The one thing that screams out "rich guy" in the Z letters is the Monarch sized paper. In fact, in 1999 I got two letters from a rich guy and they were on this sized paper.

Mike

Isn’t that countered by the ‘poor guy’ aspect of the mismatched & worn front tires on Zodiac’s car at Berryessa?

Hi-

A retired Superior Court judge from Solano County read my report in 2001 and we became good friends. He used to call Monarch sized paper "rich people’s stationery." He said that he had read thousands of parole letters and that not one was written on Monarch sized paper. He also said the criminals he dealt with could not have written the Z letters. I’ve seen some of the literary efforts of some of the "usual suspects" that are in the Solano County Police files (the part of the report that Butterfield did not con me out of and post online). And they were pretty pathetic writers, LOL.

As for Z’s age, I am in my 50s and a few years ago at the place I worked people didn’t believe I was any older than 35. So it is not how old you are, it is how old the people who are looking at you perceive you are. But that is obvious, right?

Mike

So where is the evidence putting Zodiac over the age of 30? No disrespect Mike, we all have our suspects.
But the evidence shows reports of 20 to 30 years of age for Zodiac, this would be from live witnesses to the murders
or police phone operators who heard his voice. It is hard to say about Zodiac’s economic status. No one said he was
dirt poor, but more from a working class type of background. Why would someone 45 years old, and established financially,
drive all the way to Vallejo to find a remote spot off the road, and just happen to find some kids to kill? If you are in your 50’s
I suggest you first find the energy to drive to Lake Berryessa, get out and walk to the scene of the murder and then imagine the energy
required to stab two young people repeatedly? And you are a wealthy man? It just doesn’t make sense to me and I am in my 50’s and
returned to this location recently. In my own opinion of course…Zodiac had nothing to lose, no money, no wife or kids, not a very
good job.

I think there is too much of a mish-mash of stuff to say one way or another.

My guess is around 30 or a tad younger, but it’s just that…a guess.

If Zodiac were an older man, talking of slaves in the afterlife could be a way to make people think he was a younger man, into the occult or something. I’ve often thought that was just "stuff" Zodiac threw into the mix to mislead investigators. I mean….slaves in the afterlife? IF it were true, I’d say his targets would have been chosen…not random, so I call BS.

I don’t know about anyone else here, but all the paper I have at home I stole from work.
Now I understand that a company isn’t going to use that paper for everyday printing, but my office certainly has a few batches of quality paper for special things like contracts and letters from our president. Z may have just swiped some paper from work – in fact could his tearing of the ends mean that there was a company header or footer on the paper? I don’t know if they did those things in the 60s.

Hi-

A retired Superior Court judge from Solano County read my report in 2001 and we became good friends. He used to call Monarch sized paper "rich people’s stationery." He said that he had read thousands of parole letters and that not one was written on Monarch sized paper. He also said the criminals he dealt with could not have written the Z letters. I’ve seen some of the literary efforts of some of the "usual suspects" that are in the Solano County Police files (the part of the report that Butterfield did not con me out of and post online). And they were pretty pathetic writers, LOL.

As for Z’s age, I am in my 50s and a few years ago at the place I worked people didn’t believe I was any older than 35. So it is not how old you are, it is how old the people who are looking at you perceive you are. But that is obvious, right?

Mike

Not to take this thread off course onto a thread about MikeR’s suspect, but I do have a couple quick questions about him, sorry if I missed the answers elsewhere. Forgetting his older age for a minute, did he have any accent at all? And also, I have never seen his printed writing anyplace(I have seen his signatures). Do you have any samples to share? One thing I like about your POI Mike, is that he wrote letters to the editor of the newspapers, which is something I think Zodiac likely did,BEFORE he became Zodiac, and maybe he used his real name. I personally think Z,whomever he was, was based out of the Vallejo area, and the Vallejo Times Herald may have letters to the editor from Z using his real name

Hi-

First of all, I am not going to debate how old Z was because you can APPEAR to be younger than you are. If you believe Z had to 30 or so, that is fine. I know a 90 year-old family friend who people say looks like he is in his 60s. Fouke was a trained observer and he said that the hairline on the second sketch should have been even more receding and that the guy was older than the kids said. I have no proof that Z was older than 30. But he wore outdated pleated pants. And there is that reference to "getting his rocks off with a girl," which was apparently a term used by older individuals. So can anyone tell me that he COULD NOT have been over 30? Anyone can learn the most faddish terminology that is in the news. Z knew about "blue meannies". Thanks to Miley Cyrus, I now know what twerking is. I’m not under 30.

