Or he doesn’t even need a car as he could easily take the Greyhound bus from SFO into the downtown terminal where there are lockers available. He could store whatever he wanted in one for change! From there, he could have walked to a nearby hotel or motel (he could have even stayed in the famous "Hotel California").

Sorry, the "Hotel California" is not a real hotel. Its BELIEVED by many to be a reference to the Church of Satan but it is actually a metaphor for life in LA at that time. I live in LA and there is a real Hotel California here in Santa Monica- built after the fact.

My old band once did a cover of the Eagles song, but called it "Hotel Gary Busey." It was awesome!! Wish we would have recorded it.

We have no proof of that, other than the fact that some kids saw him wiping the cab down- leading us to make the assumption that he was afraid of leaving prints.

SFPD is confident in the prints lifted from the cab. Did Z stop and wipe down the cab because he was polishing it up for news photos?

Witnesses said he exited from the back seat. The angle that Stein was shot in was consistent with a passenger sitting in the back.

DOJ Pert chart states Z was sitting up front: http://zodiackiller.com/1971_doj_pert.pdf

Only because the kids didn’t see him leaving the back seat and clambering into the front. They arrived at the window after The Zodiac shot Stine. Thus based on their testimony and a lack of anything else, it’s fair to say they would have thought he sat up front. Doubtful Stine, though, would allow someone like The Zodiac, or anyone else, to sit up front, not in SF at that time, and it’s doubtful The Zodiac would want such a position anyway. Back seat would give him a better platform from which to kill his victim. Seems he preferred that angle anyway.

Front seating is bogus imo.

Only because the kids didn’t see him leaving the back seat and clambering into the front.

Show me a section of the police report that says the kids told them Z rode in the front.

Doubtful Stine, though, would allow someone like The Zodiac, or anyone else, to sit up front, not in SF at that time

Did you know Stine? did he tell you he never let people ride in the front?
Do you know more about the crime scene than the people that investigated it and the DOJ report?

and it’s doubtful The Zodiac would want such a position anyway. Back seat would give him a better platform from which to kill his victim.

That actually re-enforces the entire point of this entire thread.

Doubtful Stine, though, would allow someone like The Zodiac, or anyone else, to sit up front, not in SF at that time

Did you know Stine? did he tell you he never let people ride in the front?
Do you know more about the crime scene than the people that investigated it and the DOJ report?

FWIW I asked Paul’s Widow in chat if Paul would have allowed a passenger to ride in front and she said, quite emphatically I think, no.

Doubtful Stine, though, would allow someone like The Zodiac, or anyone else, to sit up front, not in SF at that time

Did you know Stine? did he tell you he never let people ride in the front?
Do you know more about the crime scene than the people that investigated it and the DOJ report?

FWIW I asked Paul’s Widow in chat if Paul would have allowed a passenger to ride in front and she said, quite emphatically I think, no.

Did you ask if he would if he knew the person?

I’ll check the chat logs tomorrow.

Actually I’ve done it now. Was easier than I thought. Thanks doranchak.

traveller1st 04:37:06
Carol Hi, my name is Mark, I am so sorry for your loss. Can I ask, was it Paul’s habit or the habit at the time to have passengers ride in the front seat or was the back the norm? Sorry if it;s already been asked. I’m very humbled to make your aquiantance.

Carol 04:38:58
No, Paul would not let passengers ride in the front! Paul was not a fighter either! He knew his life was at tack that night

I’ll check the chat logs tomorrow.

Actually I’ve done it now. Was easier than I thought. Thanks doranchak.

traveller1st 04:37:06
Carol Hi, my name is Mark, I am so sorry for your loss. Can I ask, was it Paul’s habit or the habit at the time to have passengers ride in the front seat or was the back the norm? Sorry if it;s already been asked. I’m very humbled to make your aquiantance.

Carol 04:38:58
No, Paul would not let passengers ride in the front! Paul was not a fighter either! He knew his life was at tack that night

Interesting, thanks for finding that.

Still, the evidence that Z rode in the front seat was not something buried in a police report, it was a key bullet point on a perp chart. Makes me think LE had good reason to believe Z rode in the front seat. Maybe blood splatter evidence?

