Hoax theory problems by smithy.

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haks Traveller, Im enjoying the read

There are indeed holes in the Zodiac hoax theory, but probably no more than some of the more egregious Zodiac theories, ie. I don’t believe they are insurmountable.

No, I don’t believe they are insurmountable, either.
It’s certainly hard work trying to, uh, surmount them, though, ain’t it.

The biggest hole is obviously that cartoonish character who happened to appear at LB. Or rather, he isn’t a hole as such – but the combination of him AND the writing on the car door is a bit much, I think.

In order for the hoax theory to work one must either accept an immense coincidence – or go to work on B. Hartnell’s statement(s). The real problem here is the Zodiac symbol on the attacker’s costume. Without that he’s "just" a homicidal freak in some sort of executioner’s garb.

To me the most obvious weakness of the theory itself – disregarding the details, such as LB – is that is presupposes an LE representative as the hoaxer/letter writer. For my money it’s just too far fetched. You don’t need a rational motive, by all means – the whole thing is crazy to begin with – but the likelihood of an LE representative being a complete loon is far less obvious than him being a crook. And as I see it he’d have to be a loon – because there is no rational motive here. If Snook did it, then Snook was nuts – there really is no other explanation, is there? Provide me with a reason why a crook, who happened to be an LE representative, would want to create a "Zodiac" persona in order to cover up…something…and I might just, possibly, be willing to listen.

Well, between us, I suspect there have been plenty of self-aggrandizing fruit loops in law enforcement down the years.
Nope, I think the biggest weakness is indeed your first point – LB – and our "I’m the Zodiac even though I don’t know my own name" friend.
That’s a fabulous coincidence.
Monumental.
So it’s obviously not a coincidence.

The biggest hole is obviously that cartoonish character who happened to appear at LB. Or rather, he isn’t a hole as such – but the combination of him AND the writing on the car door is a bit much, I think.

In order for the hoax theory to work one must either accept an immense coincidence – or go to work on B. Hartnell’s statement(s). The real problem here is the Zodiac symbol on the attacker’s costume. Without that he’s "just" a homicidal freak in some sort of executioner’s garb.

Hey Norse–Just throwing in my 2 cents…

The word "hoax" has always bothered me. I do not agree with it. Although, I must say, I do think there was at least one other out there who was involving himself and taking credit and writing a letter or two. Maybe, just maybe, this person was responsible for LB.

The Lake Berryessa attack really is the most horrifying.

I have expressed my concerns long before Horan and I can admit, it is not popular, but it is what it is and can be considered or not.

This person only used the symbol. The symbol (circle-cross) was mentioned several times in the Vallejo newspapers–they call it a rifle site. His ciphers were published with this same "rifle site/circle-cross" in them.

Zodiac only used his name ONCE in a letter (Aug) prior to the Lake Berryessa attack. I’m pretty sure this letter was not published.

This person never once said he was "Zodiac". Not to Bryan and Cecelia, and not to the cops when he called from Napa.

A different voice. Officer Slaight of Napa described him as young sounding, as did Bryan. Slover of Vallejo–"mature"…later..sounds like Richard Gaikowski. Hardly a young voice.

While some will argue this person fits the Zodiac description of Mageau, the teenagers in S.F. and Fouke, I (not surprisingly) would have to argue that…and have.

The car door….handwriting is subjective. Get me a print.

Lake Berryessa is truly not Zodiac’s MO. And only 2 weeks later he kills and feels the need to PROVE this one, Paul, was him.

If nothing else, it sure grabs my attention and I cannot help but at least consider, the man at Lake Berryessa was not THE Zodiac killer.

A "hoax"? No. A copy-cat. Very possible.

I’d say it was not him – but there is two reasons convincing me to a maximum – confession on the car door related to brs and lhr AND the curvy f. 100% a Z crime.

For what its worth I think the Lake Berryessa Attack was definitely Zodiac.
1. Hartnell said the man had a unique way of talking, a slow drawn out speech pattern. Nancy Slover described it as deliberate, monotone, as if reading from a script.
2. The writing on the car door is a good match.
3. But the biggest clue of all, was the Napa receiver was off the hook, the Zodiac had learnt from his mistake at Blue Rock Springs Park, when it rang and alerted the passer by to him + his car, and he wasn’t going to make the same mistake twice.
4 He said at the foot of ‘The Debut of Zodiac Letter’ on August 4th " I was not happy to see that I did not get front page coverage". So what better way to dress up in a dramatic costume and write on the car door in reaction, whether or not he had left somebody alive.
5. Copycat killers are rare and attempting to murder two people in cold blood at 6.30pm, just to imitate another killer in the relevant timeline is highly unlikely.
6. Napa is a near direct route back to the Vallejo/Benicia area.
7. If the Zodiac had not sent the swatch of Paul Stine’s shirt, people would have said the MO was not the Zodiac’s also and we may still even debating this 45 years later.

Good points on both sides, really – I change my mind about LB every five minutes it seems!

If there is one thing which truly stands out and says "not Zodiac!" to me, it’s the conversation he has with BH and CS. I can’t quite explain why, be it said. But there is something about this – the details, the very strategy itself – which doesn’t sit right with me.

