Thank you guys! Again, great information.

I Will admit that I am quite young, still in my thirties, and that I am also New to investigating zodiac, seriously, it has only been a number of months since I started researching this case. I appreciate your patience with me in these regards, and truly value your input and help.

So, it appears that tracing the source of the paper is not going to be as easy as one would think…

Though the paper was common, how many locations in the bay area would sell it? Can one of these locations be linked to a person if interest? Was the paper ordered by mail? If so can we look at some type of records regarding individuals in the bay who purchased it?

I am aware that this would involve sifting through massive amounts of information, but perhaps given enough time and effort something could be found…

The ammunition used in the attack near Christmas and the attack at blue rock springs should be easier to trace…

I have found small things in the police reports, example below:

So it seems they did attempt to trace the ammunition, though I am not sure how thoroughly this was done…

I think trying to trace the paper or the ammunition is going to be a difficult task, but which might be quite valuable in the end.

Just to keep on topic I Will keep this thread focused on the paper used for the letters and ciphers.

…attempting to locate sources of the stamps used, or sources regarding where the letters were mailed from might also help…

So, it appears that tracing the source of the paper is not going to be as easy as one would think…

Though the paper was common, how many locations in the bay area would sell it? Can one of these locations be linked to a person if interest?

Seems the "Fifth Avenue" brand was sold exclusively by Woolworths, so I’m pretty sure you could purchase it at any of their locations. Researchers have found it was sold at their stores in the SF area, not sure if it actually was available at all their nationwide stores or through mail order. If not, might help narrow down things a bit.

Woolworths also sold a "Fifth Avenue" ink pen, however those were produced and sold in the 1930’s, not sure how long they carried them. Pens like that last forever though. People actually collect old fountain pens, I used to sell them myself on ebay back when I was a "picker". Some bring good money. I find it interesting these Woolworth Fifth Avenue pens were the same type as on Zodiac’s "Dripping Pen" card. Not sure it means anything though.

Was the paper ordered by mail? If so can we look at some type of records regarding individuals in the bay who purchased it?

Woolworths did have a mail order division so I suppose it could have been purchased that way, however I’d say it’s very doubtful those records still exist. Woolworth also sold guns, Zodiac might have been a dedicated Woolworth’s shopper.

I think trying to trace the paper or the ammunition is going to be a difficult task, but which might be quite valuable in the end.

I doubt you will have any luck tracing the paper or ammo. Just knowing the paper came from Woolworths is about all that could be found I’m sure. An ammo trace would probably require looking at government records which I doubt is allowed.

I think the most interesting take from Zodiac’s use of the "Fifth Avenue" paper is that apparently this was the only time he used it, someone please correct me if I am wrong.

…attempting to locate sources of the stamps used, or sources regarding where the letters were mailed from might also help…

The source of the stamps is the USPO so they were available many places. They used to have stamp vending machines in small stores, used to you could purchase them directly from your mail carrier also, though that might have been a rural route only thing, I know my grandmother used to buy them that way.

I don’t mean to go OT here, but since we are on the subject of purchasing stamps…

One thing that has always bothered me about the DNA profile developed from the stamp is, we don’t know who licked that stamp. It’s my understanding the DNA profile matched on several of the envelopes however, again, someone please correct me if I’m wrong, so that would mean the same person licked the stamps on all of those tested.

Now, bear with me here, that doesn’t mean Zodiac licked those stamps. Going back to my grandparents, where they lived was a very rural area, a long way to town. Down on the main highway there was a General store and next to that store was a Pharmacy. That Pharmacy sold stationary and various items, and they also had a small post office. It was just a desk, but you could send mail, purchase stamps, postal money orders. etc.

Something you could also buy was stamped envelopes. When most people think of buying a stamped envelope, they think of those machine pre-stamped envelopes, but that wasn’t what you got at this post office. They put the stamp on themselves, I bought them on occasion and distinctly remember the guy licking the stamp and putting it on the envelope. It’s possible that’s how Zodiac got his stamped envelopes and that DNA is someone from a post office.

Asking from outside the U.S. – would Woolworths be comparable to chains like Target and Walmart?

Asking from outside the U.S. – would Woolworths be comparable to chains like Target and Walmart?

Yes, very much so. Woolworths and other "5 and dimes" were sort of the forerunners to those stores.

Apart from using common paper stock, it’s possible perhaps that the five-and-dime paper with a ritzy name is part of the Zodiac identity; the blue collar guy with the cheap paper, marker pen and car with mis-matched tyres holding the Bay Area to ransom, ending up killing in high-end Presidio Heights.

