Penn was looked into, IIRC, by LE around the time when he came forward with his original "radian theory" and accusations against O’ Hare. He is mentioned in the FBI files too – though precisely in what way I don’t remember at the moment.

Conclusion: LE (Narlow in particular) was very much aware of Penn – but clearly did not consider him a viable suspect.

Like Allen, Penn has – that is at least an interpretation favored by many – deliberately cast suspicion on himself by dropping cryptic hints and comments over the years. My take on the latter is not that Penn was or is truly suspicious – but rather that he likes to play games and draw attention to himself. He’s a very strange person – and his obsession with O’ Hare is downright bizarre – but I doubt very much that he is the Zodiac killer.

Thanks Norse! As always I appreciate your opinions and your help and insight.

I wonder if they ever got a dna sample from him. Not that, that can prove anything though. I do not hold much faith with them having Z’s DNA.

I would like to rule him out but some reason his name keeps popping up here and there in my attempts at the ciphers. But as we have seen lots of things can be read into the cipher-that may not be there.

I am open to suspects but I think I am going to stick with Penn until I feel I have exhausted the issue. But I may have other leads to follow too. So, I will keep treking onward like everyone else.

I wonder if they ever got a dna sample from him. Not that, that can prove anything though. I do not hold much faith with them having Z’s DNA.

I doubt that very much. There might be a slight chance that his prints were checked, however – and a rather decent chance that his writing was checked.

As mentioned above, Penn is featured in the FBI files. This would have been mainly – I’m guessing, and I stress again that I don’t recall precisely what the files contain – because Narlow deemed it pertinent to forward some of Penn’s material (which was to become his O’ Hare book some years later) to the FBI. Parts of his writings on O’ Hare were cipher based, so Narlow would have wanted the federal crypto boys to look at it, etc.

Now, in connection with this – and because Penn clearly struck Narlow as a bit…special * – he might have asked the FBI to check Penn’s prints (if they were available) and his handwriting (which certainly would have been available). I stress that this is speculation on my part, though. I’m about to wade through the FBI files yet again soon, looking for this and that, and if I come across the Penn stuff, I will let you know.

* According to an old story only ONE man was ever thrown out of Ken Narlow’s office (Narlow was known as a pretty easy-going guy). I think you can guess who that man was

Norse

Thank You

I will have to read the O Hare stuff again. Need to refresh my memory maybe I will find some there.

It is difficult to research and work on the cipher at the same time.One thing aways sends me off into a new direction. I find something then I am off running again. It is hard to stay focused with all the Z info out there.

I am not sure what to make of the FBI files. Would they really release everything they had? I would hope they are not that stupid. I would love to see everything they are withholding.

Penn is a funny one. The way he put himself in the limelight-shows a very wicked sense of humor and personality. The whole thing-his taunts and his writings I find intriguing. Odd though.Wickedly evil.

Thanks Norse for your help!

To me Penn is not a viable suspect because there is no evidence to suggest he was the Zodiac. None.

Penn used crazy nonsense means to identify an innocent man as a suspect. Maybe because Penn is so strange, and said weird things about himself, a few people started using equally crazy means to identify Penn as a suspect. This is the obsession at OPORD, and not one bit of valid traditional code work has been produced there or anywhere else showing the name Gareth Penn in the codes IMO.

Also, Penn was in the Army at Fort Sill, Oklahoma at the time of the Bates murder and letters. I think Zodiac killed Bates, there is a lot of evidence to suggest that, and even more evidence Z wrote the letters. Penn could not have killed Bates and he could not have done the letters as he was far away in Army service.

Another reason I think Penn was not Z? have you ever seen his picture fro the 1968-1970 period?

Ak Wilks

No there may not be any (direct) evidence or anything to convict him on

but that does not exclude him in my book. And I do not throw out the

use of the term you used "crazy means". I believe these approaches are

valid. It is far easier to catch the fox with a fox rather than using the

stardard dog. Just because there are "certain rules" on how to

approach a cipher and solve it, does not mean with any certainty

that, that was the way Zodiac created his puzzles.

I do not know if Z killed Bates or not but I do know, from having been in

the military, that it was very very easy to catch "a hop" on any plane just

to fly somewhere or anywhere. Probably even easier to do back then

because things were more relaxed in the military.

Sorry, I do not put much weight to the eye witness accounts.It is always

open for interpretation. People see what they want to see.

Thanks for your opinions, I welcome them, keeps me on my toes.

No problem. You asked I answered.

I would say other than being a white male what evidence shows Penn could be Z?

Crazy may be ill advised on my part. I like unconventional approaches, to an extent. I really tried to follow the OPORD codes that show Penn was Z. I started having problems when one of the decoded clues was where Oswald shot JFK from and that it was a clue to a library, and Penn worked at a library in California. But Oswald did not shoot from a library at all it was a textbook warehouse. There were a lot of clues like that very subjective and debatable. Then it got stranger with decodes based on hidden images. To each his own.

Records show Penn was in attendance at Artillery training in Oklahoma on Oct 30, 1966. The day Bates was killed. And records show no leaves or AWOL during the periods of the letters.

