vasa croe-

While this is an interesting find, even if you have found every single cipher symbol that Zodiac ever used in these "brand books" – and I’m not sure if you have or have not – it still does not constitute any sort of proof that Z used these books.

We know – for certain – that the 408 cipher used symbols (as a homophonic cipher requires) and we know that the Harden’s solution is correct. There are many computer programs now that solve the 408, including my own ZKDecrypto, and they all reach the same solution. Without using any "cattle brands" or even any research into the symbols themselves whatsoever.

There are probably a near infinite number of symbols that someone could draw, or make up – look at the characters in the Chinese language – but those that Z used were really rather simple. Circles, triangles, squares, filled, half-filled, dotted, etc. They aren’t hard to just "make up." And the cattle brands are very much the same thing – made up symbols.

It’s all good and well that you have this theory, but I don’t find it especially compelling. But it’s not my job to prove it wrong, in any case. I just don’t think that you have proven it to be correct.

-glurk

vasa croe-

While this is an interesting find, even if you have found every single cipher symbol that Zodiac ever used in these "brand books" – and I’m not sure if you have or have not – it still does not constitute any sort of proof that Z used these books.

We know – for certain – that the 408 cipher used symbols (as a homophonic cipher requires) and we know that the Harden’s solution is correct. There are many computer programs now that solve the 408, including my own ZKDecrypto, and they all reach the same solution. Without using any "cattle brands" or even any research into the symbols themselves whatsoever.

There are probably a near infinite number of symbols that someone could draw, or make up – look at the characters in the Chinese language – but those that Z used were really rather simple. Circles, triangles, squares, filled, half-filled, dotted, etc. They aren’t hard to just "make up." And the cattle brands are very much the same thing – made up symbols.

It’s all good and well that you have this theory, but I don’t find it especially compelling. But it’s not my job to prove it wrong, in any case. I just don’t think that you have proven it to be correct.

-glurk

Guessing you haven’t checked any brands out. So your supposition is that Z made these characters up? And no, each of the brands typically DORS have meaning. Many times it is the original livestock owners initials. The fact that all of his symbols are brands seems like a fairly significant connection to me, but hey…i am just a new guy compared to folks like you with years of knowing who Z is right?

This is what I love about this case….seems all the older researchers are stuck in some rut of having to do things a certain way. It lends itself to fresh eyes actually coming up with something new.

Vesa, this isn’t about "older researchers" knowing more than you. This is about proving your idea beyond a reasonable doubt. To do so requires ruling out alternative reasonable explanations. Sure, Z may have used brand books for his symbols. But you have not definitively ruled out the reasonable explanation that he made up the symbols and they happen to resemble a few of the numerous pre-existing cattle brand symbols.

Please don’t react with personal attacks when people on this forum present reasonable alternative explanations. It does not do anything to support your idea.

Vesa, this isn’t about "older researchers" knowing more than you. This is about proving your idea beyond a reasonable doubt. To do so requires ruling out alternative reasonable explanations. Sure, Z may have used brand books for his symbols. But you have not definitively ruled out the reasonable explanation that he made up the symbols and they happen to resemble a few of the numerous pre-existing cattle brand symbols.

Please don’t react with personal attacks when people on this forum present reasonable alternative explanations. It does not do anything to support your idea.

How so? With what are you basing that this is just a few oddball symbol connections? Does that mean you consider the by gun, by knife, etc, to be just coincidence that it is in a comic book?

No worries….didn’t consider anything I said a personal attack any more than what was posted about this being a joke of a thread by others.

Please don’t react with personal attacks when people on this forum present reasonable alternative explanations. It does not do anything to support your idea.

How so? With what are you basing that this is just a few oddball symbol connections? Does that mean you consider the by gun, by knife, etc, to be just coincidence that it is in a comic book?

It is simply this idea: If someone were to create a cipher, and needed to invent some easy-to-draw symbols to use for substitutions, they would be very likely to create symbols that happen to appear in the numerous brand books, since many others in that line of work have already thought up those symbols. However, one exception might be the Fred Harmon brand that resembles the Halloween Card symbol, since it is quite unique among the other more simplistic symbols.

