouke mention his rear head? Might be he saw him walking up the stairs to Bloch’s house?

QT

soze, Subject: Re: HOW OLD IS THE ZODIAC KILLER TODAY? Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:26 am

No way to confirm, of course, but these are some pretty specific observations. That’s why it’s hard for me to imagine that Fouke would estimate a 20 year-old, for instance, to be 35-45 when he’s able to gather these other very specific observations and why I think it would be unwise to just summarily dismiss his age estimate. I don’t think Z was in his 40s but I also wouldn’t rule out any suspect under 45 at the time based on age alone.

I think those are very specific observations for somebody that was supposed to be looking for a black suspect, and if we believe Fouke’s account in his interview, only got a rolling glance at Zodiac.

I believe z’s statement that he was stopped.

Could’ve been a lie to not be blamed for having talked to him and letting him go…but: why did Fouke mention his rear head? Might be he saw him walking up the stairs to Bloch’s house?

QT

I’m sorry. I am sure I am probably the only one who believes this, but, I don’t believe the zodiac ever lied about a thing.

Soze

soze, Subject: Re: HOW OLD IS THE ZODIAC KILLER TODAY? Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:28 am

Must have read your statement wrong. Sorry.

Soze

smithy, Subject: Re: HOW OLD IS THE ZODIAC KILLER TODAY? Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:20 pm

I’m sorry. I am sure I am probably the only one who believes this, but, I don’t believe the zodiac ever lied about a thing.
Soze

Really?
Soze – how about "If you cops think I’m going to take on a bus the way I stated I was, you deserve to have holes in your heads"??
Not that you need to look far for lies – but this is a proper admission of one, hmmmmmmm?

soze, Subject: Re: HOW OLD IS THE ZODIAC KILLER TODAY? Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:36 pm

I’m sorry. I am sure I am probably the only one who believes this, but, I don’t believe the zodiac ever lied about a thing.
Soze

Really?
Soze – how about "If you cops think I’m going to take on a bus the way I stated I was, you deserve to have holes in your heads"??
Not that you need to look far for lies – but this is a proper admission of one, hmmmmmmm?

Perhaps that’s the reason why this case has been unsolved for the past 40+ years because no one hes been able to see how humorous this killer really was. He wasn’t serious about his bomb to begin with. His statement that you quoted was to point that out as well as the fact they were idiots to have thought it at all. A vail threat aimed soley at the children who saw him on the night of stines attack.

Soze

Jem, Subject: Re: HOW OLD IS THE ZODIAC KILLER TODAY? Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:55 am

That said, Fouke offers some observations that would have likely been impossible for the teens to observe:

Elastic cuffs and waist band zipped part way up. Brown wool pants pleated type baggy in rear (Rust Brown). May have been wearing low cut shoes.

No way to confirm, of course, but these are some pretty specific observations. That’s why it’s hard for me to imagine that Fouke would estimate a 20 year-old, for instance, to be 35-45 when he’s able to gather these other very specific observations and why I think it would be unwise to just summarily dismiss his age estimate. I don’t think Z was in his 40s but I also wouldn’t rule out any suspect under 45 at the time based on age alone.

Entropy, I just don’t know…

Elastic cuffs – easy for the kids to distinguish banded cuffs from non-banded cuffs
and waist band zipped part way up – I think not to hard to see that
Brown wool pants – color maybe difficult to see, pant material (wool) would be difficult
pleated type – pretty easy
baggy in rear – also easy to notice
(Rust Brown) – hmmm… good color choice if you have to explain why you didn’t notice any blood stains?
May have been wearing low cut shoes – May have!? Not very specific, especially considering the wide majority of men are probably wearing low cut shoes at any given time.

Okay, I think that when Fouke said "Welsh" he really was thinking of Tom Jones, although he denied it. Very popular entertainer in 1969. I’d bet if you’d asked 100 people, back then, what they thought a Welshman looked like, about 95 would say something like, "Well, lessee, Tom Jones is Welsh, and he has kind of a medium complexion and curly reddish brown hair…" If it’s true that Fouke was meaning "looks like TJ", then he should most definitely have stopped the guy, because a guy who looks like TJ might easily have been mistaken, in a dark setting, for a BMA with light coloring. Just my opinion.
————————————————————-
Soze, ITA that Z was a joker, not serious about bombing buses and killing children. But he knew SFPD would have to take him seriously. If he thought it was so obviously a joke, then why not call or write immediately when all the commotion with the police escorts began? Because he had the whole city terrified and he liked it! He lied for the fun of it.