I remember a retired detective on the Zodiac dvd (special features) saying there were issues with Cheney, like when he showed up too drunk to take a polygraph.
I think there were several issues with Cheney. Hardly the ideal man to put on the stand as a witness for the prosecution, one might say.
And there’s the distinct possibility that Allen was just messing with Cheney. He liked to do that. He seems to have enjoyed his status as a Zodiac suspect – at least to some degree. Allen’s personality makes it much harder to judge the many circumstances that seemingly tie him to the case. He played up some of these circumstances himself, dropping hints for kicks – hints that Graysmith and others lapped up uncritically.
Yet, the counter argument is obvious: Allen’s personality, his penchant for mind games and whatnot, isn’t exactly irreconcilable with him being Zodiac!
Just to add to the Cheney discussion: LE interviewed Cheney – Toschi, Armstrong, Mulanax; they all interviewed the man. And he supposedly came out clean and said that Allen had basically told him that he was Z. If there wasn’t some kind of problem (a pretty big one) with what Cheney said and/or the way in which he said it, then Allen would have been charged back then. Nothing else makes sense.
The problem, as I conjecture, would have been that Cheney wasn’t credible – or at least not very reliable. He didn’t remember exactly when Allen told him these things. He also decided to come forward with his story after it had become known to him that Allen had made "improper advances" towards his daughter.
There may be a huge difference between Graysmith’s version and what actually happened regarding Cheney. He passed a lie detector test? Good, but the question isn’t really whether he believed his own story or not. The question is whether that story is much of anything to begin with, when all is said and done. If Allen fed him a story AFTER the Zodiac killer had become national news, then Allen could conceivably have been messing with Cheney (who doesn’t seem to have been an exceptionally bright guy, to be brutally honest).
Smithy, we are going to have to agree to disagree about GS. I agree that I think he would have done the world a service if he had deeply examined ALL the suspects- that would have been the proper way to go about it. But I don’t think he is a liar.
Sorry but I can’t let that one go.
Here’s a fun drinking game. Do a shot every time that Graysmith lies in just this paragraph and you’ll get wasted.
n an MSNBC interview for the movie, Robert Graysmith responded to criticism that he focused too much on Allen and not enough on the evidence by saying, "Well, if [the killer] leaves a footprint and it’s a Wing walker shoe that they only made 169,000 pairs and they are sold only on naval stations and his father is a naval commander. It’s a size 10½ shoe, you can only get it if you are a dependent or an enlisted person, if he works across the street from the first victim, if he says two days before the first murder, ‘I am going to hunt people, I am going to put a light on the end of my gun, I’m going to taunt the press, I’m going to taunt the police and I’m going to call myself ‘Zodiac’,’ who two days before receives a Zodiac watch, I think at some point when you have a guy who has to be a chemist, who can build electronic bombs, who knows cipher—I don’t know if you want to call any of that evidence, but I think if you wear the same-sized gloves and the same-sized shoe and you have a catalog in your basement that advertises a bomb-disposal outfit that has a square hood, then at some point you have to say, ‘It is probably this guy.’ I am not one of those people. If they catch someone else, that’s not going to bother me, but I’m satisfied it’s him."
Yeah, I agree that he got a bit over his head, especially in interviews after the fact. He kind of mashes stuff together. Obviously ALA didn’t receive the watch 2 days before, but there were friends of his that said he wore WIng Walkers (even tho they weren’t found), his dad WAS a decorated Naval vet, he did major in biology and chemistry- and they found bombs in his basement. I think there is something there with Allen but I wish he had treated everything with a more even hand. He had tunnel vision. But to suggest he is just doing it for cash is a little extreme. If he is doing it for cash, why did most of the detectives agree with him? And lets not forget, if what Don C says is true, Allen is the one. ANd Cheney passed a lie detector test. AND, before he died, they were serving him with another search warrant. Surely the decades of focus on ALA was not all invented by Graysmith. Compared to someone like Gaikowsi, or ANY of the other suspects I have looked at, he has way more on his side. And yes, its circumstantial- but so is ALL the other evidence against anyone else!
Sorry for the digress off topic, I heard from one of the the so-called experts- the vice president of the American Handwriting Analysis group, and she said that "she wasn’t really sure". Thanks experts!
Is that true what Greysmith said about the wingwalkers only being sold at naval stations? "]it’s a Wing walker shoe that they only made 169,000 pairs and they are sold only on naval stations "
I remember a retired detective on the Zodiac dvd (special features) saying there were issues with Cheney, like when he showed up too drunk to take a polygraph.