When we showed the key Stine eyewitness a photo in 2003 of an individual who was almost fifty in 1969, his reaction was not, "No way! That guy is way too old to have been the guy we saw!" Instead, he was stunned into silence at how close the man looked to the guy he saw that night. He started blabbering and muttering to himself at how stunned he was at the comparison.

As for the Monarch sized paper, sure Z could have stolen it or found it in a drawer. But look at the pattern–he used multiple 9 mm guns, which were not inexpensive to buy even in the 1960s. He was very familiar with a wealthy area of SF that, according to a recently retired SFPD Inspector, over 90% of San Franciscans could not find then or today on a map because it is so far from downtown and is in an exclusive neighborhood. Also, Mr. Walter said that Z had the "luxury of sophistication" in being able to conceive and execute his uber-meticulous blocks of code and his bomb diagrams. Wealthy folks are more likely to be able to purchase multiple expensive weapons and have the leisure time to draft blocks of code.

Mike

In reference to this threads topic SLAVES IN THE AFTERLIFE :

Found this interesting information in a post, posted 01 Nov 2006, by a guy named Richard Keith Munro, explaining about Samhain (in modern time called Halloween).
And thinking of Zodiac’s apparent interest for Halloween (CJB murder Oct 30, and the Halloween card to PA) I wonder if his "slaves in the afterlife"
came from his possible deeper interest/knowledge of the ancient culture of Samhain/Halloween ?

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Cel … pics/12126

Quote:

"In the days before Patrick and Columba the Celts would collect heads and display them on
Samhain to ward off spirits and remind them that they would be subject to
them as slaves in the Afterlife."

Here is the whole post by Richard Keith Munro :

01 Nov 2006

CEUD MILLE FAILTE! (100,000 welcomes!) SITH GUN ROBH SO! (May peace be
here!)

Thanks very much for the Cymric (Welsh) touch! I had never heard of Mari
Lloyd -though of course I knew Lloyd was a Welsh name or word.

My Auld Pop was raised in the Highlands and told me many things of his
people there and the people of the Western Islands whom he knew well at sea
and in the army.

He also used to talk of the "Taffies" who were the Welshmen -and Manxmen as
well- and I know he said their language was quite different from Gaelic but
that their choirs were second to none! But as far as I know I have no Welsh
ancestry though I am told we have a strong Pictish strain as the Munroes of
Ulster intermarried with the Picts when they came into Ferindonald and the
land of the Moray Firth. I was always told that the Munroes hailed from the
Roe (Halo River) of Ulster and that they came into Scotland to fight the
Vass or Sutherlanders (the Vikings) who were contending with the native
Picts for dominion of the North East.

I know there are a lot of horse stories.

One of the Highland stories I heard was of a man who captured a water-horse
(each-uisge; also called a Kelpie) from a loch with a great net.

No other horse ever worked as fast or raced as fast as the water-horse.

The man gained fame and wealth from the horse and he wanted more and more
from it.

One day the man struck the water-horse and the animal gave a blood-curdling
cry that scared the man near out if his wits. But before he could react,
the water-horse reared up and then dashed off the cliff into the loch.

And to the man disappeared into the darkness and silence of the loch!

Soon after the man was found drowned but only pieces of him were found as if
he had been bitten and eaten by the water-horse!

So the saying goes ‘capull le ceannsachd’ which means treat a horse or mare
with gentleness!

I wonder if this is anything like Mari Lloyd? (the Gray Mare).

In the Highlands and Islands of old there were bonfires (samhnagan; "wee
Samahain fires" were lit in special places and it was the custom, for
children especially, to dress in disguises and play tricks. The dark months
after Halloween were calld na Miosan Marbha (the Months of the Dead). There
is no question Halloween was associated with the Otherworld, spirits and the
dead. It was said that at the meeting of day and night on that day the
Dead crossed over into the Land of the Living to visit and to haunt and
sometimes torment!

" Samhuinn" means literally (according to MacBain) "summer’s end" though
some call it "samani" the assembly time or the gathering up of the herds.

Apples and hazel nuts were used in these rituals and there is an old saying

Is ann Oidhche Shamhna a chnagadh tu cno! (‘Tis on Halloween you would crack
open a nut!)

They used to carve faces into neeps (turnips) and stick them on poles and
dance with them around the bonfires. I have since read that this was a
remnant of a Pre-Christian custom of head-hunting. In the days before
Patrick and Columba the Celts would collect heads and display them on
Samhain to ward off spirits and remind them that they would be subject to
them as slaves in the Afterlife.

In olden days it was, I was told, the time to go on sprees (cattle raids)
because the cattle were fat from the summer and could be moved a long way.
This was long before the days of my Auld Pop because I suppose such cattle
raiding was suppressed by the 18th or early 19th century.

