I like your new transposition manipulation solver. Have you tried it on the 340?
Can you solve a homophonic vignere now?
No, but I have been thinking about it. I’m very busy with the transposition solver right now. The keyword is 7 letters long? I’ll keep your cipher handy, thanks for making it.
I like your new transposition manipulation solver. Have you tried it on the 340?
Thanks. It’s running yes, so far nothing much. Best score is 20765. Only using these operations currently: flip(x,y), mirror(x,y), rotate(x,y,a), period(a,b) with a variable stack size of maximum 6 operations, no hill climbing. Most of the higher scores as of now seem to prefer use of the rotation operator, which is also known as columnar (un)transposition. My current priority is to make an early version of the transposition/manipulation solver available to you guys.
Anyone know of some unsolved transpostion ciphers? 
Transposition operation(s): flip(68,5) flip(4,85) rotate(20,17,1) rotate(68,5,2). Score: 20764.65 Ioc: 0.07768524 Entropy: 3.776693 Chi-square: 62.89722 Characters: 340 Letters: 17 nnicedsofrolderll fearhisamenglerth osisastrelthisroo mdesirchstohalidt oetherherestreisf emsformahofwallse thasatthencesitho peofleminshieihas saileddianminissa threttmatiletheon elehadtomcomchrie fthissionithedist hinasemandesmatth irthosestratrting lemolooneandstatw ardasonwartintoms omearlsaidsteditl antsranssonondile moremonsatothetwe ralldamongthepito Multiplicity: 0.1852941 Characters: 340 Symbols: 63 33 33 6 56 19 29 51 21 42 26 40 18 4 30 46 20 18 42 19 62 48 28 50 51 44 11 39 2 35 20 19 16 32 23 40 7 6 53 36 3 27 48 19 20 5 28 50 3 16 14 10 9 17 19 51 50 16 56 23 3 32 21 28 36 24 8 4 47 40 19 27 23 19 16 12 22 26 19 34 31 16 19 8 7 42 19 11 51 63 14 26 11 54 23 40 42 1 36 20 20 51 19 47 58 44 53 61 32 15 58 19 38 56 30 34 37 15 28 21 45 19 40 63 20 39 25 50 38 51 23 37 30 6 23 61 53 51 49 37 20 22 4 17 6 44 41 11 8 38 57 7 3 13 27 23 26 22 5 15 11 13 15 37 20 30 31 23 30 43 41 19 20 19 12 36 17 5 14 9 56 10 25 56 23 48 50 22 63 31 23 8 53 7 6 21 55 8 47 12 19 29 57 7 31 28 8 55 62 51 19 11 54 55 29 19 53 11 36 31 5 52 50 48 47 52 21 51 30 51 5 16 13 15 16 31 6 2 60 18 22 25 21 18 14 10 33 39 36 33 29 3 5 44 5 1 13 26 29 13 3 10 33 1 36 26 5 37 55 27 43 11 34 40 11 39 36 16 18 3 36 50 4 53 59 19 17 37 5 20 36 38 31 34 16 61 2 3 34 43 41 14 41 29 37 20 19 11 40 46 19 25 10 55 7 54 15 40 59 58 19 5 1 19 46 49 24 20 17 13 9 21 38 35 32 28 19 45 6 5 40
@smokie,
I have added skytale to my manipulation solver – as well as diagonal (un)transposition – and it seems that there are several ways to solve your cipher (smokie26). The first argument in Skytale(a,b) is 1=transposition, 2=untransposition. The second argument is the skytale period itself. If everything goes normal then I should be able to share the new solver within a week or two.