Possible a subtle hint there by Zodiac.

I notice that 5th avenue in San Fransisco ends at Presidio park and runs very close to Washington, Cherry, Maple and Jackson.

Very interesting.

One thing that has always bothered me about the DNA profile developed from the stamp is, we don’t know who licked that stamp. It’s my understanding the DNA profile matched on several of the envelopes however, again, someone please correct me if I’m wrong, so that would mean the same person licked the stamps on all of those tested

I got into a debate on this topic in another thread on this site…

I need the hard facts here, and have been having trouble sorting through all the nonsense…

I thought the DNA profile came from a single envelope.

If the same DNA was found on several of the envelopes than yes this would indicate that it is either the author of the letters DNA, or that the author consistently had the same individual licking his envelopes…

Don Cheney would claim that Arthur Leigh allen would have others lick his stamps and envelopes, he claimed the glue made him sick. Cheney mentions Arthur pointing him towards a table stacked with envelopes and requesting that he lick them and seal/stamp them after Arthur had added his correspondence.

Bawart, an officer investigating allen at the time, found this to be very suspicious, thinking cheney was trying to cover for himself if his DNA turned up on those envelopes. He wanted to give cheney a polygraph but cheney showed up hung over and could not take the test.

…the "his name was Arthur Leigh allen" documentary was actually quite revealing, mostly in the sense that it cast doubt on the methods by which Allen was cleared, but also in the sense that it made me very uneasy about Cheney.

…but I suppose you are correct, if all the DNA was from the same source than it does change things a little.

…back to sourcing the paper, how many Woolworths are in Vallejo? Or were in Vallejo in the late 1960s?

From the blue rock springs reports we can deduce that the shooter likely was coming from vallejo, so vallejo seems like a good place to start.

…like I said, sourcing the paper should be difficult, but not impossible.

As for the ammunition, this should actually be much easier to trace, but you are correct, I don’t not have the means to preform such a search. I would simply look for every purchase of 9mm parabellum ammunition made in the bay area, and then begin to narrow things from there.

I have nearly 100 pages of police reports from blue rock springs, and I have found some incredibly interesting points which I would appreciate some input regarding, I will start another thread for that topic, but I would appreciate if you would weigh in when I do.

Mentions latent prints and Woolworths paper…

Section highlighted at bottom of photo.

I need the hard facts here, and have been having trouble sorting through all the nonsense…

I thought the DNA profile came from a single envelope.

Again, I’m pretty sure the original DNA partial profile came from one stamp on one envelope. I do not know if there has been further testing of the envelopes but there must have been if the original profile matched other envelopes.

Don Cheney would claim that Arthur Leigh allen would have others lick his stamps and envelopes, he claimed the glue made him sick. Cheney mentions Arthur pointing him towards a table stacked with envelopes and requesting that he lick them and seal/stamp them after Arthur had added his correspondence.

Bawart, an officer investigating allen at the time, found this to be very suspicious, thinking cheney was trying to cover for himself if his DNA turned up on those envelopes. He wanted to give cheney a polygraph but cheney showed up hung over and could not take the test.

…the "his name was Arthur Leigh allen" documentary was actually quite revealing, mostly in the sense that it cast doubt on the methods by which Allen was cleared, but also in the sense that it made me very uneasy about Cheney.

Yeah, and to answer your question from another thread, yes, I have seen the "His name was Arthur Lee Allen". Some say Cheney developed a hatred for ALA after he found out ALA was a child molester, so therefore would try to further denigrate him by accusing him of being Zodiac. That’s a distinct possibility since Cheney had a young daughter ALA was around. However, that all depends on if Cheney was telling the truth about ALA, was embellishing things he had seen, or just outright lying.

I think ALA is at a dead end unless DNA testing on some different item can be done and it matches him or doesn’t exclude him. I don’t think Cheney was ever subject to DNA testing or fingerprint analysis though. Cheney and his pal Boudreau might be an area that needs further investigation.

…but I suppose you are correct, if all the DNA was from the same source than it does change things a little.

Yeah, you have to kind of go where the facts lead you and the facts concerning DNA lead you away from ALA. Fingerprints too. Still, the circumstantial evidence makes ALA look like Zodiac, which is why I think many of us have a hard time completely dismissing him. I’m not sure there’s much more we can find out about him though.

…back to sourcing the paper, how many Woolworths are in Vallejo? Or were in Vallejo in the late 1960s?

