, Subject: THE SANTA ROSA MURDERS ,ARE THEY ZODIAC?? Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:19 pm

http://www.santarosahitchhikermurders.com/

Here is a website on the murders that mant has associated with Zodiac.

Nin, Subject: Re: THE SANTA ROSA MURDERS ,ARE THEY ZODIAC?? Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:17 pm

http://www.santarosahitchhikermurders.com/

Here is a website on the murders that mant has associated with Zodiac.

It’s seagull’s website..

-Nin

Zamantha, Subject: Re: THE SANTA ROSA MURDERS ,ARE THEY ZODIAC?? Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:52 pm

Thanks Salus, Seagull does deserve her own thread, as she has put alot of research into her site. She is on of the best researchers. I recommend everyone read her site, and also keep up with her updates. She has passion for these cases to be solved. We are lucky to have her here with us, as she also is a very good team player!

Seagull, Subject: Re: THE SANTA ROSA MURDERS ,ARE THEY ZODIAC?? Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:36 am

Hey, thanks a lot Nin and Zam*! I do have a passion for these particular murders.

For the record I do not believe that Zodiac committed these murders. Who ever did them spent some time with the girls, a couple of them were sexually assaulted (because of the condition of of the remains it is unknown if the others were sexually assaulted), there was evidence of torture and that just wasn’t Zodiac’s style even though he said he would in his letters. Zodiac did his dirty work fast and got out of there, his taunts were from afar, like the phone calls and letters.

I read up on strychnine poisoning, Carolyn Davis’s cause of death, it’s a very grim way to die and takes hours. There was also a lapse between the last time the girls were seen and the time of death which could indicate they were held for maybe days before being killed. Kim Allen was the only girl found the day after her disappearence and her murder was thought to be separate from the others.

I just don’t think that any of these murders have Zodiac’s signature.

Thanks Salus for checking out my site!

, Subject: Re: THE SANTA ROSA MURDERS ,ARE THEY ZODIAC?? Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:26 pm

Yes Seagull its a good site by the way in that murder of those 2 young girls skating, that was in the rink owned by Charles Schultz of Peanuts comic strip fame. Those murders occured right after Zodiac said he wouldnt be publicizing his deeds. This by the way proves that the kathleen johns case proably is zodiac related. Many people say Zodiac loved to take credit on murders he didnt committ such as as the Riverside and Johns cases. In fact is Zodiac wanted to stroke his ego he would have taken credit for the Santa Rosa murders, no he said he was going to kill from then on without publicizing it and i believe those murders are his.

bayarea60s, Subject: SR Murders Z? Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:02 pm

Salus….

They could be Z killings, and they very well might not be. Remember during that time period with all the other nuts the Bay Area had we also had Ted Bundy in Sonoma County. Many of those killings were Bundy-like.
I hear what you’re saying and I definetely do not disagree with you. I fully believe Z kept his word and Stine wasn’t his last killing, nor was LHR his first. But because he went silent in communicating there’s no way to prove that.
If Z doesn’t leave his calling card on Brian’s door at LB I can guarantee you we’d be debating if that was a Z killing or not. Even with the costume. Because he didn’t specifically write to us about it, he didn’t take his usual credit for it. It was during the daytime, he tied up his victims, he wore a costume, he didn’t hit and run like all the known others, he spent time speaking with his victim’s and he stabbed them. All changes to the known MO of Z, and thus would be more than enough to debate the issue and rightly so. If Z doesn’t write to us about Stine, he would never have been implicated with any sticking power to the murder of a cabbie in SF in PH, no way. So we really only speak from where we know of and we rightly discount all others as not fitting his MO.
Most serial murders are connected by their MO, cause they don’t communicate with LE and newspapers, so MO is that LE has. In Z’s case what if he didn’t write at all? There would have been 4 separate murder sites never linked together. All individual murders. The only similar event is LHR and BRS, but one’s a .22 and the other a 9mm, that alone would have ended the connection.
So Z’s MO is he killed and left his victim’s where he killed them and he communicated that he did the crimes. Then he communicates that he won’t communicate with us any longer. Now the only MO we’re left with is he kills and leaves his victim’s where he killed them. So if he changed that MO in any way, goes after lone females without males around, we’re left with nothing. Hard to discount a known killer on nothing.

