Marshall, why do you think the man who committed the Berryessa stabbings wrote Vallejo on the car door when the first crime was committed in Benicia? The newspapers never mentioned they were committed in Vallejo. Zodiac never mentioned Benicia in any communication and neither did the person who wrote the car door message.

We debate the authenticity of entire mailings, but consider the 18 letters on the car door as conclusive. Now you’re taking that and saying you can draw a conclusion from just one number? Wow. Well, does the LB car door "8" really look that similar to the Bus Bomb "8"? Big bottom loop, tiny bottom loop.

There might be a marginal difference between the writing of 8 but the spaced handwriting style looks very much like the letters to me.

“Why are you locked into a copycat concept? If the guy was a copycat he wouldn’t have worn a halloween outfit and used a knife. I am suggesting he was some nut who had his own, distinctly different, fantasy he wanted to play out.”

Seriously a person who wears a customer with a Zodiac symbol on then copies Zodics writing and symbol on a car door is not a copycat, you are the person who is proposing this theory but what you call the above ?

“How is he supposed to stop all the letter hoaxers and the LB hoaxer? What he did do, in the Bus Bomb letter, is tell us his "killing tools" were bought before the ban went into effect. I don’t believe there was a ban on knives, and he doesn’t mention knives in his list of his killing tools. Why not? If he was the LB Stabber, he would’ve mentioned that killing tool, wouldn’t he?”

Surely if he feels strongly enough to not move in on somebody else’s territory, would he seriously in turn allow somebody to move into his without calling them out. Sorry where exactly does Zodiac give us a list of his killing tools ? If we are being pedantic the knife could have been purchased before the ban went into effect, but that seems like a childish response. What was the ban exactly ?? He did mention that killing tool, what was written on the car door ?

“ I believe it was but can’t confirm. If somebody asked me to draw crosshairs, I’d draw it the way Z did.”

You are correct, as on the previous post Richard G point out out that it was shown in the Vallejo Times Herald so I freely hold my hands up on that one I was wrong. On the other hand though if it copied it could only have been from this paper thus meaning that the attacker would have had access to that paper.

“ We debate the authenticity of entire mailings, but consider the 18 letters on the car door as conclusive. Now you’re taking that and saying you can draw a conclusion from just one number? Wow. Well, does the LB car door "8" really look that similar to the Bus Bomb "8"? Big bottom loop, tiny bottom loop.”

Personally I don’t debate any of the confirmed letters, people specifically trained and far more intelligent than myself in this field actually studied the originals so I can only take their findings as canon. No I am not drawing a conclusion from one number, it is an accumulation of a lot of things which I did previously list. The writing on the car door was never going to look exactly as placed in a letters, the circumstances during which the car door and letters are so drastically different that they would never be identical.

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I am not deliberately being an arse I promise you, it’s not in my nature. I actually enjoy discussions like this as it focuses the mind and can lead to new findings. This is why like as I previously requested please can you give us your reasons why it would not be the Zodiac, it may add merit to the discussion.

What we need is one reason why it is a crime that cannot be committed by Zodiac, and only committed by an imposter.

How is he supposed to stop all the letter hoaxers and the LB hoaxer? What he did do, in the Bus Bomb letter, is tell us his "killing tools" were bought before the ban went into effect. I don’t believe there was a ban on knives, and he doesn’t mention knives in his list of his killing tools. Why not? If he was the LB Stabber, he would’ve mentioned that killing tool, wouldn’t he?

The gun comments were a direct response to reports in the papers about LE’s attempts to trace them. You can’t trace some generic knife.

What we need is one reason why it is a crime that cannot be committed by Zodiac, and only committed by an imposter.

Or, do we even need to go there? Did any LE personnel in 1969 doubt that LB was a Zodiac crime? If not, why are we Monday morning quarterbacking that assessment today?

How is he supposed to stop all the letter hoaxers and the LB hoaxer? What he did do, in the Bus Bomb letter, is tell us his "killing tools" were bought before the ban went into effect. I don’t believe there was a ban on knives, and he doesn’t mention knives in his list of his killing tools. Why not? If he was the LB Stabber, he would’ve mentioned that killing tool, wouldn’t he?

The gun comments were a direct response to reports in the papers about LE’s attempts to trace them. You can’t trace some generic knife.

If he said "guns" you’d have a good point. But he used the all-inclusive term "killing tools." No need to buy it mail order before a ban (because there was no knife ban,) and no need to travel out of state to get one (going out of state from the bay area is a full day round trip.) Because, as you say, a knife can’t be traced and they are quite easy to acquire.

What we need is one reason why it is a crime that cannot be committed by Zodiac, and only committed by an imposter.

Or, do we even need to go there? Did any LE personnel in 1969 doubt that LB was a Zodiac crime? If not, why are we Monday morning quarterbacking that assessment today?

Right, let’s just accept Bob Barnett killed Cheri and Arthur Leigh Allen was Zodiac. But wait! LE thought Zodiac killed Cheri.

Marshall, why do you think the man who committed the Berryessa stabbings wrote Vallejo on the car door when the first crime was committed in Benicia? The newspapers never mentioned they were committed in Vallejo. Zodiac never mentioned Benicia in any communication and neither did the person who wrote the car door message.

