What about adding polyphones into 340-like material, to see "how many are too many?"

I am catching up on the older cipher threads here and found this one. Coincidentally, I ran a little experiment a few days ago on a similar matter. I wanted to test if ZKD could decrypt a z340-like cipher where the "+" symbol would be a polyphone (or a wildcard).

I first created a 62 symbol cipher of length 340 (I even included a few bogus filler characters at the end). ZKD was able to decipher it easily.
I then introduced 24 instances of a new "+" symbol that I placed at exactly the same coordinates as in the z340, replacing a variety of different symbols.

O9PP5o97W`flWZ8Om
AQ+@@kAh8OEW9Mg0
nKh8+D7NRVe=anVD
`SLia:C7oX0@++ZDi
`fR+b0X?dKk?+E8LV
7YMgcSNhZaE5o6EYZ
Mo+KM1ocgbm2[BZ8
dE1LZB`6+aCGU+f;K
jQ7+g+5]M?Dl;e1gf
FX@lO+4A+iCG`hj67
D+QAEgal2[jgAMLHW
ghCNB74hWIBoX+;C1
Z5RIB7+fIcgk=XAPH
OeENe7WBd@SRga]++
D9@bJ?a1`a9ih2+
8ga+WZoe`+L:mL?ea
++TIhWZBSoSY4=5NX
Kh3[CH0?E9^de=oCC
Mik2SYZ7gBL[BPXB@
4eh3_=[R[ELYPVb+

ZKD struggled a little bit more but was still able to show a very clear solution in a short amount of time. In this example, a single polyphonic symbol that covers 7% of the cipher is not enough to throw off ZKD. This gives me a good indication that if the z340 is a straight homophonic cipher using the "+" as a polyphone, ZKD would probably be able to easily decipher it.

Depending on the plaintext at hand, there must be a breaking point where the number and frequency of polyphones make the code undecipherable using a technique that assumes a purely homophonic cipher.

_pi – nice.
There are several old threads about the + and I remember doing some pretty diagrams at one point, which I was pleased with. I’ll see if I can find them, to tease an opinion out of ya.
Salut!

..and I didn’t.
Anyway – here’s something else, and this is good a place to dump it as anywhere.
The first incidences of each letter used in the 408 occur in this order, which is significant. Probably.

i l k e n g p o b c a u s t m h f r w d v x y

(There are no incidences of "j" or "q" or "z".)
How interesting.

Can we safely draw some conclusions about the first few lines of the 340, then, if it’s a similar cipher (albeit it "too polyphonic"?) I wonder.

..and I didn’t.
Anyway – here’s something else, and this is good a place to dump it as anywhere.
The first incidences of each letter used in the 408 occur in this order, which is significant. Probably.

i l k e n g p o b c a u s t m h f r w d v x y

(There are no incidences of "j" or "q" or "z".)
How interesting.

Can we safely draw some conclusions about the first few lines of the 340, then, if it’s a similar cipher (albeit it "too polyphonic"?) I wonder.

Hmm….what is interesting to me is that it does not take much imagination to see the very beginning of the cipher solution in just these letters…."I like killing people because". Could be just my brain playing tricks but does not seem like a huge leap to me to see that.

..and I didn’t.
Anyway – here’s something else, and this is good a place to dump it as anywhere.
The first incidences of each letter used in the 408 occur in this order, which is significant. Probably.

i l k e n g p o b c a u s t m h f r w d v x y

(There are no incidences of "j" or "q" or "z".)
How interesting.

Can we safely draw some conclusions about the first few lines of the 340, then, if it’s a similar cipher (albeit it "too polyphonic"?) I wonder.

Hmm….what is interesting to me is that it does not take much imagination to see the very beginning of the cipher solution in just these letters…."I like killing people because". Could be just my brain playing tricks but does not seem like a huge leap to me to see that.

Maybe I cannot follow…but where comes this ilkengpob… from?

QT-

I L K E N G P O B C A U S T M H F R W D V X Y

It is the list of the first occurrences of the A-Z letters in the 408 solution. Here is an image:

"By the way, are the police having a good time with the code? Tell them to cheer up; when they do crack it they will have."
Zodiac claims you will identify him once the 480 is solved. Come on guys.

"By the way, are the police having a good time with the code? Tell them to cheer up; when they do crack it they will have."
Zodiac claims you will identify him once the 480 is solved. Come on guys.

What’s your point? That Zodiac lied? Or that his "idenity" was a glimpse into what makes him tick? Really don’t know what you’re trying to say.

"By the way, are the police having a good time with the code? Tell them to cheer up; when they do crack it they will have."
Zodiac claims you will identify him once the 480 is solved. Come on guys.

1WK – the 408 has been solved, honest. No, it didn’t include information which allowed the naughty Zodiac to be identified. He lied! The rotter.
The 340 has not been solved. Not sure that it ever will be, in truth. Perhaps it will.
There’s no such thing as the 480. Unless you know different.

Thanks for the graphic, glurk, very nice.
What does it mean, this string? Anything? It doesn’t reflect normal distribution – it reflects the text content. Does that reveal anything?

onewhoknows-

I don’t know why you feel compelled to keep posting in the cipher threads with comments that make no point, are off-topic, and come across as somewhat contemptuous and insulting to those
of us who do have an interest in the cipher material. It’s actually quite annoying. If you are going to post, at least show what you mean instead of making mere smart-ass remarks. Thanks.

smithy-

When you first posted the ‘I L K E N G P O B C A U S T M H F R W D V X Y’ string, I didn’t find it too interesting, but after I made that graphic I changed my mind – a little bit. So Zodiac used no
J, Q, or Z in the 408 solution. He didn’t use those letters much in his letters either. But within just the first four lines of the 408 solution, he has used pretty much all of the common letters in
the alphabet.

Does that tell us anything? I don’t know. It obviously is completely dependent on the content of the message itself. But I do wonder if it has any bearing on the 340 solution. Can we reasonably
expect the 340 solution to also use so many different letters within its first four lines? I don’t know that either! Maybe it would be a criteria for looking for "good" 340 solutions.

It’s a new idea in any case, and few of those come along anymore, so thanks for posting it at least. Something to consider, however minor.

-glurk

I don’t mean to be rude. Sorry 408, my mistake. I’m just trying to rattle some cages after 45 years. I’m kind of dwelling in each aspect of the
Zodiac crimes chronologically. I’m at this cipher and the contents of the first two letters sent in by the killer. Zodiac says in the 408, "you will have my identity."
And the last 18 symbols of the 408 are unsolved, correct? And how can one be identified? By name, or address, how about their social security number
or draft board number, (they’re giving you a number, and taking away your name). I consider myself intelligent, but I consider you computer experts and
code solvers smarter than I. And that is why I challenge you…

g: The fact that as the number of cipher lines increases "the more characters, the more chaos….." – might be vaguely useful.
Some characters would be unlikely to appear in the first lines of the thing, for instance.
If we could try and tie that in to any obvious cycling of homophonic substitutions…..?
The probability the "H" substitution, the first character in the the 340 is an X, is pretty much zero.
The probability that an X occurs between the first incidences of H…..?
This kind of thinkimg might be interesting.
Maybe.
Yes, it should at least help in showing potential "good" solutions. Hmmmmm.

The word search idea is about as far as I can get with these but wonder if any of the cipher geniuses have explored the idea that they were written as a playing card, such as a King, Queen, etc. and if so a message could be repeated on the bottom?