The history….he couldn’t keep her…she was unfaithful
Put her in a pumpkin shell…..a chastity belt.

Hi, Wier – you’re saying this is how the rhyme is generally interpreted? That would be a good explanation for the pumpkin.

Hi Jem….Yes, it goes back to the middle ages. Don’t know whether there’s anything to it or not but it might also offer up one of the reasons why Z began killing or what set him off. Interesting in the context of him targetting couples, with most of his ire directed at the female.

A stretch possibly but perhaps worth a mention….. On the halloween card Z places a pumpkin over the midsection of the Skeleton. When removed there was nothing beneath…so why or what was the reason for including it?

We all know the old verse ( many of which have some history behind them)

Peter, Peter, Pumpkin eater
Had a wife and couldn’t keep her
put her in a pumpkin shell
and there he kept her very well.

The history….he couldn’t keep her…she was unfaithful
Put her in a pumpkin shell…..a chastity belt.

Perhaps no more than coincidence, but interesting placement of the pumpkin.

Zodiac possibly chose the circle and crosshair referencing pi, even Halloween is the 31st.
Other interesting facts you already know;
3.1 4 15 9 26 = CADOIZ = ZODIAC
3 14 is Gaikowski’s birthdate
3 14 is the date of the Mikado opening in 1885
3 + 14 = 17 the number of symbols per line in his ciphers

I’ve always wonderd if the symbols on the halloween card and envelope could be native american symbols and could they be connected with someone with the native American AIM movement. http://siouxme.com/lodge/alcatraz_np.html http://www.aimovement.org/moipr/aim40anniversary.html http://www.zodiackiller.com/HalloweenCardEnvelope.html http://www.zodiackiller.com/HalloweenCard.html

I’ve always wonderd if the symbols on the halloween card and envelope could be native american symbols and could they be connected with someone with the native American AIM movement. http://siouxme.com/lodge/alcatraz_np.html http://www.aimovement.org/moipr/aim40anniversary.html http://www.zodiackiller.com/HalloweenCardEnvelope.html http://www.zodiackiller.com/HalloweenCard.html

http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq61-4.htm http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq61-2.htm http://www.warpaths2peacepipes.com/nati … symbol.htm Remember the "Red Phantom" "Red With Rage" and the "BadLands" South Dakota, Sioux.

A stretch possibly but perhaps worth a mention….. On the halloween card Z places a pumpkin over the midsection of the Skeleton. When removed there was nothing beneath…so why or what was the reason for including it?

Perhaps no more than coincidence, but interesting placement of the pumpkin.

You and others, particularly rand, could be onto something but, unless it had The Z.’s name and thumbprint underneath, I think, with all due respect, the pumpkin pastie, including the ciphers, are nothing but whimsy and busywork to keep investigators preoccupied.

A stretch possibly but perhaps worth a mention….. On the halloween card Z places a pumpkin over the midsection of the Skeleton. When removed there was nothing beneath…so why or what was the reason for including it?

We all know the old verse ( many of which have some history behind them)

Peter, Peter, Pumpkin eater
Had a wife and couldn’t keep her
put her in a pumpkin shell
and there he kept her very well.

The history….he couldn’t keep her…she was unfaithful
Put her in a pumpkin shell…..a chastity belt.

Perhaps no more than coincidence, but interesting placement of the pumpkin.

When I first encountered an image of the pumpkin, it was on Mike Butterfield’s ZKF site and it was actually three images of the card joined together in a sequence, starting with the skeleton with the pumpkin and ending with the skeleton without the pumpkin. In other words, it showed the effect of a disappearing pumpkin. From what I understand, the pumpkin was actually stuck on to the front of the card in such a way that it would, and did, fall off after it was opened. Feel free to correct me on that, if I understood it wrong.

This reminded me of quite a different fairy tale: Cinderella and her pumpkin that "disappeared" at the stroke of 12.

This idea formed a consistent theme with the skeleton with the mask, as C was at a masquerade ball that night. It also suggested a possible significance to the number 12.

The question is what might the 12 signify? Especially given that the number 14 is being more overtly highlighted on the Halloween Card. (Of course, I am referring to the message "4-teen" and the number "14" written on the hand of the skeleton.)

Well, it seems to me to be a back reference of some kind to the Map Code letter of June 26, 1970, which had a 12 at the bottom–the so-called "kill score".

Is it likely this is a back reference? Well it seems very plausible to me, since the pace card contains the number 13, which appears to be a back reference to the Little List card of July 26, 1970. What’s more, the Lake Tahoe card also appears to be out of sequence with the "kill scores", and thus appears (to me) to be a back reference to the Map Code letter.

I would suppose that the enigmatic messages on the Halloween Cards and the Tahoe card somehow must be interpreted in relation to the Map Code letter (and the Pace card must somehow be understood in relation to the Little List letter).

If this "back reference" conjecture is true, then it implies that the "Cinderella" interpretation is correct. And if that is true, we have another case (see some of my recent posts) of the theme of girls-in-transformation.

Regards,

G

Victor wrote:-

You and others, particularly rand, could be onto something but, unless it had The Z.’s name and thumbprint underneath, I think, with all due respect, the pumpkin pastie, including the ciphers, are nothing but whimsy and busywork to keep investigators preoccupied

I actually believe most investigators (thank god) probably agree with you that the Ciphers are nothing but whimsy/B.S and are much more concerned with the Physical evidence. To that end, I’ve never understood the agrument that these ciphers were going to preoccupy those on the front line.

They certainly do keep us amateurs (years later) chasing our tails but I seriously doubt Z forseen or intended that. Personally I think the man was too arrogant not to include something, regardless of how obscure and believe there is merit is analysing how these ciphers are constructed, what they have to say and what symbolism is being evoked.If they contain nothing more than what we see at face value in 408, there is still valuable information to be gleaned, Imho.

GGluckman

It’s the first time I’ve heard that the Pumpkin was designed to fall off when the card was opened. Funny you mention "it showed the effect of the disappearing pumpkin" because I’ve always looked at both skeletons to reflect that, however the second showing the effect of the missing pumpkin. Dunno it looks like the first is happy’free/in control and the second is captured.I don’t know why but I’ve always considered the skeletons as a projection of Z. That’s probably 100% wrong. I wouldn’t or couldn’t knock your idea, that’s where we are with these things. I really believe it is as the saying goes " anything encrypted by man can be decrypted by man". It’s only going to take someone to latch onto Z’s humour/way or thinking to provide a break.

Daniel…..

That’s a good one ….It took me back to the late 50’s. I recall my older brother and cousins reciting a whole bunch of those. I guess every University Math Dept. had their own versions. My brother and cousins were HS age. They seemed to recant these more as like HS Cheers. But I think this may reveal Z’s age group a bit more. I hadn’t really heard those recited since the late 50’s, and those guys were all born in the early to mid 1940’s. Could be Z was younger than some thought, 23-28 maybe.

My take on the pumpkin is since you do not see his face is because he’s facing the skeletons privates symbolizing a sex act. This is why you see his arms and legs twitching and the smile on ITS face is the clincher.

Well, that’s changed my perspective on the card completely, I must say.

Hmmm, maybe you are right about pi:

TREE 4-TEEN

Hmmm, maybe you are right about pi:

TREE 4-TEEN

Great. So now he might be Irish lol.

Hmmm, maybe you are right about pi:

TREE 4-TEEN

Great. So now he might be Irish lol.

That’s it!!!

He’s EYE-RICH!!!

tree-4teen = 3.14 when said in an irish accent. tree = three.