Thanks for explaining doranchak.
Interesting. Maybe we need more statistics on test ciphers. Could try to figure out what the expected fragment distribution should look like for many normal substitution ciphers (at the same multiplicity as the original 340), then try to compare the untransposed ciphers to that.
Yes, but multiplicity is not a good approximation for fragment repeats. If you compare average (randomized) bigram reps between the 340 and 408 (340 chars) the 340 has more reps while its multiplicity is about 0.027 higher.
I think what I’m getting at is that we should generate more "normal" (simple homophonic substitution) 340-character ciphers with the same symbol distribution, using known plain texts, and see what the typical fragment measurements turn out to be. Knowing more about the expected fragment distribution (not just bigrams) might give us an improved way to detect when a putative un-transposition is on the right track.
I think what I’m getting at is that we should generate more "normal" (simple homophonic substitution) 340-character ciphers with the same symbol distribution, using known plain texts, and see what the typical fragment measurements turn out to be. Knowing more about the expected fragment distribution (not just bigrams) might give us an improved way to detect when a putative un-transposition is on the right track.
I agree.
I made a new spreadsheet that shows an un-transposed version of the 340, or any message, with conditional formatting for symbols that occur in any period x repeats. There are only seven colors, so some symbols share the same color. But they help to visually find matching repeats very quickly.
For instance, if you want to find the 19-6 repeat, you just have to find the other yellow 19 and grey 6.
And I can turn off colored symbols and show other selected symbols if I want, such as cycle 6-30-37. I wanted to see if the cycles would be identifiable, and by golly, they are encoded vertically top down left right!
And I can show both colored symbols and selected symbols at the same time.
Doesn’t get us any closer to a solve, but I thought that Mr. Lowe would like that.
Mr Lowe thinks your a genius..
Looking nice smokie. 
We are about 4-6 people working on the 340 in our free time. And we all have a different approach, which I like. We are what we are and it’s hard to change, people often are happy as they are. I just want to apologize a bit for my chaos.
That said I’m still very motivated to solve or make advancements on the 340 and I have a couple of big projects for 2016. One of them, ofcourse, will be pushing improvements to AZdecrypt and it’s where I’m spending most of my time right now. If we all keep pushing for improvements here and there then automatically good things should come of it. If you, for instance compare your own progress from 2015 to 2016, you will probably notice that you have come a long way.
Jarlve, have you explored Glurk’s idea about the backwards words? I am thinking about it.
How about half backward half forward. Rail/fence, when you get to the end you come back. Gets you the 19s , not sure if it gets you anything different coming back.
I am wondering if I can make a message with reversed words, and substantially the same symbol distribution, and get a comparable number of untransposed period 1 matches. Because some period 1 bigram matches in a message with words that read from left to right must contain symbols with the end of one word and the beginning of the following word. But then wouldn’t that also be true if the words are backwards?
EDIT: I made the "I like killing" message with words reversed. Before the words are reversed, there are 261 period 1 bigram matches. After reversing the words, there are 255 period 1 bigram matches. So, the answer is that yes, it is very easy to make a message with reversed words, and substantially the same symbol distribution as the 340, and get a comparable number of untransposed period 1 matches.
EDIT 2: Here is smokie26. I reversed the words in the "I like killing" message, transposed it, and encoded it.