I wonder what she meant by "he knew his life was in tack that night."…

Show me a section of the police report that says the kids told them Z rode in the front.

That’s my point. They didn’t. Which means no one, no one at all, saw him actually sitting in the front seat, while the cab was moving, as it has been imaginatively posited by various individuals over the years. Which means, then, that there is, at best, a 50/50% probability split between front and back seat, which then leads to (below).

Did you know Stine? did he tell you he never let people ride in the front?

How would I know Stine? He died ten years before I was born. But if one knows anything about crime in that city, during that socially-tumultuous era, one need not personally know Stine to realize it’s unlikely he would have allowed strangers to ride in the front seat of his cab. In fact, it may have even been a rule of Yellow Cab company to place passengers in the back seat. Even if not, it’s still quite unlikely Stine would allow some stranger to ride along immediately adjacent to him as he drove. Not very common regardless.

Even more to consider..why sit up front where The Zodiac could be better seen? The back seat would offer more darkness and more cab to obscure the view of a potential view. Think about it.

Not to mention customs, as in the acceptable custom of cabbies seating people in the back, and people customarily CHOOSING to sit in the back.

As you can see, then, everything is trending away from the "theory" The Zodiac sat up front while the cab was moving, the CDoJ pert chart aside.

But hey, since I cannot prove, absolutely, that Stine "never" allowed people to sit in the front seat, that thus means he must have let The Zodiac sit in the front seat. How else will your theory work? And what is that theory? That The Zodiac killed a cabbie on a mere whim? Because Stine said something to anger him? Because Stine recognized this guy he knew as The Zodiac? And then what happened? He shot Stine and the cab rolled fifty yards to a nice, complete stop at Cherry and Washington?

Is that what it’s come to? Guess it’s better than claiming The Zodiac was a brilliant, maniacal mustachioed surgeon vivisecting decaying prostitutes for organs as part of some Royal conspiracy to stop Martians from invading the British Empire, or whatever serves as thought among Ripperologists these days….

Do you know more about the crime scene than the people that investigated it and the DOJ report?

No, but I can use my brain to make logical deductions. That’s still allowed, right?

That actually re-enforces the entire point of this entire thread.

What was the point of this thread? That someone said the murder of Paul Stine was not preplanned? Based on what, exactly? More imaginative speculation? Because it’s so much fun to treat the vicious, cold and apparently calculating murder of a good man like an online version of Clue: Home Edition?

Your hostility surprises and deeply saddens me. We’re here to honestly and intelligently discuss the case, and yet you cannot handle even the slightest criticism of your pet "theories".

Let me put it to you another way: the DOJ likely said the Zodiac sat up front because the kids saw him operating up there. They did not see him in the back seat, either before or after the cab stopped. Thus, an eyewitness can position The Zodiac in the front seat, only. But that’s not the same as saying he actually rode in the front, is it? No. If you examine WHY the CDoJ may have said he sat up front, and then consider why The Zodiac would have ridden in the back, it becomes more than obvious that what the California DoJ claimed with respect to where The Zodiac sat while the cab rolled towards its destination is purely lazy speculation.

Why would The Zodiac sit up front when he had a "thing" for shooting people to the side of their heads? Not a very advantageous way to kill your quarry, then, if you have to contort yourself to the side to make the shot, right? Or did Der Zodiac miss that class of Assassination 101? And why would Stine, of all people, let some guy sit up front, especially in a city contorted and replete with brazen, brutal robberies? Stine would have had to have been a damned moron to place a potential robber right next to him, where Stine would have less room to maneuver and escape, right? Or are we suggesting a cabbie would prefer to have his robber right next to him instead of sequestered in the back seat, because a robbery is obviously not a murder, and while Stine would have perchance thought he might well be robbed, it probably never occurred to him he would be shot from behind, from the back seat, for nothing greater than a madman’s desire for public glory.

