No way. It can’t be, there’s no way Tahoe would phone it in on something this basic. This is missing something; all of your examples check out, but there is a difference right? Something obvious.

I’ve just started listening to different renditions. But this Groucho theory doesn’t seem to hold up under much… well… I mean… didn’t anyone… bother to… how is possible not to have… eh, I must be missing something obvious…

Brubaker,

I did something very similar some time back with the July 31, 1969 letter(s). It was my belief that the Zodiac knew all about typography, how newspaper columns were worked and prepared and, wrote his July 31, 1969 letter(s) for exact print in the newspapers. Newspaper column inches had a paragraph size of between 25 to 35 words and I wanted to see how the Zodiacs writing measured up in terms of the column inch/word count. Here is an example:

San Francisco Examiner

I am the killer of the 2 teenagers last christmass at Lake Herman + the girl last 4th of July. To prove this I shall state some facts which only I + the police know.

Word Count: 35

Vallejo Time Herald

I am the killer of the 2 teenagers last Christmass at Lake Herman and the Girl last 4th of July. To prove this I shall state some facts which only I + the police know

Word Count: 35

San Francisco Chronicle

This is the murderer of the 2 teenagers last Christmass at Lake Herman + the girl on the 4th of July near the golf course in Vallejo To prove I killed them I shall state some facts which only I + the police know.

Word Count: 44

Red color represents where two of the letters were right on mark. Blue color represents where he changed it up from the other two and to add additional words where seen. Green color represents where he just added additional words.

Topics, yours and mine, are completely different but still I think they are very similar in the way he operated. So I wonder if you would mind laying out the whole thing even if there were no exact match up.

Thanks for presenting it.

Soze

Hmm. I vaguely remember having convos about this over the years, but it never dawned on me to question it.

This would likely mean there’s no real significance to the Groucho glasses on the Christmas card.

I spent some time today listening to various renditions.

There is a line in the Groucho version that I believe would be the basis for the theory. Groucho sings, "and that singular anomaly the girl who’s never kissed". I believe the original line is about lady novelists. What’s interesting though is, that at least during my listenings today, of all the lines in the song this line is the one most often changed between versions.

It is somewhat astounding though that anyone could be so confident that Groucho’s is the version in question, as it resembles other versions in other important instances. True the "kissed" may seem damning, but the other lines taken in aggregate point as strongly away from Groucho. Consider "placed" vs "put", less compelling to be sure, but enough to cast pretty serious doubt on the idea that Zodiac listened exclusively to the Groucho version

What’s interesting about the Groucho version is how faithful it is to the original. It’s not some dumbed down rewrite for modern audiences. I could easily see a light opera fan enjoying it alongside many other versions. I also find it highly doubtful that a Groucho fan with more mainstream tastes would enjoy this, Groucho makes no effort to perform it in a way that would make it more palatable to non-opera fans. Also I have to wonder given how many renditions I’ve heard today, if Groucho came up with the "kissed" line.

I would speculate that the Zodiac enjoyed many versions of the song and liked Groucho’s change, a change that may be telling.

To conclude I will say this, there is very little basis to conclude that the Zodiac listened exclusively to the Groucho version, infact quite the opposite. It is also misleading to imply that the Groucho version is dumbed down and indicates that the Zodiac had only a superficial interest in light opera, again a proper examination of the evidence suggests the opposite. I am surprised by the obtuse and superficial examination previous researchers have made.

Quote from gsvloc.org:
There is no song in the works of Gilbert and Sullivan that enjoys as rich a tradition having its lyrics revised as does Ko-Ko’s “I’ve Got a Little List” song. Performers began to sing revised lyrics to the song even in Gilbert’s day.

Yes, the "girl who’s never kissed" line is another common point of variation. The Martyn Green Sings the Gilbert and Sullivan Song Book version that I referenced matches Zodiac’s letter in this respect.

Another clue, maybe less compelling, is that Martyn Green affects a blubbering tone when he sings the "lady from the provinces" line. This both makes him hard to understand and makes him sound like he’s crying. Zodiac gets this line really wrong: he writes, "who doesn’t cry" instead of "who doesn’t think she dances but would rather like to try." This moves beyond the lyrics and connects Zodiac to the style of a particular performer or performance.

No disrespect to Tahoe or anyone else. I’m just trying to revisit long-held assumptions (what else is there to do?), and was crazy enough to buy some of the LPs that have recordings I couldn’t find online. Recordings were even less available online back when the Groucho theory was posited.

What does this mean? Probably that any Groucho symbolism is accidental, or that if it’s real, Zodiac somehow knew that people thought he liked Groucho (but the timing doesn’t check out for this, I think).

And Soze: Yours is an interesting idea. I like the way you think.

The strength of a forum is that it’s a dialogue — at least, the good ones like ZKS are. You’re not just reading the YB and nodding along, or having reasonable posts deleted left-and-right by a mod with an agenda.

I would have to do a lot of back-reading to comment any further on it, and — my lawn needs to be mowed…just felt compelled to remark ’cause I know I’ve posted about this general topic in the ancient past & it all gets read by the newbies, God help me/them/us.

