If LE doesn’t consider the DNA and prints as most likely being from the Zodiac, does that mean that they still consider ALA to be a viable Z suspect? It seems that they considered him the "best" suspect prior to being ruled out by those things, so if those things do not rule one out, doesn’t that mean we should consider him back in at the top? It also seems that most people in the Z community do not consider him as a viable suspect, but why not if not for the DNA and prints?

The detectives I talked to did not consider Allen a viable suspect.

I did NOT talk to anyone from Vallejo so maybe they feel differently. The search warrants against Allen were obtained even after the non-match on prints.

IMO Allen is ruled out by being a total non-match on handwriting as determined by Morrill and others, by weighing much more than the best descriptions (Fouke said Allen was 100 pounds heavier than the man he saw, and he would be 80 pounds heavier than the Mageau and Johns estimate of weight), a non-match on MO as Allen did sexual crimes against children with no violence while Zodiac did violent crimes against adults with no explicit sexual element, because Allen looked nothing like the SF sketch and for other reasons.

I’d have to agree with that comment about ruling Arthur Allen out. His weight not being consistant with description’s and boot print depth is one thing, but i’ve always thought Allen’s Male Genetic Baldness was a bit of a giveaway. Weather we use Hartnell’s Lake Berryessa description of Brown wavy hair that came down over his forehead, or Presidio Heights witnesses of crew cut hair, blonde/light brown/redish tint doesn’t matter really, none of these description’s are ‘Male, 6 ft, bald head. Now I suppose some may argue that Zodiac could have been sporting a wig under his black hood at Berryessa, although i don’t see why someone would decide to use a wig to disguise themselves if they planned on wearing a box shaped hood that completely covered their head. Also, the crew cut hair of Presidio Heights may have been a toupee/wig. But again, this seem’s unlikely because Officer Fouke states that the man’s hair that he saw was possibly greying in rear.

AK i wasn’t disagreeing with you, as i said the scanerio i laid out above would only be fitting IF they obtained the DNA profile from saliva that they obtained directly from the sticky back of the stamp. If that isn’t how it was obtained, then my scanerio become’s flawed & irrelevant.

Thanks Mike for your response on the Hair recovered from under the stamp. So do we know if mtDNA is on file from this hair?
With regards to the partial DNA, I believe if it is only partial in cannot be of use in the database. In the State of California, all
Felons now have their DNA taken and entered into our CODIS system. I also was told by a Napa LE Official that they need permission, or cause
to obtain a random Felon’s DNA results.
Is it possible for the Zodiac Killer to have sophisticated knowledge of police procedure, including
evidence gathering? Yes. Could Zodiac have known at least about the testing of Saliva? Yes. In which case, you have a suspect who was
exposed to forensics. A clue. Could Zodiac be intelligent enough to have learned about the discovery of DNA early on? Yes. Another clue.
An intelligent science lover. A cop or a wanna be cop, rejected by Law Enforcement, I’m sure due to his personality, and forever hating
the "F****** Pigs",Police, needing to punish them. Another clue. Someone with a HUGE ego. Another clue.

Hi-

As far as I know the hair was never analyzed for mtDNA because the sample is too small and they only have ONE chance to extract material from it. If the technology does not yield a result, the sample is gone forever.

Mike

I have read in this thread that DOJ had the 4 marker DNA profile since 2007? Odd, in Feb 2011, CA DOJ came from San Francisco to Sacramento
to interview me regarding Peter Plante as a Zodiac suspect. There were two agents that showed up and other suspect people in the parking lot
and around the meeting place. At that time our oldest son was already a Felon in CA with his DNA in CODIS, and this is why I reached out to them
to see if the DNA was a match. After they interviewed me they claimed they did not have access to the Zodiac DNA, that SFPD only had it. Now I am
wondering if they lied to me. There must have been a match on the 4 markers or why would they have put all that energy into interviewing me.
4 markers is not enough to identify anyone conclusively. But why send people and money to see me about Peter? How many people contact law enforcement
about a Zodiac suspect every week? Lots. How many people have had the CA DOJ come to see them regarding their suspect? How many white men living in
CA share 4 DNA markers? that could be a large number?

I have read in this thread that DOJ had the 4 marker DNA profile since 2007? Odd, in Feb 2011, CA DOJ came from San Francisco to Sacramento
to interview me regarding Peter Plante as a Zodiac suspect. There were two agents that showed up and other suspect people in the parking lot
and around the meeting place. At that time our oldest son was already a Felon in CA with his DNA in CODIS, and this is why I reached out to them
to see if the DNA was a match. After they interviewed me they claimed they did not have access to the Zodiac DNA, that SFPD only had it. Now I am
wondering if they lied to me. There must have been a match on the 4 markers or why would they have put all that energy into interviewing me.
4 markers is not enough to identify anyone conclusively. But why send people and money to see me about Peter? How many people contact law enforcement
about a Zodiac suspect every week? Lots. How many people have had the CA DOJ come to see them regarding their suspect? How many white men living in
CA share 4 DNA markers? that could be a large number?