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: THE SANTA ROSA MURDERS ,ARE THEY ZODIAC?? Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:09 pm

I see absolutely nothing about these crimes that so much as hints at Zodiac being the killer, and would really like to know who suggested a link and why. For the record, I believe that they were committed by at least two separate, unrelated individuals.

bayarea60s, Subject: Nach… Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:42 pm

Nach….

And you’re probably right, but you could be wrong. Lord knows there were many nut jobs in the Bay Area. I don’t think Z killed all those during that timeframe. But I also think he killed many more than I’m aware of.
I thought of some more MO’s of Z, from what I know (41 years studying this guy). Anytime he killed a female there was a male present. Of the 7 known victim’s all 7 had attended school within the last 4 years, within the Bay Area. 5 of the 7 were currently attending school, 4 of the 7 came from the same school district. So school maybe is a connection? Now if we move to SR murders, again many related to school, SRCC, Sonoma State.
When we get down to MO, all’s we know is what Z told us. After that it’s all what we think, what we feel. But I believe he made mistakes along his way. Mistakes big enough to nail him down, and hopefully through sites like this we’ll get to who Z is/was….

bayarea60s, Subject: SR Murders Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:50 pm

PS….Reason for the connection? At least one of the SoCo investigating officers and lots of people living up there believed these to be Z crimes.

calman, Subject: could be bundy Sat Apr 24, 2010 4:38 am

i was under the impression that ted bundy did these killings. the sonoma sketch fits bundy and bundy was working in the area in that time frame.

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: THE SANTA ROSA MURDERS ,ARE THEY ZODIAC?? Sat Apr 24, 2010 5:06 am

PS….Reason for the connection? At least one of the SoCo investigating officers and lots of people living up there believed these to be Z crimes.

Well, for the record, I have two other detectives who worked the cases (Butch Carlstedt and Mike Brown) flat-out dismissing a Zodiac connection.

A killer can definitely change his M.O., Bay; that is indisputable. But can he change his signature, or the needs that drive him? While I may not be an expert on the subject, I haven’t seen any evidence thus far to make me think so. A number of these murders had a sexual aspect to them, indicating that lust was a driving force. From what I know about Zodiac’s known activity, he didn’t appear to be motivated by lust at all. If sex had been a factor, I opine that he would have sexually assaulted his female victims right from the get-go and kept at it all the way.

Seagull, Subject: Re: THE SANTA ROSA MURDERS ,ARE THEY ZODIAC?? Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:12 am

April 3, 1975 Sonoma County sheriff Don Streipeke announced his theory that Zodiac had committed the SRHM. His theory included many murders from Washington state to California, Utah and Colorado. If one were to draw a line through the places where women were murdered from Washington to Colorado that line would be a giant Z in the western US. Though this theory was considered by some in LE it was discounted by most. In fact many of the murders in Washington, Utah and Colorado were eventually known to have been committed by Ted Bundy.

I do have about five articles that appeared in local papers at that time although they are of very poor quality and it is taking some time for my webmaster to clean them up enough to be readable enough to post on the site. You can read more about the theory in a detective magazine story written in Setember of 1975 which is fairly accurate.

http://zodiackiller.com/FrontPageDetective21.html

Butch Carlstedt did go along with this theory for a time but when Bundy was found to have committed most of the murders, he moved on with other suspects. He did believe that he had found the persons who did these murders by 1980. Both of these men had died by then and they were not believed to have worked together. Neither were charged and/or convicted for the crimes.

The cases lay dormant for many years and have been reopened in the past year. The current detectives apparently do not believe that Carlstedt had the correct answer to the murders. They are attempting to get DNA samples from the evidence they have, to hopefully solve these murders by using today’s scientific methods.