Manipulation operation(s): Skytale(2,19), Reverse
Manipulation operation(s): Reverse, Skytale(2,19)
Manipulation operation(s): Skytale(2,321)
Manipulation operation(s): Skytale(2,41), Skytale(2,41)
Manipulation operation(s): Skytale(1,161)
Manipulation operation(s): Skytale(1,179), Reverse
Manipulation operation(s): Skytale(1,201), Skytale(2,261)
Manipulation operation(s): Skytale(1,229), Skytale(2,69)
Manipulation operation(s): Reverse, Skytale(1,179)
Etc, most solves are not exactly identical and interestingly the reverse operation is not needed at all to solve the cipher. All score around 22000. An example:
Manipulation operation(s): Skytale(2,41), Skytale(2,41) Score: 22084.53 Ioc: 0.06434149 Entropy: 4.11048 Chi-square: 36.75484 Characters: 340 Letters: 21 inamemyyougivenot waallkilledihavet heaorndewillidaea whentlthagarwitho ffrocetterevenisa tedperhemegivesso methingangerousmo sttheasmeangamewi ldkillingmuchsois atdecauseptrywill youdecausellislav esmydecomewllandp aradiceinredthata satofpartedesksyo urgettingthandenc ethrillingmosttwi lltoallofanamalda ndecauseforrestth thanfunmoreisitfu neoplewillangliwe Multiplicity: 0.1823529 Characters: 340 Symbols: 62 1 4 25 36 10 44 60 60 41 3 49 19 54 35 8 41 5 15 21 21 58 61 52 23 58 7 2 56 19 28 25 51 13 5 30 2 42 41 29 11 27 2 15 43 58 34 1 56 21 14 21 40 28 13 4 9 7 5 28 25 48 21 47 40 43 5 37 50 18 39 26 12 46 10 9 20 2 47 13 54 10 4 23 16 21 5 10 38 24 10 47 28 13 44 13 49 1 51 13 6 17 41 31 35 5 37 23 8 48 59 8 48 13 29 41 3 16 44 50 6 20 9 30 35 21 6 31 14 21 8 49 22 36 13 15 23 58 55 52 43 7 34 19 4 49 44 32 46 30 6 50 19 17 21 9 27 14 45 25 3 17 2 62 20 26 57 40 19 61 34 60 41 32 27 35 46 42 32 16 13 61 34 43 16 34 59 51 10 16 36 57 53 10 45 12 31 10 15 7 61 22 4 55 24 25 47 59 55 1 46 14 23 4 29 14 53 20 30 59 9 21 17 21 9 41 39 24 25 26 20 10 27 13 6 52 17 60 50 3 26 48 14 5 20 1 8 49 9 28 25 11 27 2 11 45 35 5 37 47 43 58 34 23 4 48 44 12 6 9 9 33 19 58 34 20 12 22 61 58 50 39 22 11 21 36 22 7 56 42 4 53 10 45 42 32 6 10 18 12 29 47 2 6 20 5 30 5 28 42 11 18 32 8 31 50 26 2 1 17 1 9 18 3 8 35 41 62 7 14 33 43 7 7 21 11 48 7 43 33 10
jalve wrote.. Anyone know of some unsolved transpostion ciphers?
The Beal cipher.. I only want 5%
Not sure what cipher type it is..or if it is real..
So hurry up and solve this one so we can move on..
Anyone know of some unsolved transpostion ciphers?
I toyed with this one a while back:
https://www.evernote.com/shard/s1/sh/a7 … d5911dc739
If you want a break from the Zodiac cipher, start with Nick’s link in there to read about the Fates Unwind Inifinity code. I thought it was a simple substitution cipher but something else is apparently going on with it.
One of my old notes says:
The Fates Unwind code:
* number of 4-grams that repeat: 23
* number of 5-grams that repeat: 2
* number of 6-grams that repeat: 1
Huge difference. Let’s assume some kind of transposition is destroying the repeated n-grams.
I had contacted the author and he says it is a real cryptogram.
Anyway, yes, Chapter 8 Part 2 is indeed a cryptogram. I do not provide any hints, because I’m interested in how long it will take for it to be solved it without guidance. I feel like I might should have left some definite hints, since it is so much more difficult to solve a cryptogram than to design one, but it is fully solvable without any. I will confirm that it is not a fake cryptogram, that is, it certainly does encode words in a systematic way.
Cheers, and best of luck if you try to puzzle it out!