Yeah, that was Bawart. He said he didn’t like him for some reason. And I think Norman Boudreau said the same thing.
He really is the pivot here. Its tough to take one man’s word, because that is what you would have to do.
And I do detect a hint of sort of "playing up" to the subject- I don’t really believe that stuff he said about licking the stamps and the parrafin ball Leigh had, as if he was trying to get his fingerprints. I detected a bit of "yarning" in there.
He DID pass a polygraph tho. But so did Leigh! Both of em can’t be telling the truth.
Just to add to the Cheney discussion: LE interviewed Cheney – Toschi, Armstrong, Mulanax; they all interviewed the man. And he supposedly came out clean and said that Allen had basically told him that he was Z. If there wasn’t some kind of problem (a pretty big one) with what Cheney said and/or the way in which he said it, then Allen would have been charged back then. Nothing else makes sense.
The problem, as I conjecture, would have been that Cheney wasn’t credible – or at least not very reliable. He didn’t remember exactly when Allen told him these things. He also decided to come forward with his story after it had become known to him that Allen had made "improper advances" towards his daughter.
There may be a huge difference between Graysmith’s version and what actually happened regarding Cheney. He passed a lie detector test? Good, but the question isn’t really whether he believed his own story or not. The question is whether that story is much of anything to begin with, when all is said and done. If Allen fed him a story AFTER the Zodiac killer had become national news, then Allen could conceivably have been messing with Cheney (who doesn’t seem to have been an exceptionally bright guy, to be brutally honest).
I am not sure if they could have nailed him just on Cheney’s word. Obviously if they could, they would have. I think they were looking for the smoking gun, to use an overused phrase!
Tho from what I have read, the incident with Cheney’s daughter happened in ’65? I could be wrong. Thats’ a hell of a long time to wait for revenge, and he didn’t seem too bothered by it at the time, tho he could have heard about Leigh’s later troubles with children and cooked something up to get revenge.
The thing about Cheney is that he is an engineer, and I have alot of friends who are either engineers or total nerds. And those guys and gals can be very cerebral, and can make some people uncomfortable at times. The sort of nerdy, bookish, awkward type. He is DEFINITELY not a dummy. I am in my third year studying engineering myself and it takes a certain type. It is NOT easy. So I think he is a very smart man, just possibly awkward.
It would be one thing if he wasn’t backed up by Don Allen, Leigh’s own brother, Sandy Panzarella, and Don’s wife as well. There seems to be quite a few corroborations to the story. Its hard to believe all those folk were lying, but its possible.
Is that true what Greysmith said about the wingwalkers only being sold at naval stations? "it’s a Wing walker shoe that they only made 169,000 pairs and they are sold only on naval stations "
Yes, they don’t seem to have been widely available. Having said that, I don’t think that is a very strong clue when you are talking about murders that happened in the Bay Area- how many thousands upon thousands of folk wore those shoes? And what about navy surplus? What about someone buying them at a thrift store?
It sort of annoys me in the film, how in the interrogation scene, they focus on Leigh’s shoes. He was NOT wearing Wingwalkers for that interview. Wingwalkers were never found, tho he did have several hideyholes. Its just tough to use that as a really useful clue. Its like living on the moon and finding moondust on someone’s shoes. Great! Can’t really call that a conclusive clue. So he wore shoes. Size ten and a half. You gotta think- no matter how strong some things against Allen are- that that is a terribly common shoe size. Its not like it was size 13 and 3 quarters or something.
Is that true what Greysmith said about the wingwalkers only being sold at naval stations? "]it’s a Wing walker shoe that they only made 169,000 pairs and they are sold only on naval stations "
According to this report at Tom’s there was over one million of them. So yeah, maybe one hundred and sixy nine K were sent to northern California, but that’s nowhere near being the only ones that were made.
http://www.zodiackiller.com/SR10.html
Anyway, this is way Off topic. We don’t need to discuss Graysmith and Cheney and Allen. I just wanted to point out that Graysmith is not the most reliable source.
TMM: I have some points…or half points, at least. But duckking’s right, this thread should be about handwriting, so I will post in an Allen thread (you can join me there if you’re interested).
TMM: I have some points…or half points, at least. But duckking’s right, this thread should be about handwriting, so I will post in an Allen thread (you can join me there if you’re interested).
sure!!!!