EDIT REQUESTED BY SEAGULL: The date at the beginning of the post should read April 23, 1975, not April 3, 1975

Seagull, Subject: Re: THE SANTA ROSA MURDERS ,ARE THEY ZODIAC?? Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:30 pm

Thank you, Morf!

Nacht, Happy Birthday. I have a question for you that I think might be in your area of expertise regarding the 1979 Jane Doe.

As you know much speculation has been made about Jane Doe being the still missing Jeannette Kamahele. Since Jeannette was of Japanese/Hawaiian desent wouldn’t she have a skull structure that would be distinct from other races? Do you think that identification could be ruled in or out on skull structure alone?

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: THE SANTA ROSA MURDERS ,ARE THEY ZODIAC?? Sat Apr 24, 2010 5:54 pm

Thanks for the information, Seagull! That thing about Butch discovering two possible suspects in 1980 fits with my opinion; I hope the reopening of the case gleans the long-sought-after answers.

Now, for the skull structure thing. Identifying race by skull structure is, indeed, possible, but works best with subjects of unmixed race. It’s nowhere as easy as police procedurals make it out to be – detailed measurements of the skull (teeth* included) in question have to be made and compared with known values. To further muddle things, variations can be found in sub-races within a race. In short, the process isn’t one-hundred-percent foolproof and determining that a particular skull structure belongs to an individual of mixed heritage would be tricky. I’d suggest that skull structure analysis only be used to supplement other methods of confirmation.

* On the subject of teeth. I’m surprised they couldn’t confirm or deny that Jane Doe was Jeannette by pulling dental records – was there a particular reason for this?

Seagull, Subject: Re: THE SANTA ROSA MURDERS ,ARE THEY ZODIAC?? Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:26 pm

The articles say that Jeannette wore a dental plate, I’m assuming they mean a partial plate otherwise I think they would have said dentures, and no dental plate was located at the scene where Jane Doe was found. I do not know what the condition of the teeth were in Jane Doe’s skull, whether they were all there, etc.

I do know that Jeannette went to high school in Japan. She may have had her dental work done there and x-rays may not have been available. I just don’t know for sure. The Jane Doe was not one of Carlstedt’s cases so he was not familar with some of the details.

Comparing the teeth would seem the most logical way of telling whether or not Jane Doe and Jeannette were one in the same, at that time, but apparently it was not something they were able to do.

Theforeigner, Subject: Re: THE SANTA ROSA MURDERS ,ARE THEY ZODIAC?? Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:02 pm

Here is a picture from Jeanette Kamahele´s Yokohama American High School yearbook, she gradueded 1970:

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/k/k … nette.html

And here you can find lots of info on Seagulls great website.

http://www.santarosahitchhikermurders.com/

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: THE SANTA ROSA MURDERS ,ARE THEY ZODIAC?? Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:48 pm

Interesting how that first link outright says that the Calistoga Road Jane Doe’s teeth did not match Jeanette’s dental records.

What a waste. She was such a nice-looking girl…

bayarea60s, Subject: SR suspects Deceased? Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:55 pm

Seagull…

Do we know the names of these 2 guys who died back in the ’80s, who SR LE feel were the killers?

Attaching Bundy to any of these crimes is apparently more difficult than I thought, since there’s no record of him murdering anyone until ’74. Not to say he couldn’t have been in Calif in ’72, but you would think more people could put an actual date on when he was in the state. LE should have been able to place him working (for sure) in a given timeframe. He must have lived somewhere, rented something from someone.

Seagull, Subject: Re: THE SANTA ROSA MURDERS ,ARE THEY ZODIAC?? Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:16 pm

Nacht, I know what the site says and it’s in a couple of articles written after Jane Doe was found but they wouldn’t be doing DNA testing now, which is what the SO is doing, if they were absolutely certain one way or the other.

Nachtsider, Subject: Re: THE SANTA ROSA MURDERS ,ARE THEY ZODIAC?? Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:28 pm

Oh, I didn’t point that bit out to refute anything you said, Seagull; I pointed it out because I thought it was weird and contradictory to the DNA testing being done…

AuthUser, Subject: Re: THE SANTA ROSA MURDERS ,ARE THEY ZODIAC?? Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:33 pm

Seagull…

Do we know the names of these 2 guys who died back in the ’80s, who SR LE feel were the killers?