Yes, the "girl who’s never kissed" line is another common point of variation. The Martyn Green Sings the Gilbert and Sullivan Song Book version that I referenced matches Zodiac’s letter in this respect.

Well done. This is no small point. You’ve done basic homework and debunked a long standing and popular belief. All that remains is to post a link to a copy of the song, along with a photo of the release date of the record and you’ve basically proven the matter beyond reasonable doubt.

It would be good if some others could proof read your work. I still have this nagging feeling, so many researchers have come to the opposite conclusion, could they all have been so very wrong? Are we absolutely certain we aren’t missing something obvious.

brubaker, if you have the record in your possession I encourage you to film a video of it playing, perhaps show the back of the sleeve, dates, performers, record label etc. That way we can all have a good listen and make sure we aren’t missing a glaring discrepancy.

Brubaker,

I truly liked what you presented. I liked it so much that I looked into Martyn Green and was able to make a connection to my work, not the work presented in this thread but, overall. So thank you very much for presenting it.

I am presently writing a post that will add to two other posts I have written. The first two posts, if you haven’t read them, may be found here http://zodiackillersite.com/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=3421&hilit=post+1 and here http://zodiackillersite.com/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=3422&p=53715&hilit=part+1#p53715.

In this third post I am writing I will be moving from letter to letter in chronological order. I don’t know that I will cover the list letter in the post I am writing as there are so many letters but, when I do get to it, I will most definitely link your post.

Again, thank you. I look forward to reading more from you in the future.

Soze

This is good shit, brubaker. Quality research. Bravo.

It has been assumed that Zodiac copies the Little List phonetically. In other words, he listened to the record and then copied what he HEARD rathe than transcribing written text.

For example, he wrote “pomphit” when the real phrase is “puff it”.

Does this still stand up to scrutiny?

Sure thing.

Here are some images of the album in question:
https://imgur.com/a/bPWwwmF

Here’s the audio (sorry that it’s pretty quiet, and for the ticking clock — I can try to get a louder recording tomorrow):
https://youtu.be/p3lj85knzw8

As for the phonetic transcription, Chaucer, I can’t really say that the Martyn Green version I have sounds a lot like "pomphit." But if you’ll permit me to get a little technical, the vowel in "puff" as it is pronounced in most American English dialects is an open mid-back vowel ("ʌ" in the International Phonetic Alphabet). In some varieties of British English, the vowel in "puff" is lower ("ɐ" in the International Phonetic Alphabet), and thus closer (in one dimension) to the pronunciation of the vowel in American English "pop" ("ɑ" in the IPA). For this small reason, if I had to guess, I’d say that Zodiac was listening to someone with a British accent. That said, Martyn Green’s vowel doesn’t seem particularly low to me in the version linked above. Maybe in another recording it does, and that could be a way to narrow down exactly which album Zodiac had access to.

Thank you very much brubaker for your effort.

Well it’s about time I stopped waffling with my unqualified opinions and actually contributed something to this forum.

Here is my primitive attempt to improve the audio. I filtered it and squeezed it through a compressor. You can hear the clock is hilariously loud, but the lyrics are much easier to understand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TelS-a … e=youtu.be

Well I’ve had a few listens. It’s a close call, and really we aught to tally up the matches properly, but this version is a slightly better fit IMO. But neither are an exact fit, nor any kind of fit phonetically.

It seems clear enough that the Zodiac is at times reciting it phonetically, but I would be seriously incredulous of anyone suggesting that he did so because he was unable to interpret and/or spell the correct lyrics. The idea that anyone could mishear and misspell "puff it" as "phomphit" unintentionally, beggars belief. It is completely unbelievable. It seems quite plain that the mispellings are meant to be irreverent and frankly I think at that point he was enjoying a sort of self parody.

I think we should stop playing the devil’s avocado (clearly I can’t spell either. That was not a joke. I really can’t spell advocate. In no way am I being sarcastic. For I am utterly devoid of humor. I am not waving a giant red flag. I reeeely kant spill. I was kepd in a bel touwer until I was 15. I nivwwer qwent to skrool.) and just accept, as far as it is reasonable, that in all likelihood, he probably did indeed enjoy the Mikado and was familiar with more than a few versions of it’s songs.

Surely the idea that he was some slob who had just blindly seized upon a funny Groucho Marx song is the fringe theory in this situation. Certainly it is plausible, but how did this contrarian view become the more popular explanation? I mean the degree to which he enjoyed Gilbert and Sullivan is open to conjecture certainly.

If you ask me, the Groucho idea appeals to some peoples desire to seek the more clever explanation, the more contrarian explanation, the explanation they were clever enough to uncover; as apposed the more boring, more probable and more straight forward one. Although I must admit that the "all singing, all dancing" Zodiac is also equally as appealing a notion to some contrarians of a contrary persuasion and so it goes.

I disagree. I think it’s pretty clear that he wrote this from memory and he misheard the lyrics. There are plenty of other examples:

“Implore you with im platt”. (Floor with ‘em flat)

“Unspoiling take thoese who insist” (spoiling TETE-E-TETES insist)

“ And that nice impriest” (And that NISI PRIUS nuisance)

Also, the Zodiac uses the phrase “the girl who’s never kissed”. This phrase is only used in the Marx version, no?