Snooter I believe I agree with you. While I do believe the Zodiac spent time in the area (more than just a passerby – someone who did live in the area at some point) I do believe it’s possible that he wasn’t living in the state when he committed the crimes. Washington State is a 12 hour drive. Oregon is between a 5 and 12 hour drive. Idaho and Utah are both roughly 12 hour drives. 12 hours is not a huge amount of time. He could be in the area in as much time as it takes someone to go to work and go home. Why can’t he make that drive? Not to mention crimes occur on a weekend. Letters are months apart except for the November letters that are back to back (Sunday and Monday). Don’t know about Kansas but yeah I do think it’s entirely possible.

Soze

Snooter I believe I agree with you. While I do believe the Zodiac spent time in the area (more than just a passerby – someone who did live in the area at some point) I do believe it’s possible that he wasn’t living in the state when he committed the crimes. Washington State is a 12 hour drive. Oregon is between a 5 and 12 hour drive. Idaho and Utah are both roughly 12 hour drives. 12 hours is not a huge amount of time. He could be in the area in as much time as it takes someone to go to work and go home. Why can’t he make that drive? Not to mention crimes occur on a weekend. Letters are months apart except for the November letters that are back to back (Sunday and Monday). Don’t know about Kansas but yeah I do think it’s entirely possible.

Soze

The weekend thingy is interesting..z may have held a true 40 hour work week or more likely he knew those areas of his crime would have been frequented later in the day than during work week…berryessa is the one time attack occured earlier…i think he stalked out the remote areas of berryessa for some time and found it required a daytime crime – fairly remote and nobody around late at night…for that reason i think he wore the hood..i also find it weird z did not harrass hartnel/mageau for years after..i would like to know if either had weird as f phone calls or correspondence in the last 20 years….but some argue it was in fact not a z crime…
what bothers me most at this time is we are probably in a worse situation solving this than 20 years ago….with whats been found in last 15 years we need to re-interview some of the better known suspects..but they are gone now…one thing i am convinced of is none of the victims families have any idea who is responsible and this is why i do not think z is a local – how much time has been spent looking thru local high school yearbooks..include 3 saturday crimes and 1 friday and i think the z drove home on sunday..i dont believe any connection exists between z and the victims either…..all random and when z had the opportunity to commit his game plan he did so…its going to take a family member at this point to solve this and its probably not going to be any of the top tier suspects…

Snooter I believe I agree with you. While I do believe the Zodiac spent time in the area (more than just a passerby – someone who did live in the area at some point) I do believe it’s possible that he wasn’t living in the state when he committed the crimes. Washington State is a 12 hour drive. Oregon is between a 5 and 12 hour drive. Idaho and Utah are both roughly 12 hour drives. 12 hours is not a huge amount of time. He could be in the area in as much time as it takes someone to go to work and go home. Why can’t he make that drive? Not to mention crimes occur on a weekend. Letters are months apart except for the November letters that are back to back (Sunday and Monday). Don’t know about Kansas but yeah I do think it’s entirely possible.

Soze

The weekend thingy is interesting..z may have held a true 40 hour work week or more likely he knew those areas of his crime would have been frequented later in the day than during work week…berryessa is the one time attack occured earlier…i think he stalked out the remote areas of berryessa for some time and found it required a daytime crime – fairly remote and nobody around late at night…for that reason i think he wore the hood..i also find it weird z did not harrass hartnel/mageau for years after..i would like to know if either had weird as f phone calls or correspondence in the last 20 years….but some argue it was in fact not a z crime…
what bothers me most at this time is we are probably in a worse situation solving this than 20 years ago….with whats been found in last 15 years we need to re-interview some of the better known suspects..but they are gone now…one thing i am convinced of is none of the victims families have any idea who is responsible and this is why i do not think z is a local – how much time has been spent looking thru local high school yearbooks..include 3 saturday crimes and 1 friday and i think the z drove home on sunday..i dont believe any connection exists between z and the victims either…..all random and when z had the opportunity to commit his game plan he did so…its going to take a family member at this point to solve this and its probably not going to be any of the top tier suspects…

Pretty much everything you say in this post is what I agree with and truly believe. Whether he ever resided in Vallejo, SF etc. at some point, I really feel that he did not reside directly in Vallejo at the time at least. For me, working in Vallejo is good enough for me regarding any geographical profiling. At the time, he could have resided further North on the 29 in American Canyon/Napa areas. Could’ve been Novato area. Could’ve been Martinez/Concord. Back then, there were millions of people living in these area combined.