Attaching Bundy to any of these crimes is apparently more difficult than I thought, since there’s no record of him murdering anyone until ’74. Not to say he couldn’t have been in Calif in ’72, but you would think more people could put an actual date on when he was in the state. LE should have been able to place him working (for sure) in a given timeframe. He must have lived somewhere, rented something from someone.

The U.S. Dept. of Justice & the FBI created a document called "Ted Bundy Multiagency Investigative Team Report – 1992". I thought it was on the FBI site, but couldn’t find it. It has a detailed timeline that shows where he was and (sorta) what he was doing at the time. I have the PDF file, but I don’t think I can post it anywhere.

Maybe someone else knows where it’s located on the web?

Auth

Seagull, Subject: Re: THE SANTA ROSA MURDERS ,ARE THEY ZODIAC?? Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:09 pm

Hey Auth! The Bundy multiagency report is on my site. Go to the suspects link and then to Bundy. I have a few pertainent pages posted but the whole report is available for download, gratis. I seem to be the only place on the internet that has it available right now and, man, it has generated lots of hits.

http://www.santarosahitchhikermurders.com

wv171, Subject: Re: THE SANTA ROSA MURDERS ,ARE THEY ZODIAC?? Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:34 pm

Had Edmund Emil Kemper III doing his thing in CA, During Aug 27, 64 to April 20, 1973 ..

Randy Steven Kraft active Sept. 20, 1970 to May 13, 1983.

Leonard Lake I allway’s my self thought he was active way before LE will admit too..

Herbert Mullin was doing his thing around 1972 to 1973.

Gerald Parker was active in 1970’s ( The bedroom basher )

William Suff they got him down as starting in 1974 but this dude was wild and he was a Ca. born and bread..

Randall Woodfield who ended up as The I-5 Bandit or Killer He had atleast 3 arrest before 1974 when Greenbay Packers got him in the 1974 NFL Draft .. He went in 17th round 428 overall pick as a Wide Reciver … Note He was born Dec. 26th 1950 So he was old enough ..

This is just give you a general idea just how many that was out there working near or maybe in the Cal. area during that time period…

I just looked these up waiting on Saturday night Chat… None of these are a must investigate each and everyone No way … This is only Just a general idea what was going on during that time period…

I got under 45 minute’s time period of research in this so it’s sure not a FBI profile or nothing like that..

Who knows this list might help someone in there research…. We work together on this site.. Or try anyway..

bayarea60s, Subject: Re: THE SANTA ROSA MURDERS ,ARE THEY ZODIAC?? Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:36 pm

WV….

I know Dave Carpenter was also out for a time in late 1970, but I think he went quickly back into prison either in late 70- early 71. Many weirdos roaming the state in late 60’s – 70’s, and those are just the ones we know of.

AuthUser, Subject: Re: THE SANTA ROSA MURDERS ,ARE THEY ZODIAC?? Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:48 pm

Hey Auth! The Bundy multiagency report is on my site. Go to the suspects link and then to Bundy. I have a few pertainent pages posted but the whole report is available for download, gratis. I seem to be the only place on the internet that has it available right now and, man, it has generated lots of hits.

http://www.santarosahitchhikermurders.com

Seagull,

Thanks for hosting that document. I’ve already got a copy, but I’m sure others will want to look at it…

Auth

wv171, Subject: Re: THE SANTA ROSA MURDERS ,ARE THEY ZODIAC?? Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:05 pm

Sure thank you bayarea60s,

Cal. sure had there fair share of nut case’s running around during them time’s .. That’s for sure..

I really started that search looking for where Lawrence Sigmund Bittaker and Roy Lewis Norris and there famous Murder Mack was at during that time period…For some reason these crimes reminded me of there handy work last night..

And in the process of researching there time line I ran into the names I posted above in the time line..