I know there was one, and probably only one due to the size of Vallejo. You have to remember any town of any size in those days had a Woolworth. Trying to find where he bought the paper is useless, IMO.

Others have already looked into this and the only real thing to take from the use of the Fifth Avenue paper is that he only used it once. The other letters were on a more ordinary paper, Eaton, that was also sold at Woolworth. Those who have looked into it believe because this Fifth Avenue letter was sent so quickly after the police chief asked Zodiac to send more letters, it shows he wasn’t at home and had to run to a Woolworth to buy paper. That’s a sign he was in San Francisco, but didn’t have a home there.

From the blue rock springs reports we can deduce that the shooter likely was coming from vallejo, so vallejo seems like a good place to start.

Vallejo really isn’t that far from San Francisco. Some have noted that in one of the Stein letters Zodiac says "the SF cops" and believe a local would have just referred to the as "the cops", not specifically as "SF cops", and I tend to agree.

I believe the phone call he made after the BRS murder shows he wasn’t from Vallejo or Benicia. He called BRS "the public park", like he didn’t know the name of it, which a local would.

I’d say he was pretty familiar with the areas, Vallejo, Benicia, San Fran and Lake Berryesa, but he didn’t live near any of them, at least not for a long time. I think he didn’t shit where he ate, if you know what I mean. He was from somewhere in the area of all those places

…like I said, sourcing the paper should be difficult, but not impossible.

As for the ammunition, this should actually be much easier to trace, but you are correct, I don’t not have the means to preform such a search. I would simply look for every purchase of 9mm parabellum ammunition made in the bay area, and then begin to narrow things from there.

I wish you luck, but I think your time would be better spent elsewhere.

I have nearly 100 pages of police reports from blue rock springs, and I have found some incredibly interesting points which I would appreciate some input regarding, I will start another thread for that topic, but I would appreciate if you would weigh in when I do.

Will do, you are aware of the police reports available at Tom Voight’s site, aren’t you?

woolworths also sold a "Fifth Avenue" ink pen, however those were produced and sold in the 1930’s, not sure how long they carried them. Pens like that last forever though. People actually collect old fountain pens, I used to sell them myself on ebay back when I was a "picker". Some bring good money. I find it interesting these Woolworth Fifth Avenue pens were the same type as on Zodiac’s "Dripping Pen" card. Not sure it means anything though

Great observation! I do not think I have heard this mentioned before.

I quoted you in this thread viewtopic.php?f=81&t=3737 regarding your observation of the pen, I hope that is ok.

I need the hard facts here, and have been having trouble sorting through all the nonsense…

I thought the DNA profile came from a single envelope.

Again, I’m pretty sure the original DNA partial profile came from one stamp on one envelope. I do not know if there has been further testing of the envelopes but there must have been if the original profile matched other envelopes.

Don Cheney would claim that Arthur Leigh allen would have others lick his stamps and envelopes, he claimed the glue made him sick. Cheney mentions Arthur pointing him towards a table stacked with envelopes and requesting that he lick them and seal/stamp them after Arthur had added his correspondence.

Bawart, an officer investigating allen at the time, found this to be very suspicious, thinking cheney was trying to cover for himself if his DNA turned up on those envelopes. He wanted to give cheney a polygraph but cheney showed up hung over and could not take the test.

…the "his name was Arthur Leigh allen" documentary was actually quite revealing, mostly in the sense that it cast doubt on the methods by which Allen was cleared, but also in the sense that it made me very uneasy about Cheney.

Yeah, and to answer your question from another thread, yes, I have seen the "His name was Arthur Lee Allen". Some say Cheney developed a hatred for ALA after he found out ALA was a child molester, so therefore would try to further denigrate him by accusing him of being Zodiac. That’s a distinct possibility since Cheney had a young daughter ALA was around. However, that all depends on if Cheney was telling the truth about ALA, was embellishing things he had seen, or just outright lying.

I think ALA is at a dead end unless DNA testing on some different item can be done and it matches him or doesn’t exclude him. I don’t think Cheney was ever subject to DNA testing or fingerprint analysis though. Cheney and his pal Boudreau might be an area that needs further investigation.

…but I suppose you are correct, if all the DNA was from the same source than it does change things a little.

Yeah, you have to kind of go where the facts lead you and the facts concerning DNA lead you away from ALA. Fingerprints too. Still, the circumstantial evidence makes ALA look like Zodiac, which is why I think many of us have a hard time completely dismissing him. I’m not sure there’s much more we can find out about him though.