smokie 26 is a scytale period 19
before untransposition
23 11 54 37 51 48 32 38 52 12 39 42 13 13 15 11 12
58 49 12 50 16 24 53 25 1 26 48 43 2 45 5 20 46
21 34 51 55 28 54 52 31 48 14 35 22 42 60 20 17 12
59 37 51 42 40 3 27 2 23 32 11 21 25 51 36 12 52
16 53 25 26 13 7 38 8 32 7 50 27 47 52 39 14 18
51 19 41 45 15 15 56 12 14 14 18 15 23 29 46 53 1
34 37 25 38 22 2 25 8 2 6 57 5 39 5 11 9 42
48 17 40 26 49 23 51 43 10 23 20 61 24 55 25 52 45
30 16 41 41 50 31 26 53 27 17 23 9 24 35 19 40 32
25 41 26 12 36 30 48 30 37 51 59 40 31 4 10 49 54
62 32 50 34 58 48 49 33 13 27 12 15 47 52 30 47 11
12 40 31 27 24 38 13 55 54 1 56 47 57 18 25 25 27
2 32 56 62 33 28 41 55 35 3 40 42 23 22 13 45 18
50 58 43 30 4 62 24 15 48 16 1 7 46 53 19 51 47
54 2 25 11 9 26 31 36 59 32 21 39 19 12 13 31 13
14 11 41 20 52 5 37 29 49 12 61 44 8 3 38 6 18
30 36 7 53 62 51 4 39 1 33 27 35 45 40 55 20 25
37 38 24 13 39 52 50 32 21 46 33 30 31 2 53 14 36
51 15 3 4 28 20 11 12 29 52 53 40 32 25 33 37 44
38 19 21 34 10 18 52 47 5 8 48 37 6 3 58 25 13
words are reversed
I E K I L G N I L L I K E L P O E
P E S U A C E B T I S I O S H C U
M N U F T I S I E R O M N U F N A
H T G N I L L I K D L I W E M A G
N I E H T T S E R R O F E S U A C
E B N A M S I E H T T S O M S U O
R E G N A D L A M I N A F O L L A
O T L L I K G N I H T E M O S S E
V I G E M E H T T S O M G N I L L
I R H T E C N E R E P X E T I S I
N E V E R E T T E B N A H T G N I
T T E G R U O Y S K C O R F F O H
T I W R I G A H T L T S E B E T R
A P F O T I S I T A H T N E H W I
E I D I L L I W E B N R O B E R N
I E C I D A R A P D N A L L A E H
T E V A H I D E L L I K L L I W E
M O C E B Y M S E V A L S I L L I
W T O N E V I G U O Y Y M E M A N
E S U A C E B U O Y L L I W Y R T
key
A 1 2 3 4
B 5 6
C 7 8
D 9 10
E 11 12 13 14 15
F 16 17
G 18 19
H 20 21 22
I 23 24 25 26 27
J
K 28 29
L 30 31 32 33
M 34 35 36
N 37 38 39
O 40 41 42
P 43 44
Q
R 45 46 47
S 48 49 50
T 51 52 53
U 54 55
V 56 57
W 58 59
X 60
Y 61 62
Z
untransposed for solver ( but words are still reversed )
23 12 28 27 32 18 39 25 32 32 27 28 15 32 44 40 14 44
11 50 54 2 7 15 5 52 25 50 24 41 48 21 8 55 36 38
54 16 52 23 50 23 11 45 41 34 38 55 16 39 3 20 51 19
37 24 31 32 27 29 9 30 26 58 13 35 1 19 38 25 15 21
51 53 48 11 47 46 42 16 12 48 55 3 7 12 6 37 3 34
48 25 14 21 52 53 48 41 36 49 54 40 46 13 18 38 4 10
32 1 35 25 39 1 17 41 30 33 1 42 53 31 30 24 28 18
38 26 22 51 14 34 40 50 48 13 56 23 19 13 36 13 20 52
52 48 42 36 18 37 26 31 30 27 47 22 51 14 7 39 11 47
12 43 60 12 51 25 49 26 37 12 57 13 47 11 53 52 12 5
39 2 20 52 19 38 23 53 51 15 18 45 54 41 62 50 29 8
42 45 17 16 41 22 51 27 59 47 25 18 2 20 51 32 52 48
13 5 12 53 45 2 43 17 40 52 25 50 25 52 4 21 53 37
13 20 59 25 15 25 10 23 31 30 27 58 11 5 39 46 40 6
15 46 37 26 15 8 23 9 4 47 2 43 9 37 1 33 32 3
11 21 51 13 56 2 20 24 10 11 32 30 26 29 33 30 25 58
12 34 42 7 12 6 61 35 49 12 56 4 31 49 27 31 33 25
58 51 40 38 14 57 24 19 54 40 62 62 36 12 35 2 37 13