Yes witness statements are never perfect. But every Z description has him short hair clean shaven. None with long hair and beard.

You are free to look at Penn. Some do like him as a suspect. You asked why most exclude him and IMO those are some of the main reasons.

AK Wilks

I am sorry if I sounded gruff, really, that was not my intention. Most definitely I regard people’s opinions as something to learn from and a way for me to build my opinions. It is late, I hope that made sense.

You mentioned OPORD-I found that stuff a bit of a struggle to get through but some of it made some sense. I will have to go back
and review it again and also check out your comment in regards to JFK and the library to see what I can make of it.

If Penn was at Artillery training I would dare say his hair would have been buzzed and he would have been clean shaven at the time Bates was killed. And he still could have taken a "plane hop" without it being on record. Things were more relaxed back then. It would have been easy to fly out to CA and back in no time. That said, I still not sure if Z did kill Bates. I am still open to it either way at this point…..he did or he did not kill her…..I am still in the process of forming an opinion.

There is little evidence showing Penn as the Zodiac. But his name pops up in my work and it is hard to shake or disregard some of it. In regards to some of my stuff, I find it would not convict anyone. But wouldn’t that be the beauty of all it. A real kicker. Stalemate-I guess.

The JFK thing is just one example. There were dozens of things like that. IMO what they are doing there is not code work. A lot of it was visual interpretation. Things like "the skeleton has 3 fingers up so go down three lines on the 340 code. .." Then he put the skeleton on a map of California and said it pointed to where Penn worked. It just did not make any sense to me.

Yes in 66 Penn would have had shorter hair. By the late 60’s Z period he had long hair and a beard. I was in the Army. Men can go from Army to beard in two months and Army to longish hair in six months. Here we are talking three years.

The records indicate Penn was in OK for the Bates murder and mailings. If you want to say he sneaked off base flew to CA killed Bates, came back, and left other times to write and mail letters from Riverside, all with no leave and no AWOL, you can. IMO most accept the records as excluding him from Bates murder and mailings and for many (not all) that excludes him from being Z.

I am no expert on Penn and I am not interested in him. You asked why most people exclude him and I gave you my best answer.

If you are getting PENN in you code work it may not mean him. It could mean Pennsylvania, a writing pen or one of a thousand other people named Penn or pure white noise random. To me Penn is not a Z suspect but an uber eccentric Z researcher.

I really don’t know anything else about him as I never investigated him much as I never saw any evidence to suggest he was Z. So I can’t help you. Somewhere here Zam has answers from Penn to questions members asked him. I asked him about the Webster murder. His answer was unilluminating but it was funny.

To me Penn is not a Z suspect but an uber eccentric Z researcher.

That sums it up nicely, AK.

Regarding the possibility of Penn going AWOL and hopping on a transport (plane) back in 1966, this possibility has actually been put forward by himself, in one of his trademark ambiguous remarks.

Like I said above, he has done this extensively – seemingly casting suspicion on himself, much like Allen did too. It’s important to be aware of this before one attributes any real significance to the "suspicious" statements he has made over the years. He clearly likes to play games. I think Penn finds it very amusing that he has ended up on the "suspect" list, just like his "nemesis" O’ Hare.

To me Penn is not a Z suspect but an uber eccentric Z researcher.

That sums it up nicely, AK.

Regarding the possibility of Penn going AWOL and hopping on a transport (plane) back in 1966, this possibility has actually been put forward by himself, in one of his trademark ambiguous remarks.

Like I said above, he has done this extensively – seemingly casting suspicion on himself, much like Allen did too. It’s important to be aware of this before one attributes any real significance to the "suspicious" statements he has made over the years. He clearly likes to play games. I think Penn finds it very amusing that he has ended up on the "suspect" list, just like his "nemesis" O’ Hare.

Yes exactly! In fact in the Q&A session Zamantha did with him giving him our questions I asked him about the records showing he was on base in OK on 10/30/66 thus clearing him in Bates murder and probably Z case in general. And he said IIRC something like "Yes that would seem to rule me out…except for the fact I sometimes did clerk duties and had access to records". Reminds me of the movie "Laura" were a very intelligent but arrogant and pompous columnist asks a detective if he is on the suspect list for a murder. The detective tells him he is and Waldo Lydecker replies "Good! I would have been supremely insulted had I not been".

I think Penn enjoyed yanking the chain of folks less brilliant than he.

I think Penn enjoyed yanking the chain of folks less brilliant than he.

Yes which in his opinion is the entire world!

His name is mentioned in the FBI files because he sent them his code solution. They did not think much of it. In the huge bunch of documents Morf got from the FBI there was info on Penn and his code work.

Somewhere on this site or the old site is the Q&A that we did with him thanks to Zamantha.

Also, Penn was (briefly) investigated by the FBI for extortion after Michael O’Hare filed a formal complaint in 1981. They paid him a visit, gave him a stern warning & he agreed to stop sending cryptic whatnots to O’Hare’s house.

Here’s a photo of Penn before he became a dome-dwelling beardo…I think it’s from Opord? Their entire Penn section appears to have been nuked from orbit.