…back to sourcing the paper, how many Woolworths are in Vallejo? Or were in Vallejo in the late 1960s?

I know there was one, and probably only one due to the size of Vallejo. You have to remember any town of any size in those days had a Woolworth. Trying to find where he bought the paper is useless, IMO.

Others have already looked into this and the only real thing to take from the use of the Fifth Avenue paper is that he only used it once. The other letters were on a more ordinary paper, Eaton, that was also sold at Woolworth. Those who have looked into it believe because this Fifth Avenue letter was sent so quickly after the police chief asked Zodiac to send more letters, it shows he wasn’t at home and had to run to a Woolworth to buy paper. That’s a sign he was in San Francisco, but didn’t have a home there.

From the blue rock springs reports we can deduce that the shooter likely was coming from vallejo, so vallejo seems like a good place to start.

Vallejo really isn’t that far from San Francisco. Some have noted that in one of the Stein letters Zodiac says "the SF cops" and believe a local would have just referred to the as "the cops", not specifically as "SF cops", and I tend to agree.

I believe the phone call he made after the BRS murder shows he wasn’t from Vallejo or Benicia. He called BRS "the public park", like he didn’t know the name of it, which a local would.

I’d say he was pretty familiar with the areas, Vallejo, Benicia, San Fran and Lake Berryesa, but he didn’t live near any of them, at least not for a long time. I think he didn’t shit where he ate, if you know what I mean. He was from somewhere in the area of all those places

…like I said, sourcing the paper should be difficult, but not impossible.

As for the ammunition, this should actually be much easier to trace, but you are correct, I don’t not have the means to preform such a search. I would simply look for every purchase of 9mm parabellum ammunition made in the bay area, and then begin to narrow things from there.

I wish you luck, but I think your time would be better spent elsewhere.

I have nearly 100 pages of police reports from blue rock springs, and I have found some incredibly interesting points which I would appreciate some input regarding, I will start another thread for that topic, but I would appreciate if you would weigh in when I do.

Will do, you are aware of the police reports available at Tom Voight’s site, aren’t you?

I made my last post before I noticed your last post was present. I am going to read through this real quick and then respond. My last posts were not related

yeah, and to answer your question from another thread, yes, I have seen the "His name was Arthur Lee Allen". Some say Cheney developed a hatred for ALA after he found out ALA was a child molester, so therefore would try to further denigrate him by accusing him of being Zodiac. That’s a distinct possibility since Cheney had a young daughter ALA was around. However, that all depends on if Cheney was telling the truth about ALA, was embellishing things he had seen, or just outright lying.

I think ALA is at a dead end unless DNA testing on some different item can be done and it matches him or doesn’t exclude him. I don’t think Cheney was ever subject to DNA testing or fingerprint analysis though. Cheney and his pal Boudreau might be an area that needs further investigation

I am not in any kind of a rush to investigate Allen any further than he already has been, my main point was simply that the means by which allen was excluded can easily be put into question, and perhaps Allen should not have been discounted so hastily.

I think it is completely plausible that Cheney was attempting to frame Allen. I have speculated on this possibly many times. Allen being exposed as a child molester even gives cheney more motive in the matter.

In the "his name is Arthur Leigh allen" documentary the documentarian asks Bawart (a detective who was investigating Allen at one point) if DNA was ever obtained from Cheney, and George Bawart is obviously taken back by this question, and in a mix of disappointment and regret for not thinking of the idea sooner, bawart replies "no".

Norman Boudreau fits the physical description of zodiac, and he was defending allen in that film, he even made a comment about the bombs being found in Allen’s basement after he had died as being "left there by a friend of allen who came to visit just prior to his death" he then goes on to comment that "they are probably an important clue". Other than these comments there is not much to implicate Norman, but I surly think he should have at least been looked into.

When it comes to Don Cheney on the other hand, I feel it is a severe mistake that he was never fully investigated, because as I have mentioned before, there is plenty of circumstantial evidence that would suggest investigation would be well worth while. I found some of Cheney’s hand writing on another site and was astounded at how much it resembled that hand writing of zodiac… …another thing I noticed about that Cheney letter, he never uses the letter "k", on the envelope or in the letter itself, there are no handwritten letter "k"s. Any way, I don’t want to go over everything that makes Cheney suspicious again.