Myself I would love to see LE plant a big huge story in media taking some credit from Z..

If still alive I don’t think Z could handle that insult without responding in some way..

Myself I think that is really how LE got BTK back out of his hiding spot after all them year’s ..

, Subject: Re: THE SANTA ROSA MURDERS ,ARE THEY ZODIAC?? Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:36 am

I see absolutely nothing about these crimes that so much as hints at Zodiac being the killer, and would really like to know who suggested a link and why.

That would be Robert Graysmith (Zodiac, pp. 252-254). His reason for even suggesting the link is obvious: Arthur Leigh Allen was living in SR at the time and attended Sonoma State University (my alma mater, btw). I still think Ted Bundy is a good suspect in these murders.

tracers, Subject: Re: THE SANTA ROSA MURDERS ,ARE THEY ZODIAC?? Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:44 am

Yes, there was nothing zodiac-like about these crimes, imo. And, yes, I always thought these could be more of Bundy’s handiwork. But I have not studied the cases as extensively as many others have, so my opinion isn’t really an informed one.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: THE SANTA ROSA MURDERS ,ARE THEY ZODIAC?? Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:43 pm

A newspaper article says police checked Ted Bundy’s credit card records and they showed him buying gas in Washington on the days of most of the Santa Rosa murders, thereby ruling him out for most of them.

, Subject: Re: THE SANTA ROSA MURDERS ,ARE THEY ZODIAC?? Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:04 am

Yeah, I know. I’m curious as to what they actually checked, however… did they look at any receipts and verify if his signature was on them, or did they just check with the credit card company to see when he used them? Bundy was not stupid… it would have been so easy to let a friend use one while he was gone to give the impression he was at home and not in the Bay Area. In fact, though it would have been rough, Bundy could easily have driven the 700+ miles from WA to CA, kill someone, and return in 24 or so hours. I’ve driven from Napa to LA and back in the same day (twice!), and that’s an 800 mile round trip, so, to me, it’s not inconceivable that Bundy might have done the same thing.

, Subject: Re: THE SANTA ROSA MURDERS ,ARE THEY ZODIAC?? Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:23 am

Bundy was quite the maniac, apart from his ruse of using the arm in a sling he would brazenly approach women with no pre planning, as in when he would abduct women from the car parks of a shopping mall or the girl from a car park where she had been inside a building watching a play, he did not scout the areas per se he would just go and try to abduct, no disguise. At Lake Sammamish he abducted and held hostage two women whilst he wandered around the area which was extremely crowded with his arm in a sling approaching numerous women calling himself Ted, brazen and insane, no disguise.

When he was caught he had in his car brochures from the hotels he was staying at and also his credit card receipts also proved he was in those areas, I personally don’t think he gave much thought to pretending he was elsewhere or disguising himself, when he was committing crimes he would mostly prowl the streets with his ‘rape kit’ at the ready. In effect if his credit card receipts showed he was at a certain place then he most likely was. He mostly was friends with women and most of them were aquaintances , no real male friends to speak of. He was good at escaping the cops, but not so bothered about covering his tracks to be honest.

bayarea60s, Subject: Ed Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:38 am

Bundy was known to travel long distances in a day. I know for a fact that sometime in early 70’s, I can probably find the actual date, or pretty close to it, that Bundy was at the Raven Theater in Healdsburg, Ca. (Sonoma County). A friend of mine and her sister were approached by this good looking guy in a VW bug, and he asked them for directions which they gave him. but he told them he was dyslectic, I think it was, and wasn’t good at retaining that kind of info. He asked if they wouldn’t mind riding with him over there and then he’d take them wherever they needed to go. Their mom had just pulled up and they told him no they had to go.
When the Bundy story hit the airwaves they immediately recognized him and called authorities to tell them of their encounter. This was long before it was ever mentioned that he spent time in Sonoma County….