Sometimes glurk likes to drop hints and after his last post a light bulb appeared over my head.
I was thinking that transposition before vigenere encoding would make a different message than vigenere encoding before transposition. But I was also thinking that transposition with period 19 before vigenere encoding with a keyword length that is a divisor of 18, may cause more period 19 repeats. That is because the plaintext at position 1 would be encoded with the same keyword letter as position 19.
I experimented with this for a short while, only to realize that nevertheless, to make period 19 repeats, the leftmost plaintext position would still have to fall on an increment of the keyword length.
Symbol 19, or the +, is a very high contributor to the period 19 repeats. And a little experimenting showed that if there are multiple cycled keys, there are likely only a few of them.
If the keyword length was 6, that could increase the probability of locating symbol 19 on non prime positions and also cause symbols at position 1 and 19 to be encoded with the same key, thus increasing the number of period 19 repeats. But it is unlikely that a keyword of length 6 could result in so many repeats.
I would like to eliminate multiple keys, and have begun working on that project.
I have been trying to solve glurk’s message, and the keyword length is 7.
Columns reading from left to right: leftmost symbol, rightmost symbol, leftmost symbol position, rightmost symbol position, and spacing ( rightmost position – leftmost position ). I just divided the spacing by integers 2 through 12 and found that almost all of the period 1 repeats are spaced in increments of 7.
Symbol counts per key range from 25 to 31, with a total unique symbol count of 192. I tried to make a unique set of symbols for each key, for a total of 192 unique symbols in a message with total count of 357. I got a lot of high scoring solves, but many of them are different. With homophonic substitution, it may be very difficult to map ciphertext to plaintext in any particular key.
I did the same think with the 340, un-transposed, and did not find any indication that there are multiple keys. There is no spacing of period 1 bigram repeats that is predominate.
I also report that I was wrong with my thinking about a possible keyword of length that is a divisor of 18. The transposed order of symbols reads vertically, from top down left right. But the difference in symbol position between the leftmost symbol in a period 1 repeat is 19, not 18. See below where I marked the repeat 7-25. Counting from the 7 symbol to the 25 symbol = 20 spaces. For both to be encoded with the same key, the key would actually have to be a divisor of 19. The beginning of the keyword would start at the 7, and also at the 25. This won’t even work with a two key system, because the first key would be used to encode the 7 and the second key would be used to encode the 25.
So I cannot see any way EDIT: Most ways that multiple keys could have been used to create so many bigram repeats, at least if they are cycled regularly and there are no skips or added nulls. Even with multiple keys, there would be so much diffusion as to make the high count of period 19 repeats very unlikely.
I suppose that it is possible that there could be two alternating keys encoded before transposition, and may explore the possibilities of that with some test messages. Seventeen of forty two period 19 matches do land on increments of 2. But that is even less than half, so this is not any substantial clue of two keys.
@smokie,
Thanks for your analysis, I’m also skeptical about Vigenere in the 340 (when taken the cipher as left-to-right, top-to-bottom).
Hi. For the record, my Vigenere example was just that – an example – and I do not think that the 340 involves a Vigenere cipher either. I posted that just as a test, more than anything else. And yes, the keyword is indeed 7 characters.
-glurk
——————————–
I don’t believe in monsters.
I’ve just released the first iteration (very basic) of the manipulation/transposition solver and I’m curious to see what it can do: viewtopic.php?f=81&t=2435&start=100
Haven’t been able to test it as much as I’d like but it should be able to solve a wide variety of transposition ciphers including those at: viewtopic.php?f=81&t=2133&hilit=2015
There may exist some redundancy with the manipulation/transposition solver since no such checks have been considered yet.
I’m quoting one of my own posts a while ago where the 340 was found to be more moldable than the smokie9 (sequential analysis). I still wonder if this is any substantial observation. Smokie, if you have the time I would like you to make 2 ciphers. One without transposition and one with a period 19 transposition, both with near exact 340 symbol frequencies and cycle stats. If not then I’ll look into it. Then we could start comparing responses.