I think it is crucial to maintain an open mind, and to thoroughly investigate every potential lead regardless of your personal feelings on the matter, so, while I may not personally think that Allen was zodiac, I still feel it is important to leave no question unasked, and to not cement in ones mind that "it could not have been Allen". Its crucial to remain open to all possibilities and to investigate every suspect and lead with precision and objectivity. Since this is basically a cold case one would have the necessary time needed to investigate in this manner.

I know there was one, and probably only one due to the size of Vallejo. You have to remember any town of any size in those days had a Woolworth. Trying to find where he bought the paper is useless, IMO.

Others have already looked into this and the only real thing to take from the use of the Fifth Avenue paper is that he only used it once. The other letters were on a more ordinary paper, Eaton, that was also sold at Woolworth. Those who have looked into it believe because this Fifth Avenue letter was sent so quickly after the police chief asked Zodiac to send more letters, it shows he wasn’t at home and had to run to a Woolworth to buy paper. That’s a sign he was in San Francisco, but didn’t have a home there.

I don’t feel it is useless, just incredibly difficult, I am sure that if you persist where others had given up that you may obtain some valuable evidence.

…and if there was only one Woolworths in Vallejo that would be great.
…It would appear that zodiac was a frequent shopper at Woolworths, no? Using Woolworths paper, using a card featuring a Woolworths pen, and so on. Perhaps this could be valuable.

I mean, I an pretty sure zodiac was living vallejo, maybe even closer to san francisco like Fremont or Newark, but Vallejo seems like the most likely location.

You are speculating that zodiac bought the paper while on the move at the request to write more letters, and simply went to Woolworths for convenience, which is possible, or perhaps Woolworths itself could be a potential lead.

Regardless, I am not discouraged in sourcing the paper, the stamps, or the ammunition used by zodaic.

Vallejo really isn’t that far from San Francisco. Some have noted that in one of the Stein letters Zodiac says "the SF cops" and believe a local would have just referred to the as "the cops", not specifically as "SF cops", and I tend to agree.

I believe the phone call he made after the BRS murder shows he wasn’t from Vallejo or Benicia. He called BRS "the public park", like he didn’t know the name of it, which a local would.

I’d say he was pretty familiar with the areas, Vallejo, Benicia, San Fran and Lake Berryesa, but he didn’t live near any of them, at least not for a long time. I think he didn’t shit where he ate, if you know what I mean. He was from somewhere in the area of all those places

Vallejo is pretty far north, and is actually further from san francisco than most of the other outlying cities in the bay area.

Having lived in the bay area most of my life I just get the feeling that vallejo was his most likely location.

Again, vallejo would just be a good likely starting point, like I said before, one must remain open and consider all possibilities and not allow oneself to commit to notions based off of speculation, personal opinion or gut feeling.

…he might have been closer To SF, like in Berkley or Richmond, or he could have been further out like Fairfield or Vacaville, there are a lot of potential locations, but you have To start somewhere, and vallejo seems like a good place to start based on police reports, witness statements, and probability

you are aware of the police reports available at Tom Voight’s site, aren’t you?

Not particularly, one of my friends sent me a PDF full of thousands of pages of zodiac police material, most of it is from vallejo police department, though just about every case is included.

Does this site have all of the reports from every police department working on zodiac? Including the material from riverside and cases like Donna lass? Because that would be nice…

you are aware of the police reports available at Tom Voight’s site, aren’t you?

Not particularly, one of my friends sent me a PDF full of thousands of pages of zodiac police material, most of it is from vallejo police department, though just about every case is included.

Does this site have all of the reports from every police department working on zodiac? Including the material from riverside and cases like Donna lass? Because that would be nice…

They’re probably here somewhere but might just be link’s to TV’s site. From what I can tell, morf and TV work together a lot.

Here are links to the police reports at TV’s site. If you could look through them and see if you have something that isn’t in these reports, it would be greatly appreciated, particularly more on Stine.

Jensen/Faraday

http://www.zodiackiller.com/LHRPR1.html

Ferrin/Mageau

http://www.zodiackiller.com/DFR1.html

Hartnell/Sheperd

http://www.zodiackiller.com/LBReport1.html

Stine

http://www.zodiackiller.com/StineReport1.html

And no, there is no police report on CJB or Lass that I know of, I don’t believe they have ever been released. CJB’s autopsy results are available online. Not sure where, I remember seeing them. TV’s site does have pages about CJB and Lass, with a couple other possible victims. Here’s a link to the main page of victims, it’s always good to have more resources, might see something you were not aware of.

http://www.zodiackiller.com/Victims.html

Lots of other stuff there if you poke around.