bayarea60s, Subject: Solar Fri Jul 30, 2010 4:11 am

In the early 90’s my younger brother lived up in Seattle Area (Burien). His next door neighbor was a lady who lived alone. My bro. and his wife helped her out whenever she needed anything. We were out front in his yard and his neighbor came over and asked my brother if he wouldn’t mind looking at some plumbing problem she was having. So i go over there with him and I’m speaking with her, nice lady came off as a little strange, but very nice. My bro. hadn’t told me her story. Her living room had pics of her daughter all over the place. I was thinking at the time, is she a model, or in the movies, absolutely beautiful young lady. She then asked me if I wanted to see her daughter’s bedroom. I then knew something was really weird. I look over and my brother is standing in the kitchen doorway looking at me with a look of "I’m sorry" all over his face. So I go with her to her daughter’s bedroom and it looked like a shrine, absolutely everything in it’s place.
We come back into the living room and then she says, "Yeah well then my daughter was murdered". I was stunned to say the least. I told her how sorry I was, that I didn’t know, and she says"that Ted Bundy killed my baby." Her daughter was either the first, or one of the fist known Bundy victims. I’m not one given in to tears very easily, but it was all I could do to hold back from immediately crying, I didn’t, but I had never faced anything in that realm. One of the saddest things I’ve ever seen.
It took my brother another 1/2 hour or so to fix the problem, and there we sat in her living room and her telling me all about her daughter, she had raised her all by herself, she was her whole life, I don’t recall what happened to the father, but he wasn’t around apparently after the girl was born. She would go from the past to the present in mid sentence. This was 20 years after the fact.

, Subject: Re: THE SANTA ROSA MURDERS ,ARE THEY ZODIAC?? Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:45 am

Bundy was known to travel long distances in a day. I know for a fact that sometime in early 70’s, I can probably find the actual date, or pretty close to it, that Bundy was at the Raven Theater in Healdsburg, Ca. (Sonoma County). A friend of mine and her sister were approached by this good looking guy in a VW bug, and he asked them for directions which they gave him. but he told them he was dyslectic, I think it was, and wasn’t good at retaining that kind of info. He asked if they wouldn’t mind riding with him over there and then he’d take them wherever they needed to go. Their mom had just pulled up and they told him no they had to go.
When the Bundy story hit the airwaves they immediately recognized him and called authorities to tell them of their encounter. This was long before it was ever mentioned that he spent time in Sonoma County….

Hey, didn’t we get an email or something from you after that Killer’s Club story appeared in the Bohemian in January 2005???

bayarea60s, Subject: Ed Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:38 pm

Not from me…I haven’t been on board that long, but I’ll look up the story…

bayarea60s, Subject: Ed…Killer’s Club.. Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:51 pm

I’ve seen that Killer’s Club Article before (I didn’t see any reference to Bundy there)…But I recognized those pics of you, Tom & Angie. And ALA with the 2 gals. I couldn’t find anything relevant at Bohemian.com.

I told our friend Angie (the one who had the Bundy encounter) that somewhere I had seen reference to her and her sister’s story on-line, must have been in some Bundy Site somewhere? I don’t know. I’ve been looking for it off and on, I’d like to send to her if I ever find it. She wasn’t surprised cause the police did come out and take their statements.

I believe I only shared that story once on Tom’s Site as I recall….

, Subject: Re: THE SANTA ROSA MURDERS ,ARE THEY ZODIAC?? Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:31 pm

Yep, you’re the one then.

bayarea60s, Subject: Ed? Sat Jul 31, 2010 5:39 am

Again if this took place around 2005, then it wasn’t I. I didn’t know of the Killer’s Club article then, or even about TV’s site then.

, Subject: Re: THE SANTA ROSA MURDERS ,ARE THEY ZODIAC?? Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:03 am

Well, then it’s someone else who knows (or knew) your friend and her sister, because that’s the same story we were told.

bayarea60s, Subject: Ed Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:21 am

Once again, they reported their encounter with the police…So it was a matter of public record…As I stated I read it on-some site, I haven’t been able to find it again. If I do I’ll forward it to Angie and her sister…I may have shared their encounter on Tom’s site, but again not in 2005. So if you read it then you saw the same thing I did. It must be in a Bundy site….