Evidence seems to point to the fact that he either worked as, or something in the industry of or close with, the Merchant Marines. That is, if we are to take the evidence (purpose of this thread) of the sending of the tickets to an MM employee, as well as the possibility that Tarbox was telling the truth, then that is even stronger evidence he himself was a MM or related. If he had been a stalker up close and personal, then someone in the family would have noticed or someone like a co-worker would have known who he might have been. I feel he was discreet and probably did things like dine at Terry’s/IHOP and new of Darlene, but he never engaged and he only observed from afar. He could have done this, as well as, simply stalked the crime scenes.

Other notes: I highly doubt the odd ball at the painting party was Z as that individual should have been IDed back then, questioned, cleared or implicated. There were enough weirdos in this state back then, could have been countless others then Z. Going through yearbooks is pointless to me, unless you have a very good suspicion of something discovered, as Z was obviously enough older that he did not go to school directly with these victims; every yearbook has at least 10 to 20 individuals that look like Z and fits the profile and countless amounts of these people also became MM’s Longshoreman, you name it. Try going through all the Air Force/Navy/MM yearbooks and you will find 10 on every page.

So anyway, again my apologies to you Snooter if I came across the wrong way in the initial posts.

Here is a picture from the window at 16 Spruce st ,looking out onto JK Playground.

You are right, the dogs would have found him in the park if he was hiding there.

Thank you, that is what one of the investigating officers said and that is why I said that. I haven’t said too much about the idea of Zodiac leaving by car, other than he couldn’t have seen what he described had he left by car.
I would think that someone would have heard a car leaving? Like the different witnesses in Riverside who heard a car leave about 10:30 pm. They even described how the car sounded another heard a motorcycle.

No one reported hearing a car leave that PH area.

The Stine murder was treated as a cab robbery gone bad because they didn’t know until they got the shirt piece mailed in. He got to sit and watch and have a laugh. Observing from a window in close proximity to the playground. Maybe he knew the place was empty.

The Stine murder was treated as a cab robbery gone bad because they didn’t know until they got the shirt piece mailed in. He got to sit and watch and have a laugh. Observing from a window in close proximity to the playground. Maybe he knew the place was empty.

That is what I think he did. What safer way to do that , than from inside one of those mansions?

The streets that surround the house the letter was mailed to seem to be ALICE DR, DAVID CT,ECHO SUMMIT RD. Any of these streets of interest as related to the Z case? My theory would be that Z may live in one of these houses if he really sent those tickets, and may want to watch the police question the neighbors. Again, I am skeptical that Owen could see the doorstep from his home, although it is less than a quarter mile and in a straight line

Morf, I looked at every person living on Roleen Dr in 1973 and 74 to see if any suspect name lived there or someone who may have worked at Mare Island. I also looked to see where Gerald lived before Roleen Dr.

In 1969 they lived at 450 Gonzaga Ave. Gerald was working as an electric at Mare Island at that time also. In 1969 they had a neighbor with the initials RH ( As you know I believe Zodiac’s initials are RH )His name was Richard Hampton at 432 Gonzaga., no job listed.

The address at 1143 Roleen Dr. was a Roger Williams no job no phone. he was new to that home in 1973. At 1185 Roleen Dr. was Raymond Holcomb.

1402 Roleen Dr was Joseph Stopponi, he was an "electrician" at Mare Island.

1408 Richard Erickson , was a chef at "Terry’s waffle shop".

1414 Charles Casten who was a nuclear inspector at Mare Island.

Next door to Gerald was John Hickey , who worked at "Humble Oil ". ( I wrote only the people who stood out )

I have a list of last names that I am looking at in connection to my two suspects, these names came from cars my suspects were seen driving. One of the names is in the Gentry family, I found one Gentry at 1316 Roleen Dr no job listed and he was new to that address in 1974.