On your website, numerous newspapers reported LHR (the first crime) as being in Vallejo: https://www.zodiacciphers.com/zodiac-ne … r-articles

Marshall, why do you think the man who committed the Berryessa stabbings wrote Vallejo on the car door when the first crime was committed in Benicia? The newspapers never mentioned they were committed in Vallejo. Zodiac never mentioned Benicia in any communication and neither did the person who wrote the car door message.

On your website, numerous newspapers reported LHR (the first crime) as being in Vallejo: https://www.zodiacciphers.com/zodiac-ne … r-articles

Not one of those articles mentioned a crime committed in Vallejo. If you can find one I will apologize.

Not one of those articles mentioned a crime committed in Vallejo. If you can find one I will apologize.

Don’t Benicia and Vallejo border each other? The first two crime scenes are so close that interchanging the city names seems reasonable.

Not one of those articles mentioned a crime committed in Vallejo. If you can find one I will apologize.

Don’t Benicia and Vallejo border each other? The first two crime scenes are so close that interchanging the city names seems reasonable.

The Lake Herman Road turnout was outside the jurisdictional line of Vallejo.
@38.1155648,-122.1754827,12.75z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x8085119732ce0709:0x95933f02a8c61639!8m2!3d38.1040864!4d-122.2566367″> https://www.google.com/maps/place/Valle … 22.2566367

Benicia
@38.0888887,-122.1946992,13.25z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x80856db5fb326033:0x9c2e0b0755afa15d!8m2!3d38.049365!4d-122.1585777″> https://www.google.com/maps/place/Benic … 22.1585777

When detailing his first two crimes of Lake Herman Rd and Blue Rock Springs to Jack Stiltz in the Debut of Zodiac letter, the Zodiac Killer wrote "In answer to your asking for more details about the good times I have had in Vallejo". He detailed the Benicia crime under the banner of Vallejo, just like the writer on the car door.

“Why are you locked into a copycat concept? If the guy was a copycat he wouldn’t have worn a halloween outfit and used a knife. I am suggesting he was some nut who had his own, distinctly different, fantasy he wanted to play out.”

Seriously a person who wears a customer with a Zodiac symbol on then copies Zodics writing and symbol on a car door is not a copycat, you are the person who is proposing this theory but what you call the above ?

The word isn’t copycat, it is:
ap·pro·pri·ate

verb

1. take (something) for one’s own use, typically without the owner’s permission: "his images have been appropriated by advertisers"

Sorry where exactly does Zodiac give us a list of his killing tools ? If we are being pedantic the knife could have been purchased before the ban went into effect, but that seems like a childish response. What was the ban exactly ?? He did mention that killing tool, what was written on the car door ?

His killing tools are described on the Bus Bomb letter. I included an image. He uses the inclusive term "killing tools" but only talks about guns, which apparently couldn’t be purchased through the mail after a certain date. Again, the attack on Bryan and Cecelia, the halloween costume, and the car door writing all tie together, obviously. But I don’t think they tie back to Shooter Z.

“ We debate the authenticity of entire mailings, but consider the 18 letters on the car door as conclusive. Now you’re taking that and saying you can draw a conclusion from just one number? Wow. Well, does the LB car door "8" really look that similar to the Bus Bomb "8"? Big bottom loop, tiny bottom loop.”

Personally I don’t debate any of the confirmed letters, people specifically trained and far more intelligent than myself in this field actually studied the originals so I can only take their findings as canon. No I am not drawing a conclusion from one number, it is an accumulation of a lot of things which I did previously list. The writing on the car door was never going to look exactly as placed in a letters, the circumstances during which the car door and letters are so drastically different that they would never be identical.

Fair enough. But 18 letters, with the added complexity of writing them with big letters while squatting in front of a vertical surface, just isn’t enough to draw any conclusions.

Honestly, when I look at the Z letters and samples of TK’s writing, I would swear it’s the same guy. Then I look at Fred Manalli’s handwriting samples and I’m left wondering….. were Zodiac, Ted Kaczynski and Fred Manalli all the same guy? Yes, I’m kidding, but it really makes me skeptical of handwriting analysis done on very small samples.

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I am not deliberately being an arse I promise you, it’s not in my nature. I actually enjoy discussions like this as it focuses the mind and can lead to new findings. This is why like as I previously requested please can you give us your reasons why it would not be the Zodiac, it may add merit to the discussion.

I’m glad you say this because I enjoy the debate and don’t want to annoy people. I’ve got no dog in the fight. I have no pet suspect, I’m not writing a book or working on a podcast, and I’ve never been shy about admitting a mistake, or being convinced towards a new viewpoint. For a long time I thought LB was obviously Zodiac too. Everyone said so. But then, a few people here who I think are particularly clear headed (like Tahoe) started making points that I found compelling, and the more I thought about it, the more distinction I saw between the shootings and the stabbings. Not just the weapons, that’s just a tiny difference.

When detailing his first two crimes of Lake Herman Rd and Blue Rock Springs to Jack Stiltz in the Debut of Zodiac letter, the Zodiac Killer wrote "In answer to your asking for more details about the good times I have had in Vallejo". He detailed the Benicia crime under the banner of Vallejo, just like the writer on the car door.

Do you think that cuts against the narrative that Zodiac was a Vallejo resident?