I noticed that reversing large strings in the 340 doesn’t necessarily reduce cycle-scores so I ran a test that checks all possible strings with my m_s2_cycles measurement. An example of what I mean: "ABCABCABCABC" becomes "ABCCBACBAABC". I ran the test 5 times in a row for both the 340 and smokie9, each step building on the improved cipher string.
Two interesting questions here. Why is the 340 (much) more moldable in this regard than the smokie9? And why are the range of the first 3 steps reasonably similar for both ciphers?
340 base: 2152
1: Reverse string from position 221 to 288: 2350
2: Reverse string from position 272 to 317: 2551
3: Reverse string from position 4 to 166: 2756
4: Reverse string from position 85 to 208: 2945
5: Reverse string from position 52 to 97: 3061HER<7pO+J^+VUlz-K 46AycBF2RZ+b+M<d9 L@+zYN_+O#jfJ2G(| 5T4M.+&BFz69Sp8R^ FlO-*dCkF>2D(#5+K q%;2UcXGV.zL*|JRl c<2OKMTbpBYD|Et5/ R+U-yBF>pl^VPk|1L TG2dNp+B(#O%DWY.< *Kf)By:cM+UZGW()L #zHJSpp7^l8*V3pO+ +RK2_9M+ztjd|5FP+ &4k/y#+N|5FBc(;8) |BWlF+<C61L+TcR2G qMf.^pO(KBz3.c|+- 5ZUV>EC94:*1XBy+Y _Bt7<WdkF|p)(/THS OPcWzCW)++LRlGFN^ f524b.cV4t+OB*-Cc >MDHNpkSzZO8A|K;+smokie9 base: 2191
1: Reverse string from position 210 to 254: 2306
2: Reverse string from position 263 to 302: 2444
3: Reverse string from position 2 to 146: 2530
4: Reverse string from position 70 to 134: 2646
5: Reverse string from position 126 to 146: 2732+D!>A(Z0%G%ETQ7.2 )5M>-4PT#34J^:,4U BYX>=$3K;*3#2AWZ 3+Q]'9JN!"7T4P%^) GBUA;3[LK,!P+'BU> &HFY3D).EY!<$:@03 '?2QIW3NTG_'3KR43 )4ZJA.#(%5-DBW127 !4;=&][BUW:.+BXSI 3),E34K^"TDWO33J Y03YG%>2I+]3#U4Q) 1U)ZJP](/KL)+BC9 6V_^WF',BGPAU-#*@ 36!7B'O;TQW54>DB! %)X3$UKBZT8^WJB?' !RU4:EK>U4<BHB23U MB%.33F-&"WGG(PQZ 3Y>Y1V0X^CL>)A!UJ @K6+Q^BI=4T3D-!,% ;><P_]Q9.57UW33O
Do you want the same plaintext for both?
EDIT: I think that you are saying that the 340 cycle scores are not as volatile when reversing symbol strings. They do not change as much when you reversed symbol strings as opposed to smokie9. I remember that post, and we had briefly discussed it before. I am going to use the same plaintext for both, which will make it easier to match frequencies. For the transposition message, I will transpose before encoding, and perhaps attempt to encode before transposing as well even though it probably won’t work.
EDIT 2: I am also going to spend some passive time looking at other different types of classical ciphers to get ideas. I found one that looks very interesting, and wondering at the outset if a variation of the AMSCO cipher could produce period 19 repeats.
Thanks smokie. The AMSCO cipher is interesting, I did not know about it.
O.k., I am going to relax for a few hours after a long week. Then knock out some simple messages for your reversal of strings analysis.
Then I want to take a closer look at AMSCO and other variations of classical transpositions that could create period 19 repeats. There are a lot of websites showing a lot of different types of transpositions. And I am interested in what the books available to Zodiac would yield.
Has anyone out there tried transpositions with more than one plaintext at a time, or differing counts of plaintext at a time, such as AMSCO? Daikon, we haven’t heard from you in a long time. Are you out there?
Smokie