It is a long process to look up every name and what they did for a living. When I feel up to doing more of that, I plan to check everyone on Alice Dr. I have their names but not their occupations.
I have one Robert Hernandez who I have been looking at sense the 1990’s , who lived on Sheri Court. You can see 1423 Roleen Dr from Shari Ct. Gerald Tagert’s home was the first one on the corner.
In 1990 when I went to check out the RH home , I saw writing on a large white wall as I left Sheri Ct.
It was on Mini Dr, the words were "Psycho is back" it was signed with a Zodiac logo. That was the area of the Tagert’s.

…..the idea of z not running thru that park is fairly low in my opinion…i do not think z lived any where near the area either…the park seems to me the logical route out of the area z would have taken….z probably rode a honda cause "you meet the nicest people on a honda"…nobody would have heard a honda bike leave…they were extremly quiet…if z drove in there he left his car 3 blocks over…too many variable but if you think z ran into a house you have to give some credence to X…

I don’t think that Zodiac lived in SF for any length of time, I believe his permanent residence was Vallejo. But I do think he would rent a room for a few days in SF if he had a job there for a few days. There were two homes on Jackson st that were under construction at that time. He could have stayed inside one of those homes and heard all of the commotion on the park. From the statements and clues that Zodiac and Darlene and K Johns made , it sounds to me like Zodiac was a construction worker, possibly worked with concrete?

Its just a strong gut feeling I had when I stood at that window , how perfect that view was of the playground. That was why I went to the bottom floor to see if there was in fact a door leading to the park and there was.

I know what a Honda sounds like, they weren’t as loud as a Harley, but they weren’t so quite that you wouldn’t hear it on a quite street in PH.

I am not a KQ fan, I don’t think he had enough time to wash the blood off, change his clothes, get the dog put the leash on and be where he was seen in such a short amount of time. KQ was not a crazy person, he had a very good reputation and was a close friend of a dear friend of mine. KQ had a slight accent, Zodiac did not.

Everyone has a right to believe what they want to, all I am doing is giving information to take into consideration. I have read pretty much every Z book, read every police and FBI report. Spoken to people who knew the victims and talked to many of the detectives. I take this case personally, it is not something I do to pass time. I want this killer caught and will be in the court room when he is found guilty.

I don’t think that Zodiac lived in SF for any length of time, I believe his permanent residence was Vallejo. But I do think he would rent a room for a few days in SF if he had a job there for a few days. There were two homes on Jackson st that were under construction at that time. He could have stayed inside one of those homes and heard all of the commotion on the park. From the statements and clues that Zodiac and Darlene and K Johns made , it sounds to me like Zodiac was a construction worker, possibly worked with concrete?

Its just a strong gut feeling I had when I stood at that window , how perfect that view was of the playground. That was why I went to the bottom floor to see if there was in fact a door leading to the park and there was.

I know what a Honda sounds like, they weren’t as loud as a Harley, but they weren’t so quite that you wouldn’t hear it on a quite street in PH.

I am not a KQ fan, I don’t think he had enough time to wash the blood off, change his clothes, get the dog put the leash on and be where he was seen in such a short amount of time. KQ was not a crazy person, he had a very good reputation and was a close friend of a dear friend of mine. KQ had a slight accent, Zodiac did not.

Everyone has a right to believe what they want to, all I am doing is giving information to take into consideration. I have read pretty much every Z book, read every police and FBI report. Spoken to people who knew the victims and talked to many of the detectives. I take this case personally, it is not something I do to pass time. I want this killer caught and will be in the court room when he is found guilty.

I agree with you 100%. KQ lived there and for him to be out and about walking is dog in front of his house is absolutely not suspicious. I never thought for a moment a man in front of his own residence is any cause for suspicion.

The streets that surround the house the letter was mailed to seem to be ALICE DR, DAVID CT,ECHO SUMMIT RD. Any of these streets of interest as related to the Z case? My theory would be that Z may live in one of these houses if he really sent those tickets, and may want to watch the police question the neighbors. Again, I am skeptical that Owen could see the doorstep from his home, although it is less than a quarter mile and in a straight line

Morf, I looked at every person living on Roleen Dr in 1973 and 74 to see if any suspect name lived there or someone who may have worked at Mare Island. I also looked to see where Gerald lived before Roleen Dr.

In 1969 they lived at 450 Gonzaga Ave. Gerald was working as an electric at Mare Island at that time also. In 1969 they had a neighbor with the initials RH ( As you know I believe Zodiac’s initials are RH )His name was Richard Hampton at 432 Gonzaga., no job listed.