The comic book connection is also compelling. So, I don’t discount the possibility that there are possible connections between Fred Harmon, cattle brands, comic books, and the Zodiac Killer. But it’s another thing altogether to say that the connections are beyond reasonable doubt.

Found this interesting…
Not far from Fred Harmon’s, Red Ryder Ranch in Pagosa Springs, Colorado is the Paradise Ranch.

Found this interesting…
Not far from Fred Harmon’s, Red Ryder Ranch in Pagosa Springs, Colorado is the Paradise Ranch.

I think this ranch is a fairly recent purchase and renamed at the same time. I don’t believe this dates back to the Z era, at least as far as the name of the ranch goes, though the ranch itself may have been there.

It’s also the wrong, right spelling.

Please don’t react with personal attacks when people on this forum present reasonable alternative explanations. It does not do anything to support your idea.

How so? With what are you basing that this is just a few oddball symbol connections? Does that mean you consider the by gun, by knife, etc, to be just coincidence that it is in a comic book?

It is simply this idea: If someone were to create a cipher, and needed to invent some easy-to-draw symbols to use for substitutions, they would be very likely to create symbols that happen to appear in the numerous brand books, since many others in that line of work have already thought up those symbols. However, one exception might be the Fred Harmon brand that resembles the Halloween Card symbol, since it is quite unique among the other more simplistic symbols.

The comic book connection is also compelling. So, I don’t discount the possibility that there are possible connections between Fred Harmon, cattle brands, comic books, and the Zodiac Killer. But it’s another thing altogether to say that the connections are beyond reasonable doubt.

Sorry…i never addressed this post. So what you are saying is that anyone could just make up symbols and the fact that ALL of them match livestock brands is a coincidence?

I am no numbers or odds person, but if anyone here is, can you please tell me the odds of EVERY symbol matching a brand are?

If matching however many symbols Z made to livestock brands is a fluke, then how is any theory of Z relating to anyone correct?

I think there were around 60 or 70 symbols used, but not really sure as I don’t follow all the other threads. So at this point I have made a connection to all of them. Is there another theory out there that has connected more than this?

Sorry, but making up that many symbols that just happen to match…the odds have to be astronomical.

vasa croe-

To be honest, I really dislike when people just throw stuff out there and say "what are the odds?," "must be astronomical!," and etc.
Let’s say, for instance, that the number of symbols that Zodiac used in ALL of his ciphers is 70. I did not do an exact count, but that seems to be a very reasonable estimate.

Now, the question is, how many different "livestock brands" are there? If there are only 80, and Zodiac used 70 of them, that’s interesting. But if there are 1000 of them, 70 is more likely coincidence.

But I’m willing to bet that there are even more than 1000. A 2011 article in "The Cattleman Magazine" indicates over 100,000!! And I believe that that is only in Texas alone.

Suddenly, 70 matches appears much more likely to be coincidental.

-glurk

Also, you could select other cipher alphabets that aren’t constructed by Zodiac and make the same claim about a connection to cattle brands.

Surely most of those symbols can be found among the many thousands of cattle brands.

Just for the record – and I wanted to be sure myself – it seems that Zodiac used a total of 72 unique symbols in all of his ciphers. Here is an image that shows them all, and their occurrence counts:

-glurk

It’s getting cut off at the edge so here’s a direct link:

http://i.imgur.com/OEYRRRl.png

Just for the record – and I wanted to be sure myself – it seems that Zodiac used a total of 72 unique symbols in all of his ciphers. Here is an image that shows them all, and their occurrence counts:

-glurk

What is the reason for the top red line of numbers versus the bottom red line of numbers? Is one from a certain cipher and the other from another?

vasa croe-

No, that is all of the symbols from all of the ciphers combined. Read DOWN. So the + sign on the far left occurs 32 times, and the ‘omega’ on the right only occurs 1 time.

It was the easiest way for me to show it. Also, these are from my "ZKDFont" that I created for the ZKD program. I’m no artist, but I tried to represent the symbols faithfully.

-glurk