49 55 3 8 14 5 55 40 62 31 33 24 59 61 45 53
Here are the 340 versus smokie26 symbol distributions, which are substantially the same ( except there is no symbol with count of 24 ):
Here are the 340 period 1 matches:
And here are the smokie26 period 1 matches, which looks substantially similar to the 340:
And I tried to solve it with Jarlve’s program, getting similar results:
Score: 21187 Ioc: 719 M: 182 C: 340 S: 62 aadestdessediscoac iroininderearnmigh oldaraisachildontt hepseaglesemothein ttrinsularionalhoc reandtragboosethis somedocalroutpledt hestacorrelategend drugtheplenstandin andatebehavenitdan dindthattitsoafram usclasternetintsdr enatsincoderedinth enreiesaplesindsol isheimagininghorso intelinesislearles acunalumbalipbepre stohavetooffgamihe biomaniofprerust 23 12 28 27 32 18 39 25 32 32 27 28 15 32 44 40 14 44 11 50 54 2 7 15 5 52 25 50 24 41 48 21 8 55 36 38 54 16 52 23 50 23 11 45 41 34 38 55 16 39 3 20 51 19 37 24 31 32 27 29 9 30 26 58 13 35 1 19 38 25 15 21 51 53 48 11 47 46 42 16 12 48 55 3 7 12 6 37 3 34 48 25 14 21 52 53 48 41 36 49 54 40 46 13 18 38 4 10 32 1 35 25 39 1 17 41 30 33 1 42 53 31 30 24 28 18 38 26 22 51 14 34 40 50 48 13 56 23 19 13 36 13 20 52 52 48 42 36 18 37 26 31 30 27 47 22 51 14 7 39 11 47 12 43 60 12 51 25 49 26 37 12 57 13 47 11 53 52 12 5 39 2 20 52 19 38 23 53 51 15 18 45 54 41 62 50 29 8 42 45 17 16 41 22 51 27 59 47 25 18 2 20 51 32 52 48 13 5 12 53 45 2 43 17 40 52 25 50 25 52 4 21 53 37 13 20 59 25 15 25 10 23 31 30 27 58 11 5 39 46 40 6 15 46 37 26 15 8 23 9 4 47 2 43 9 37 1 33 32 3 11 21 51 13 56 2 20 24 10 11 32 30 26 29 33 30 25 58 12 34 42 7 12 6 61 35 49 12 56 4 31 49 27 31 33 25 58 51 40 38 14 57 24 19 54 40 62 62 36 12 35 2 37 13 49 55 3 8 14 5 55 40 62 31 33 24 59 61 45 53
So glurk’s idea is very good and could explain why we can un-transpose the 340 but not get a solution.
Un-transposed, the 340 has six sets of double symbols:
So maybe try a manual solve, and start with LLIK, GNILLIK, or even GNILLIKELPOEP.
aadestdesse disco aciroininder earn migh
old arais a child on t theps eagles e moth ein
ttr insular ionalhocre and trag boose this
some doc alr out pled thes ta correlate gend
drug the plen stand in and ate behave nitdan
dind that t it so afra musclas ternetints dr
enats in code red in then reiesaplesindsol
i she imagining horso inte lines is learles
acunalumbalip be presto have to off gami he
bio man iofpre rust
Jarlve, have you explored Glurk’s idea about the backwards words? I am thinking about it.
Yes, some pages back:
mI gniog ot tsuj ssot siht aedi tuo ereh, dna i ma erus uoy lla era erawa fo ti tub siht saw desu ni a eop rehpic
-krulg
It’s a good idea, thanks. I will work on a set of n-grams to accommodate.
Solves reasonably (Score: 22571) without adjusting n-grams when reversed. So I’m pretty sure something like that, or variations of it are not holding us back of getting higher scores on the 340 transposition hypothesis.