The address at 1143 Roleen Dr. was a Roger Williams no job no phone. he was new to that home in 1973. At 1185 Roleen Dr. was Raymond Holcomb.

1402 Roleen Dr was Joseph Stopponi, he was an "electrician" at Mare Island.

1408 Richard Erickson , was a chef at "Terry’s waffle shop".

1414 Charles Casten who was a nuclear inspector at Mare Island.

Next door to Gerald was John Hickey , who worked at "Humble Oil ". ( I wrote only the people who stood out )

I have a list of last names that I am looking at in connection to my two suspects, these names came from cars my suspects were seen driving. One of the names is in the Gentry family, I found one Gentry at 1316 Roleen Dr no job listed and he was new to that address in 1974.

It is a long process to look up every name and what they did for a living. When I feel up to doing more of that, I plan to check everyone on Alice Dr. I have their names but not their occupations.
I have one Robert Hernandez who I have been looking at sense the 1990’s , who lived on Sheri Court. You can see 1423 Roleen Dr from Shari Ct. Gerald Tagert’s home was the first one on the corner.
In 1990 when I went to check out the RH home , I saw writing on a large white wall as I left Sheri Ct.
It was on Mini Dr, the words were "Psycho is back" it was signed with a Zodiac logo. That was the area of the Tagert’s.

Can you refresh my memory as to why looking into the years 73 and 74?

Sandy and Soze??

Can we start over just on the particular topic of:

How is Gerald Taggert related to the Lillienthal’s and the Hass family? And Sandy, was this connection only made because of the whole Felclin connection of whom was actually at a different address.

I’d like a recap this because of have a couple of other researchers (both aspiring amateur geologists) who have been digging up all kinds of random stuff.

The streets that surround the house the letter was mailed to seem to be ALICE DR, DAVID CT,ECHO SUMMIT RD. Any of these streets of interest as related to the Z case? My theory would be that Z may live in one of these houses if he really sent those tickets, and may want to watch the police question the neighbors. Again, I am skeptical that Owen could see the doorstep from his home, although it is less than a quarter mile and in a straight line

Morf, I looked at every person living on Roleen Dr in 1973 and 74 to see if any suspect name lived there or someone who may have worked at Mare Island. I also looked to see where Gerald lived before Roleen Dr.

In 1969 they lived at 450 Gonzaga Ave. Gerald was working as an electric at Mare Island at that time also. In 1969 they had a neighbor with the initials RH ( As you know I believe Zodiac’s initials are RH )His name was Richard Hampton at 432 Gonzaga., no job listed.

The address at 1143 Roleen Dr. was a Roger Williams no job no phone. he was new to that home in 1973. At 1185 Roleen Dr. was Raymond Holcomb.

1402 Roleen Dr was Joseph Stopponi, he was an "electrician" at Mare Island.

1408 Richard Erickson , was a chef at "Terry’s waffle shop".

1414 Charles Casten who was a nuclear inspector at Mare Island.

Next door to Gerald was John Hickey , who worked at "Humble Oil ". ( I wrote only the people who stood out )

I have a list of last names that I am looking at in connection to my two suspects, these names came from cars my suspects were seen driving. One of the names is in the Gentry family, I found one Gentry at 1316 Roleen Dr no job listed and he was new to that address in 1974.

It is a long process to look up every name and what they did for a living. When I feel up to doing more of that, I plan to check everyone on Alice Dr. I have their names but not their occupations.
I have one Robert Hernandez who I have been looking at sense the 1990’s , who lived on Sheri Court. You can see 1423 Roleen Dr from Shari Ct. Gerald Tagert’s home was the first one on the corner.
In 1990 when I went to check out the RH home , I saw writing on a large white wall as I left Sheri Ct.
It was on Mini Dr, the words were "Psycho is back" it was signed with a Zodiac logo. That was the area of the Tagert’s.

Can you refresh my memory as to why looking into the years 73 and 74?

Tommy T, I wasn’t at the library or I would have looked at not only 69/70 book but 71, 72. I would look to see who moved in or out before and after 1970. I saw the 1969/70 book , I am pretty sure most of the names I have listed were the 69/70 book, then found the yrs 73 /74 to see any changes. I believe that area was a new subdivision in 1970. Sheri Ct was new in 1969, lots of new homes being built in Vallejo and Napa in the late 60’s.