I don’t think it is a Skytale cipher because Skytale is 1-dimensional and the reading rule in Z340 is 2-dimensional.

It is just that it all comes down to a different order in which the period 19 lines are read in, see example: viewtopic.php?f=81&t=4632

But even between the different orders there are many repeats because the sequences of the period 19 lines themselves are undisturbed.

Not sure if people will get this.

It doesn’t matter the format of how the text is written. It’s about the encoding and decoding method. It’s no use to encode a message if it needs to be in a specific layout format.

With proper encoding it can be formatted in one long line:
IRONCAOOIIERGRTMLECHETTATNWNNIAABWEITEOHSRTWTWGTAISDCCLOAPAOYCAHHOAMBNOHALPLEVFIHSEIUCPOOFAASALYIFNMNTTVHAUTTMSERTONAGETTMSBPTAHBENAHUGNLIOHEHROMFEEIDDE

Or like this:
IRONCAOOI
IERGRTMLECHETTAT
NWNNIAABWEITEOHSRTWTWGTAISDCCL
OAPAOYCAHHOAMBNOHALPLEVFIHSEIUCPOOFAASALYIFNMNT
TVHAUTTMSERTONAGETTMSBPTAHBENAHUGNLIOHEHROMFEEIDDE

or like this:
IRON
CAOO
IIERGR
TMLEC
….

It all decodes the same way.

Keyed plaintext (with mistakes as it appears on 340)
IRONCAOOIIERGRTMLECHETTATNWNNIAABWEITEOHSRTWTWGTAISDCCLOAPAOYCAHHOAMBNOHALPLEVFIHSEIUCPOOFAASALYIFNMNTTVHAUTTMSERTONAGETTMSBPTAHBENAHUGNLIOHEHROMFEEIDDE

Corrected Version (First 9 lines / 153 Characters)
IRONCAOOIIERGRTMIHETTATNWNNIAABWECOHSRTWTWGTAISEITEPAOYCAHHSAMDCCLOAEVFIHSEIUBNOHALPLYIFNMNTCPOOFAUSALONUGETVHAUTTMSERTUGNTTMSBPTAHBENAHALIOHEHROMFEEIDDE

Corrected Version decodes perfectly (using 9 turns)
IHOPEYOUAREHAVINGLOTSOFFUNINTRYINGTOCATCHMETHATWASNTMEONTHETVSHOWWHICHBRINGSUPAPOINTABOUTMEIAMNOTAFRAIDOFTHEGASCHAMBERBECAUSEITWILLSENDMETOPARADICEALLTHE

First Notes on Original vs Corrected Version (Original on top of Corrected)

Keyed plaintext (First 9 lines with mistakes as it appears on 340)
IRONCAOOIIERGRTMLECHETTATNWNNIAABWEITEOHSRTWTWGTAISDCCLOAPAOYCAHHOAMBNOHALPLEVFIHSEIUCPOOFAASALYIFNMNTTVHAUTTMSERTONAGETTMSBPTAHBENAHUGNLIOHEHROMFEEIDDE

Corrected Version (First 9 lines / 153 Characters)
IRONCAOOIIERGRTMIHETTATNWNNIAABWECOHSRTWTWGTAISEITEPAOYCAHHSAMDCCLOAEVFIHSEIUBNOHALPLYIFNMNTCPOOFAUSALONUGETVHAUTTMSERTUGNTTMSBPTAHBENAHALIOHEHROMFEEIDDE

At the end of the first line, he mixed up ‘I’ vs ‘L’ This is a common mistake.
IRONCAOOIIERGRTML
IRONCAOOIIERGRTMI

The second line, the last 2 chars are shited to the front of the line.
*This is due to the rules he is using, not clear as to why.
ECHETTATNWNNIAABW
HETTATNWNNIAABWEC

Third line is the same thing, but shifts 4 chars.
EITEOHSRTWTWGTAIS
OHSRTWTWGTAISEITE

Here is how the 340 cipher was constructed. Everything here is basic stuff found in the book "Codes and Ciphers" and does not require a computer to encrypt or decrypt.