Score: 22571.45 Ioc: 0.06388509 Chi2: 21.68135 H: 3.962675 M: 0.244186 C: 86 S: 21 michercoeainusedwasthisbutitofawareareallyousurealiandhereoutideathistossjusttogoingil kclwfilnfycpoqfgzyqbwcqxobcbnuyzyifyifyaaenoqoifyscypgwfifnobcgfybwcqbnqqmoqbbnjncpjcs micher coe a in used was this but it of aware are all you sure al i and here out idea this toss just to going il
You may have read about my new transposition solver project. Right now it has no intelligence and just does a random walk but it was able to get somewhat of a solution (Score: 22002) in 2 minutes. I’ll let it run for a while longer, and thanks for a new cipher. I have also solved your cipher just undoing period 19 and reversing it. What we are basicly considering is randomized word order, it will score less but the solver still gets it.
Transposition operation(s): period(1,18) mirror(17,20). Score: 22002.43 Ioc: 0.06467118 Entropy: 4.124974 Chi-square: 38.14376 Characters: 340 Letters: 22 eoplebillinglibea uchsoasitbecausep anfunmoreasatfunm damewildkillandth causeforrestthein ousmosttheismance allofanimaldanger essomethingballto llingmostthemedav isitemperencethri andthanbettereven hoffrocksyourgett rtebestlthagircit ichenthatisitofpa nrecornbewilladie heallandparadacei ewillkilledahavet illislavesmicecom namemyyoudavenotw tricallyoubecause Multiplicity: 0.1823529 Characters: 340 Symbols: 62 35 41 62 7 14 33 43 7 7 21 11 48 7 43 33 10 1 32 46 30 6 50 19 17 21 9 27 14 45 25 3 17 2 62 42 11 18 32 8 31 50 26 2 1 17 1 9 18 3 8 44 49 22 36 13 15 23 58 55 52 43 7 34 19 4 49 5 28 45 42 32 6 10 18 12 29 47 2 6 20 5 30 14 21 8 41 3 16 44 50 6 20 9 30 35 21 6 31 42 4 53 10 22 61 58 50 39 22 11 21 36 22 7 56 59 8 48 13 29 13 6 17 41 31 35 5 37 23 8 48 33 19 58 34 20 12 58 34 23 4 48 44 12 6 9 9 28 13 44 13 49 1 51 23 16 21 5 10 38 24 10 47 2 11 45 35 5 37 47 43 1 8 49 9 28 25 11 27 10 9 20 2 47 13 54 10 4 37 50 18 39 26 12 46 52 17 60 50 3 26 48 14 5 20 26 20 10 27 13 6 9 7 5 28 25 48 21 47 40 43 5 21 40 28 13 4 20 30 59 9 21 17 21 9 41 39 24 25 4 29 14 53 41 29 11 27 2 15 43 58 34 1 56 21 14 30 2 42 7 61 22 4 55 24 25 47 59 55 1 46 14 23 10 15 21 58 61 52 23 58 7 2 56 19 28 25 51 13 5 21 61 34 43 16 34 59 51 10 16 36 57 53 10 45 12 31 4 25 36 10 44 60 60 41 3 49 19 54 35 8 41 5 15 20 26 57 40 19 61 34 60 41 32 27 35 46 42 32 16 13
Follow up smokie26, transposition/manipulation solver, score 23546.