In other words…the back seat is "bad" for the cabbie with respect to pointless head-shot murder (and good for for The Zodiac), but the front seat isn’t all that great for the cabbie with respect to knifing or ordinary robbery, the latter of which was far more common than the former…

Ultimately and for all practical purposes….front seat, back seat, both are about equally bad vis-à-vis an unexpected and quite quick handgun blitz to the head. But if you’re worried about keeping potential criminals (any male human) at a distance, why seat them up front eight next to you?

Again, there is NO eyewitness that places Stine riding in either the front or back of Stine’s cab. Seat placement can be made by only three attributes of the crime, then: the children’s testimony, fingerprints, and ballistics. One might infer from blood spatter voids as well, but I have not read of evidence indicating blood spatter voids or lack thereof on the back seat. And from what I recall reading or hearing of the ballistics, if anything, there doesn’t seem to be any preference for back or front seat. Lack of fingerprints is not probative, either.

Regardless, as you’ve said, all of us are operating on the same shallow pool of publicly-available information, and such pool does not explicitly depict where Stine was sitting while the cab traveled from "Geary and Mason" to Cherry and Washington. It’s all purely speculation. And I speculate, using only rudimentary known facts and simple household logic, that The Zodiac was sitting in the back. Deal with it already.

Now, finally, I must apologize if I’ve trod too heavily upon your precious pet theory or theories, but I have no time or patience for such mindless, useless animosity and quiet hatred, so please do keep such base proclivities to yourself henceforth.

Thanks, I guess.

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

It helps to read the point of the topic before writing pages of blabber based on personal opinions. Point of this thread is that the PH crime seems to sloppy to be pre-planned.
Do I have proof of this? NO! But I ask that we look at this crime and think outside the box of what we have heard for 45 years.

Lake Berryessa was an example of a planned out Zodiac crime. He made a costume, had pre-cut rope and took precautions.
PH seems so damn sloppy that I have the theory it was not pre-planned.

Is that impossible? Is it impossible Z lived downtown and kept his car in PH, taking a cab to pick it up?
I’m fine with anyone believing it was all planned out, but to act like you know for sure what went down, 100%, you are a fool or a liar.

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

It helps to read the point of the topic before writing pages of blabber based on personal opinions. Point of this thread is that the PH crime seems to sloppy to be pre-planned.
Do I have proof of this? NO! But I ask that we look at this crime and think outside the box of what we have heard for 45 years.

Lake Berryessa was an example of a planned out Zodiac crime. He made a costume, had pre-cut rope and took precautions.
PH seems so damn sloppy that I have the theory it was not pre-planned.

Is that impossible? Is it impossible Z lived downtown and kept his car in PH, taking a cab to pick it up?
I’m fine with anyone believing it was all planned out, but to act like you know for sure what went down, 100%, you are a fool or a liar.

At least Z had his gun with him and unlocked its security mechanism. IMO this action is enough to make it first degree.

The question is rather a different one..did Z pick ‘Paul Stine’ as his victim or did he kill ‘a cab driver’? It’d help if we knew about the connection between Paul Stine and the Vallejo victims, if there is one at all.

QT

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

It helps to read the point of the topic before writing pages of blabber based on personal opinions.

……..

Lake Berryessa was an example of a planned out Zodiac crime.

careful, one person’s theory is another’s blabber.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/archiv … 80617.html

When Paul Lee Stine first moved to San Francisco he needed a place. He found a residence Hotel on Eddy Street. He lived there, Also living there was Darlene Ferrin and Mike Mageau. If I spelled that right. Darlene’s future husband lived in a residence building 2 doors down. Darlene Ferrin worked for the old AT and T phone company. Now Pacific Bell. Paul Lee Stine used to drive Darlene Ferrin around in his cab. When she left San Francisco. She left with her future husband and Mike Mageau and they all moved out to Vallejo. Joe Stine, Paul Lee Stine’s Brother lived in Vallejo and I believe worked at the shipyards. Anyway this can be all verified by Mike Mageau and Darlene Ferrin’s 1st husband who is still alive. The victim’s knew each other.

That would be an interesting connection regarding the Stine case.

QT

I for one think it was planned to a degree.

If it is true, that the three victims lodged in the same place, that would be something.

This crime baffles me, it was utterly reckless, yet brilliant (not in a glorifying way) but just the nerve Z showed that night.