Or so I think now – give me five minutes and I’ll tell you something else…

For what its worth I think the Lake Berryessa Attack was definitely Zodiac.
1. Hartnell said the man had a unique way of talking, a slow drawn out speech pattern. Nancy Slover described it as deliberate, monotone, as if reading from a script.
2. The writing on the car door is a good match.
3. But the biggest clue of all, was the Napa receiver was off the hook, the Zodiac had learnt from his mistake at Blue Rock Springs Park, when it rang and alerted the passer by to him + his car, and he wasn’t going to make the same mistake twice.
4 He said at the foot of ‘The Debut of Zodiac Letter’ on August 4th " I was not happy to see that I did not get front page coverage". So what better way to dress up in a dramatic costume and write on the car door in reaction, whether or not he had left somebody alive.
5. Copycat killers are rare and attempting to murder two people in cold blood at 6.30pm, just to imitate another killer in the relevant timeline is highly unlikely.
6. Napa is a near direct route back to the Vallejo/Benicia area.
7. If the Zodiac had not sent the swatch of Paul Stine’s shirt, people would have said the MO was not the Zodiac’s also and we may still even debating this 45 years later.

Yup. Well considered and explained. The writing on the car is a very good match in not only character shape but also formatting. There are elements of it that are entirely consistent to elements used throughout Zodiac’s writing. I would be and am convinced on that alone and since I am convinced that it was the same person who wrote the other letters then he is a killer. Our killer. The Zodiac.

To believe that all of the letters and written material and blood soaked evidence from a crime scene were created/collated/collected and mailed by someone that never actually killed anyone but rather ‘borrowed’ from crimes and scenes of random killers is … I don’t have any words to describe it. No wait, I do, it’s insanity.

Entertain it, yes, consider it, yes, but then come to a rational conclusion. This isn’t a Sherlock Holmes novel.

For me, it’s simple. The killer at Berryessa wrote on the car door, that writing is linked to every other z letter by writing experts, and in the Stine letter specifically, zodiac is linked to the crime scene via the shirt piece, therefore, the Berryessa and SFPD crimes are definitely by zodiac, and zodiac wrote all of the confirmed letters. If you wanted to make a case that LHR was not really z, that would be your best shot, but then we would have to believe there are two deranged individuals running around a single small town killing people and writing letters, and I don’t buy that personally. For me, the facts are clear z did all the attacks and mailed all of the verified z letters

For what its worth I think the Lake Berryessa Attack was definitely Zodiac.
1. Hartnell said the man had a unique way of talking, a slow drawn out speech pattern. Nancy Slover described it as deliberate, monotone, as if reading from a script.
Yet the voice was described by Hartnell and Officer Slaight as young, possibly a student. Slover’s guy…not so.
2. The writing on the car door is a good match.
I agree., but I think handwriting has been proven to be a lot like the composite. It fits lots of folks.
3. But the biggest clue of all, was the Napa receiver was off the hook, the Zodiac had learnt from his mistake at Blue Rock Springs Park, when it rang and alerted the passer by to him + his car, and he wasn’t going to make the same mistake twice.
Could be, or could be this guy just left it off the hook.
4 He said at the foot of ‘The Debut of Zodiac Letter’ on August 4th " I was not happy to see that I did not get front page coverage". So what better way to dress up in a dramatic costume and write on the car door in reaction, whether or not he had left somebody alive.
But, if he killed them, there was no one to tell about his dramatic costume. And why didn’t he jump all over this? This was his most gruesome, yet fails to ever bring it up? Not only that–Zodiac later claims an AUGUST kill, yet this is not written on the door.
5. Copycat killers are rare and attempting to murder two people in cold blood at 6.30pm, just to imitate another killer in the relevant timeline is highly unlikely.
I’m not sure what 6:30 has to do with anything. I think it’s more of making Zodiac look guilty of the crime and not himself.
6. Napa is a near direct route back to the Vallejo/Benicia area.
And the many other bay area cities…not to mention the mental hospital in Napa.
7. If the Zodiac had not sent the swatch of Paul Stine’s shirt, people would have said the MO was not the Zodiac’s also and we may still even debating this 45 years later.
So true. That is, imo, why he did what he did. To prove he was the killer.

My replies in blue…obviously.

To me, it is so out of the realm of everything we know about Zodiac.

Look at how he described LHR and BRS. What he did, how the victims were dressed, how their bodies were left, where he shot them. He was very descriptive with his "proof".

Lake Berryessa—NOTHING, not one mention in his later letters. Some would say proof is on the car door, but what about his bragging rights…his rubbing it in? It was the most brazen, gruesome attack and we get nothing from the man who loves to tell us all about his murders and his diabolical ways. Not in one letter do we get anything that was said about Bryan or Cecelia, their conversation, how scared Cecelia was, his personal experience of that crime–how easy it was, tying them up, how he got away with it.

There are a lot of things about Lake Berryessa that are very much not like Zodiac, but again, I don’t classify it as a "hoax".

Tahoe, you mentioned that zodiac’s voice at Berryessa sounded young like a students and Slover’s caller not so much. You could almost go on the other direction and say the caller at BRS was the fake, afterall he didn’t leave a writing sample to compare with the later z letters. The Berryessa killer left writing at the scene which matched the zodiac letter writing, so therefore he was indeed the letter writer(unless you don’t like the writing expert’s opinion that it’s a match).