Step 1) Write out message in plain text. (Since it was split up into parts, this is the first 9 lines)
I HOPE YOU ARE HAVING LOTS OF FUN IN TRYING TO CATCH ME THAT WASNT ME ON THE TV SHOW WHICH BRINGS UP A POINT ABOUT ME I AM NOT AFRAID OF THE GAS CHAMBER BECAUSE IT WILL SEND ME TO PARADICE ALL THE

Step 2) Encrypt with Scytale, (*9 Turns)
https://www.cryptool.org/en/cto/ciphers/scytale

We end up with this:
IRONCAOOIIERGRTMIHETTATNWNNIAABWECOHSRTWTWGTAISEITEPAOYCAHHSAMDCCLOAEVFIHSEIUBNOHALPLYIFNMNTCPOOFAUSALONUGETVHAUTTMSERTUGNTTMSBPTAHBENAHALIOHEHROMFEEIDDE

Step 3) Apply Key to plain text. Break into lines 17 chars long.

At this point we have a cipher that is very close to the published 340, but free of the noted mistakes.
*However, there are some shifts.

Step 4) Plaintext with shifts. ( *Not clear why the shifts, might be added step for security )

IRONCAOOIIERGRTMI (Z used L, I is correct)
HETTATNWNNIAABWEC +2
OHSRTWTWGTAISEITE +4
PAOYCAHHSAMDCCLOA +6
EVFIHSEIUBNOHALPL +8
YIFNMNTCPOOFAUSAL -7
ONUGETVHAUTTMSERT -5 (Z used A, U is correct)
UGNTTMSBPTAHBENAH -3
ALIOHEHROMFEEIDDE -1

We now have a cipher that looks like this (Pretty much the published version, with letter corrections)

IRONCAOOIIERGRTMI
ECHETTATNWNNIAABW
EITEOHSRTWTWGTAIS
DCCLOAPAOYCAHHOAM
BNOHALPLEVFIHSEIU
CPOOFAASALYIFNMNT
TVHAUTTMSERTONUGE
TTMSBPTAHBENAHUGN
LIOHEHROMFEEIDDEA

Those shifts (incremented by 2 on each next line) make up for period 19 transposition. If the period used for transposition was 17, that would result in "plain" 9-turn scytale cipher (in this layout basically "enter plaintext by rows, read ciphertext by columns"). I agree that this might have been used to increase difficulty.

Re: Homophonic substitution
Postby Mr lowe » Mon Jan 11, 2016 3:17 pm

Ok smokie thanks.. Purposely making a scytale harder you could, when writing out your plain text lines On the scytale skip a row until you come back around ..basically odds and evens. That would mix it up more.. Also using two letters per space. Also starting with a row of junk and finishing with filler. Also maybe writing alternate lines out upside down gives you some letters like p as a d .. Writing it backwards..
Misalignment in the construction process as smokie pointed out Is the only way I can think of him mucking it up. It’s a pretty simple thing to do so I think if this is what he did it should be right.
Jarlvie. Making it in parts is very possible. A two or three part scytale cipher with different alignments .

Edit:Could the other z codes be scytale. Wrapped around a pencil. Still to short to break.

we discussed the scytale to death for a year or two back in 2016..he did all of this ..he made it in three parts and he misaligned and he made mistakes..

Here is how the 340 cipher was constructed. Everything here is basic stuff found in the book "Codes and Ciphers" and does not require a computer to encrypt or decrypt.

Does this method make the two pivots random phenomenon?

Those shifts (incremented by 2 on each next line) make up for period 19 transposition. If the period used for transposition was 17, that would result in "plain" 9-turn scytale cipher (in this layout basically "enter plaintext by rows, read ciphertext by columns"). I agree that this might have been used to increase difficulty.

Good Point.

Here is how the 340 cipher was constructed. Everything here is basic stuff found in the book "Codes and Ciphers" and does not require a computer to encrypt or decrypt.

Does this method make the two pivots random phenomenon?

In a way. It is more due to the use of 17 character long lines. He used the same 17 length for the 408, and that’s a different type of cipher.

Here is how the 340 cipher was constructed. Everything here is basic stuff found in the book "Codes and Ciphers" and does not require a computer to encrypt or decrypt.