Maybe they didn’t have a match in regards to Zodiac’s DNA, but possibly to another case. ??

DOJ claimed they did not have access to the SFPD DNA.

DOJ claimed they did not have access to the SFPD DNA.

Thats what is wrong with this case, DOJ was supposed to be the ‘clearing house’ for ALL of the Z stuff and consolidate everything,and that didnt happen. I know that police as of 2013, are trying to form a team of some sort that will pool all of their evidence, suspects, etc.

So what is the consensus? Did CA DOJ have the SFPD partial DNA profile by 2007 or not? I have been lied to before, I can take it…

Hi-

Just a guess but maybe SFPD did not make the DNA available to DOJ because they had reservations about it. I know from speaking to Ray N. that the lab apparently did yet another round of amylase testing in 2002 and once again concluded that there was so little amylase that it did not appear that the letters had been licked. Plus they combined samples to get the 2002 DNA, so maybe they were not certain who it came from, which would have been a logical conclusion. That DNA seems to have been a "made for TV elimination only" sample.

Mike

I think any suspects should be compared to any and all prints on file in the zodiac case

Finding prints and finding prints of sufficient clarity to find an 8-10 point match are very different things! The Zodiac prints were too blurry for a clean match. I don’t think they can be compared to make a definitive match. At best, they might exclude a suspect.

Here is the real problem, other than the cab, we really don’t know that Zodiac touched anything. With the cab, his prints can be superimposed over the prints of prior passengers or anyone who was at the Stine murder scene. There is no possibility for touch DNA in the Zodiac case. The best DNA comes from blood or semen and he didn’t leave either at crime scenes. Saliva also has lots of DNA present, but he evidently didn’t lick his stamps or envelopes. This case is more like Son of Sam. You need a witness seeing Zodiac leave a crime scene or something that identifies his vehicle (like Berkowitz getting a ticket at a crime scene). Zodiac just didn’t leave that kind of evidence. Even if Zelms and Fouke encountered Zodiac on Jackson Street, unless he had a bulge in his jacket indicating a gun or blood on his clothes or hands, I doubt they could have detained him. If they detained him without probable cause, even if he were found with a gun and Stine’s shirt, all that would be inadmissible due to a 4th Amendment violation. The way the crimes were committed, I don’t see how Z gets caught.

Ok here’s an obvious question…

The police allege that they recovered a partial print (in blood) from Paul Stine’s Cab. The Question i have is, has this print (albeit partial) been entered into the Nationwide AFIS (Automated Fingerprint Identification System)?

I asked this same question regarding the alleged Partial DNA profile that LE claim was recovered from one of Zodiac’s letters. I wondered if that Partial DNA profile was entered into the National DNA Data Base because Zodiac himself need not be on file, if a close relative was, the system would recognise that. But recently it’s been stated by many people that no such DNA profile exists now. I have heard two versions of this DNA story, the first is that there is no DNA profile available now because there simply never was DNA discovered on any letter (even though LE publically stated that they had used this, along with the print evidence, to compare to Arthur Allen with Negative results.) The second version I have heard is that they did once have a Partial DNA sample/profile, but it was destroyed in the process of testing it against Art Allen.

I have no idea which, if any, version of the story is correct. Can anyone state categorically, that one of the above is true and if none are, what the alternative truth is? (And please, with all respect intended, I am not looking for anyones opinion or belief that A or B is true, but rather that facts and how it is you came across these facts/evidence.)

Thanks.

I think I kinda see what your getting at with the DNA, however, i think what you’ll find is that in actual practice, when the DNA is actually run through Codis (the "national" system), is that they are not allowed to do "familial" hits. I believe they HAVE to find an exact match, which is why its considered controversial when law enforcement uses private data bases and don’t identify themselves as law enforcement. Because the Codis algorithm was required to search in this manner by law. That’s why investigators are keen on hitting up "private" data bases, their system IS set up to do the familial hits, in fact, it’s specifically designed for it! With Codis, there must be a reason for your DNA to be in the database more or less, you joined the military, got arrested, donated to "the Doe Network", missing person cases, crime scene evidence, etc. The Codis system itself amazingly doesn’t even keep identifying information about who the DNA belongs to, that information must be decimated after a "hit" is obtained, then shared by the uploading agency in accordance with the laws of that specific state or territory (maybe a warrant is required from a judge) Its easier when they get a hit and they ARE also the uploader, but still has a legal process it goes through.