Manipulation operation(s): period(1,18), reverse Score: 23546.59 Ioc: 0.06449766 Entropy: 4.145092 Chi-square: 47.12804 Characters: 340 Letters: 22 trywillyoubecause namemyyougivenotw illislavesmybecom ewillkilledihavet heallandparadicei nrebornbewillidie iwhenthatisitofpa rtebestlthagirwit hoffrocksyourgett ingthanbettereven isitedperencethri llingmostthemegiv essomethingwillto allofanimaldanger ousmosttheismanbe causeforrestthein gamewildkillingth anfunmoreisitfunm uchsoisitbecausep eoplewillingliwei Multiplicity: 0.1823529 Characters: 340 Symbols: 62 20 26 57 40 19 61 34 60 41 32 27 35 46 42 32 16 13 4 25 36 10 44 60 60 41 3 49 19 54 35 8 41 5 15 21 61 34 43 16 34 59 51 10 16 36 57 53 10 45 12 31 10 15 21 58 61 52 23 58 7 2 56 19 28 25 51 13 5 30 2 42 7 61 22 4 55 24 25 47 59 55 1 46 14 23 4 29 14 53 41 29 11 27 2 15 43 58 34 1 56 21 14 21 40 28 13 4 20 30 59 9 21 17 21 9 41 39 24 25 26 20 10 27 13 6 9 7 5 28 25 48 21 47 40 43 5 37 50 18 39 26 12 46 52 17 60 50 3 26 48 14 5 20 1 8 49 9 28 25 11 27 10 9 20 2 47 13 54 10 4 23 16 21 5 10 38 24 10 47 2 11 45 35 5 37 47 43 58 34 23 4 48 44 12 6 9 9 28 13 44 13 49 1 51 13 6 17 41 31 35 5 37 23 8 48 33 19 58 34 20 12 22 61 58 50 39 22 11 21 36 22 7 56 59 8 48 13 29 41 3 16 44 50 6 20 9 30 35 21 6 31 42 4 53 10 45 42 32 6 10 18 12 29 47 2 6 20 5 30 14 21 8 49 22 36 13 15 23 58 55 52 43 7 34 19 4 49 5 28 42 11 18 32 8 31 50 26 2 1 17 1 9 18 3 8 44 32 46 30 6 50 19 17 21 9 27 14 45 25 3 17 2 62 35 41 62 7 14 33 43 7 7 21 11 48 7 43 33 10 1
Jarlve-
Can you solve a homophonic vignere now? Let me make one…
-glurk
39 49 24 12 2 50 6 50 37 15 17 32 23 42 45 34 7 20 17 31 30 36 29 7 38 39 50 16 25 22 3 43 17 54 4 18 35 34 16 1 23 46 9 54 48 43 39 45 53 50 8 7 53 51 20 37 16 13 47 13 27 15 32 37 34 36 18 24 42 33 44 31 13 22 9 39 27 3 17 5 50 23 50 21 20 32 24 31 24 42 18 5 31 14 38 24 45 20 9 28 5 33 12 46 39 37 31 31 15 33 20 28 34 10 24 26 33 40 18 10 27 36 24 44 54 24 3 42 50 13 10 13 20 25 4 9 32 12 20 23 30 7 43 13 47 3 5 31 37 7 5 48 9 7 23 37 3 48 42 23 52 46 54 19 43 19 16 40 54 22 15 31 21 23 30 26 52 20 18 46 52 15 39 34 11 43 39 23 12 14 53 17 49 46 16 46 49 30 24 38 27 54 40 54 48 19 53 6 25 52 6 54 18 41 12 37 32 37 34 5 1 14 28 16 41 22 16 46 17 45 52 13 13 11 8 10 10 36 14 22 19 54 30 45 48 3 10 21 8 5 25 37 42 37 11 8 1 25 8 34 45 32 48 42 25 53 50 48 14 41 51 23 15 39 15 24 26 33 1 4 50 27 21 21 2 10 42 24 42 50 48 34 45 36 14 31 31 37 15 54 6 21 19 7 20 19 31 6 21 52 7 11 45 51 14 30 34 35 43 43 10 46 49 3 16 35 51 30 30 37 34 16 49 28 1 37 5 13 42 48 10 10 21 3 48 35 31 18 23 20 43 4 18 31 36 10 49
To be clear on this one, I created a plaintext somewhat like the 408’s. I used a Vigenere keyword of some unspecified length to encode it, and I then encoded that result as a homophonic cipher with 54 uniques. Should be difficult, I guess.
"I LIKE EATING" are the first three words of the solution. I can’t add the next word, because it would be weird.
——————————–
I don’t believe in monsters.