But he heard stories about it from the Bodachs (the old men). He was a boy
in the 1890’s so those men were in their 70’s or 80’s then so they were
talking about their fathers and grandfathers.

Cuime am biomaid gun eudail (Why should we be without cattle

Agus spreidh aig na Gallaibh? When the Lowlanders (Gall) have them ?)

Gheibh sinn crodh as a’Mhaorainn (We’ll grab cattle from the Mearns

Agus caorich-mora a Gallaibh! (And Big Sheep from the Lowlanders!)

I have also heard it said that Halloween was at one time New Year’s Eve for
the Celts but that with the coming of Christianity many of the beliefs and
rituals of Halloween were moved to December 31. I think it is also true
that the Established Church in Scotland frowned on many of these customs so
they were never practiced in the Lowlands or in the towns but only in remote
and rural places. So if Halloween was practiced in America it was because
the country people brought it with them and carried on their folk customs in
freedom and joy.

Well, I hope you enjoyed this. I enjoy remembering things I was told. The
Highlands and Islands seemed to me then a very magical place where the
people were very attached to the land, its customs and close to each other.

There was, Auld Pop said, "a welcome behind each half-door" and people had a
pride of name and remembered the people they came from.

Of course, that was long ago and recalls, perhaps, a way of life that if not
gone from us entirely slowly disappearing.

It is a blessing ,therefore, that we have the music and the songs to
remember that "once upon a time there was a people called the Gaels."

Seallaidhean bu bhrèagha

Sights more beautiful

Riamh chan fhaca sùil

The eye could never see

Spréidh amach ‘gam feurach

Cattle out grazing

Madainn ghrianach chiùin

On a peaceful, sunny morning

‘N uiseag air a sgiath

The lark high on the wing

Seinn gum fhiamh a’ chiùil

Singing her song with confidence

‘S an ceò mu cheann Beinn Tianabhaig

And the mist swirling around Ben Tianabhaig

Is an sliabh fo dhrùchd

With the mountain covered in dew

Soraidh leis an àit’

Farewell to the place

An d’ fhuair mi m’ àrach òg

Where I was reared when young

Eilean nam beann àrda

Island of the high bens

Far an tàmh an ceò

Capped where the mist rests

Air a moch a dh’ èireas

On which rises early

Grian nan speur fo ròs

The rose-tinted sun in the sky

A’ fuadach neul na h-oidhche

Dispelling the nightly bank

Soillseachadh an Stòrr

And lighting the Old Man of Storr

Tha am baile cho falamh

This village seems so empty

Ò thug do chasan thar chuain

Since you went overseas

Mo lèirsinn air dalladh

My eyesight has gone

‘S nach fhaigh mi do shealladh thoirt bhuam

But my vision of you remains

Tha an latha cho fada

The days seem so long

Ís an oidhche cha chaidil mi uair

And I can’t get any sleep at night

Ri caoidh na h-òg chailin

Lamenting the young maid

A mhill mo shonas ís mo shnuadh

Who has ruined my peace of mind and my appearance

As d’ aonais, a leannain

Without you, my love

Tha mise mar leanabh gun treòir

I’m like a helpless child

Le dubhar air m’ anam

My soul is in darkness

Is thrèid na speuran an glòir

And the spheres have forsaken their glory

An lionn th’ air mo chridhe

Depression lies on my heart

Cha thogar le mire no ceòl

Which sport or music cannot lift

‘S às d’ aonais do chomainn

And without your company

A ghaoil, cha teic dhomh bhith beò

Love, there is no point in living

O pill rium, a leannain

Oh return to me, my love

‘S na fàg mo thuireadh gun cheann

Do not let my sorrow go on forever

Air faidead do thuruis

However long your journey

Bidh mise ri feitheamh ‘sa’ ghleann

I’ll wait for you in the glen

‘S ma phòsas fear eil’ thu

And if you should marry someone else

‘S mo dhòchas uile air chall

And all hope is lost

Thèid mise dhan ùir oir

I will go to the grave

‘S e d’ iargain a chuireas mi ann

And it’s longing for you that will put me there

Yes, indeed, great are the Big Songs, full of beauty, love and deep feeling
(cianalas) they are!

Sing, sing, music was given to brighten the soul and keep the world turning!

Souls here, like planets in heaven, revolve round the love that keep them
all moving!

Seinn O,Seinn O. O Sing, O Sing. Ar canain agus ar ceol! Our language and
Our Music!

And remember always CUM GAIDHLIG BEO…keep the Auld Tongue Alive!