Step 1) Write out message in plain text. (Since it was split up into parts, this is the first 9 lines)
I HOPE YOU ARE HAVING LOTS OF FUN IN TRYING TO CATCH ME THAT WASNT ME ON THE TV SHOW WHICH BRINGS UP A POINT ABOUT ME I AM NOT AFRAID OF THE GAS CHAMBER BECAUSE IT WILL SEND ME TO PARADICE ALL THE

Step 2) Encrypt with Scytale, (*9 Turns)
https://www.cryptool.org/en/cto/ciphers/scytale

We end up with this:
IRONCAOOIIERGRTMIHETTATNWNNIAABWECOHSRTWTWGTAISEITEPAOYCAHHSAMDCCLOAEVFIHSEIUBNOHALPLYIFNMNTCPOOFAUSALONUGETVHAUTTMSERTUGNTTMSBPTAHBENAHALIOHEHROMFEEIDDE

Step 3) Apply Key to plain text. Break into lines 17 chars long.

At this point we have a cipher that is very close to the published 340, but free of the noted mistakes.
*However, there are some shifts.

Step 4) Plaintext with shifts. ( *Not clear why the shifts, might be added step for security )

IRONCAOOIIERGRTMI (Z used L, I is correct)
HETTATNWNNIAABWEC +2
OHSRTWTWGTAISEITE +4
PAOYCAHHSAMDCCLOA +6
EVFIHSEIUBNOHALPL +8
YIFNMNTCPOOFAUSAL -7
ONUGETVHAUTTMSERT -5 (Z used A, U is correct)
UGNTTMSBPTAHBENAH -3
ALIOHEHROMFEEIDDE -1

We now have a cipher that looks like this (Pretty much the published version, with letter corrections)

IRONCAOOIIERGRTMI
ECHETTATNWNNIAABW
EITEOHSRTWTWGTAIS
DCCLOAPAOYCAHHOAM
BNOHALPLEVFIHSEIU
CPOOFAASALYIFNMNT
TVHAUTTMSERTONUGE
TTMSBPTAHBENAHUGN
LIOHEHROMFEEIDDEA

Some of the mistakes Z made, almost verify this is a Skytale Cipher.
End of the first line, Z used ‘L’, Skytail calls for ‘I’ (this corrects the line).

Good work Paul_Averly. I think I know the probable location that originally inspired Zodiac to create a cipher based on the Skytale method. A Few Words on Secret Writing by Edgar Allan Poe, the cryptographer and author mentioned in the D.C.B Marsh article on October 22nd 1969.
https://www.zodiacciphers.com/zodiac-ne … 340-cipher

Good work Paul_Averly. I think I know the probable location that originally inspired Zodiac to create a cipher based on the Skytale method. A Few Words on Secret Writing by Edgar Allan Poe, the cryptographer and author mentioned in the D.C.B Marsh article on October 22nd 1969.
https://www.zodiacciphers.com/zodiac-ne … 340-cipher

AMAZING! Right there in black and white this whole time! Incredible find Richard! Now where are those other 13 letters!?

Before this thread gets out of hand, people should be aware that what was used was a form of "route cipher" (one-down, two-to-right) that just by coincidence, happens to partially match up with a scytale (rhymes with Italy) encoding.

The thing is, I am retired from this whole matter, and I just don’t have the time to put forth a long post explaining all the details of why.

So, just take it for whatever you think it’s worth. Someone with more time on their hands will probably explain it in more detail at some point.

Before this thread gets out of hand, people should be aware that what was used was a form of "route cipher" (one-down, two-to-right) that just by coincidence, happens to partially match up with a scytale (rhymes with Italy) encoding.

The thing is, I am retired from this whole matter, and I just don’t have the time to put forth a long post explaining all the details of why.

So, just take it for whatever you think it’s worth. Someone with more time on their hands will probably explain it in more detail at some point.

Good work Paul_Averly. I think I know the probable location that originally inspired Zodiac to create a cipher based on the Skytale method. A Few Words on Secret Writing by Edgar Allan Poe, the cryptographer and author mentioned in the D.C.B Marsh article on October 22nd 1969.
https://www.zodiacciphers.com/zodiac-ne … 340-cipher

AMAZING! Right there in black and white this whole time! Incredible find Richard! Now where are those other 13 letters!?

That is the million dollar question. There is nice symmetry in the design of the 13-Symbol cipher, as there is when the alphabet is placed underneath it and the corresponding letters compared numerically.