Speak it, read it, write it, recite it, remember it….sing it…..Och, aye.
“tis a worthy thing and a lovely thing!

Oidhche Shamnha sona duibh! Happy Halloween to ye a’!

(uh-eech-yuh HA-oon-ah Sonnah doo-eeve)

Richard Keith Munro

Maybe this.

Warning: Seriously messed up Marco article.

Second column top paragraph.

Read the whole thing but it’s horrible. Probably linked with the ‘little list’ letter.

The Signal (Santa Clarita, California) 24 Mar 1969 page 8.

You people are over thinking it.

From the first cipher, we know that he made translation errors and also the same spelling errors that he made in English. He was poorly educated. Quit school and joined probably the navy. I think he went to school around Vallejo area and that was why he was so familiar with it. I wouldn’t mind betting he had family up Lake Berryessa way and knew that area as well. After school he was not living in Vallejo but possibly Richmond as two of his letters were proven to be posted from there. His beef seems to be with SFPD although the only known crime in their jurisdiction was the shooting of the taxi driver. You will find him in the year book, the navy enlistments and the voter records. He probably spent time in prison sometime after being in the navy. Most likely in Montana and he let that slip sort of in the lake Berryessa attack. I think he was probably in there are short time and was damaged even more from who he was associating with. Why he taunts the SFPD when his crimes were committed elsewhere is interesting. I think he just did the 5 and it made him feel powerful compared to the pathetic life he had carved out. He could pretend he had killed more. I think he got spooked by the drawings done of him and he realised he could get caught. Without DNA the way to find him is in the places I mentioned. Some name will be in all those places. If you join Ancestry then they have a lot of California records well past 1940 which is the latest census available to the public.

That’s quite bit of speculation for some trying not to "overthink" things. But I do agree with some parts of what you’re saying, it’s easy to read to much into someone’s knowledge of an area, claims like 90% of locals couldn’t point to it on a map sound pretty dubious, I mean there are so many ways people can become familiar with an area. It’s reasonable to conclude that a good knowledge points to a local of the general area, but to say they had to have lived in that exact neighbourhood, it’s a stretch.

That Count Marco article though, it has a certain irreverent and shocking flavour too it, not unlike Zodiac’s own humour. I can see why people find the connection so tantalising.

You people are over thinking it.

From the first cipher, we know that he made translation errors and also the same spelling errors that he made in English. He was poorly educated. Quit school and joined probably the navy. I think he went to school around Vallejo area and that was why he was so familiar with it. I wouldn’t mind betting he had family up Lake Berryessa way and knew that area as well. After school he was not living in Vallejo but possibly Richmond as two of his letters were proven to be posted from there. His beef seems to be with SFPD although the only known crime in their jurisdiction was the shooting of the taxi driver. You will find him in the year book, the navy enlistments and the voter records. He probably spent time in prison sometime after being in the navy. Most likely in Montana and he let that slip sort of in the lake Berryessa attack. I think he was probably in there are short time and was damaged even more from who he was associating with. Why he taunts the SFPD when his crimes were committed elsewhere is interesting. I think he just did the 5 and it made him feel powerful compared to the pathetic life he had carved out. He could pretend he had killed more. I think he got spooked by the drawings done of him and he realised he could get caught. Without DNA the way to find him is in the places I mentioned. Some name will be in all those places. If you join Ancestry then they have a lot of California records well past 1940 which is the latest census available to the public.

Sushshaf, this thread’s topic is : SLAVES IN THE AFTERLIFE … so please stay on topic !

Hi,

I don’t think that it is "overthinking" to find a link between the concept of slaves in the afterlife, Odin’t cross, a symbol that looks a lot like a bumerke and the twelve signs of the Zodiac being the "houses" of Odin or something, as well as the "sla" reference to "Old Norse" to glean knowledge about Z as someone with knowledge of many things Norse. Unless someone has a different/alternative way to link all of these seemingly disparate things together. It’s called finding a clew through research, which is what solving the case is all about.

Similarly, is it "overthinking" to say that the fact that Z wore Wing Walkers, used a certain style to number pages in the 11/9 letter and used military terminology to imply that he had a military/Naval background, or is that just more good research?

Both.

Sorry, I couldn’t resist.

The possible Norse references are somewhat compelling. But if Zodiac was really referencing a specific occult belief, or practice, wouldn’t a definite link have been established by now? Is the answer likely to be so esoteric as to require a knowledge of such obscure history? Then again the SLA letter, that’s some obscure stuff… hmmmm long bows though.

If you are from a Norwegian background, wouldn’t you have a sort of profound knowledge of Norse culture and possibly Viking history?