Go on I will bite, please explain the fingerprint issue to me ? I did say the evidence should be taken together, if one pointed to him I could understand the continued fascination.

He wore a Zodiac watch, like thousands of other people. His favourite book was one that was used in high school English literature, tens if not hundreds of thousands would have read this book in school. He was accused by somebody who had a vendetta against him (DC), and let’s be honest he was not the most trustworthy source. His story has changed that much over the years he has lost all credibility. Oh and let’s not forget the later accusation, hmm that was definitely from an upstanding member of the community with nothing to gain wasn’t it.

Granted ALA was not a particularly nice person but was he Zodiac, sorry we will just to agree to disagree on this one.

Some people claim the fingerprints from different crime scenes have been matched to each other. Clearly, if that is indeed true ALA is not Zodiac. Other people claim it’s a fact they have never managed to successfully match different prints they have to each other. So there is some level of doubt If that is the case.

Despite not matching print wise plenty of people in LE still thought ALA was a viable suspect. That strongly suggests there are issues with the prints. As I say as recently as 2018 LE said ALA was still a suspect.

Yes, plenty of people may have read that same story. But I doubt too many of them went around telling friends about desires and fantasies to hunt people rather than game.

Even if we forget what Cheney and Spinelli said. We still have The sister in law and his brother noticing similar spellings and phrases he used in comparison to Zodiac. We still have Tucker and his wife seeing him with Codes/ciphers. That is still more than what many other suspects have.

I don’t seek to persuade you ALA was Zodiac. Rather I just wanted to address the false claim you made about DNA ruling him out. As I said LE literally said a few years ago DNA had not ruled him out and that he was still a suspect. Thanks.

Another thing about the photos. I can’t tell if his white button up shirt has a pocket on each side of the shirt or just the left side, but if the shirt has two pockets, i also think it’s strange that a left handed person would keep their checkbook (or whatever is in his front pocket) in his left pocket. Again, this is a thing a right handed person is more likely to do. Does anyone else see two pockets or just one? I really can’t tell.

According to his friends, family and people who worked with him, he had no preference for either hand and would switch between both hands when he was doing work or a task. He was also able to write with both hands.

I certainly recall him as being ambidextrous. He also seemed to complain when asked to give a writing sample with his right hand, saying it hurt from boxing or something, but he has an excuse for everything. I Still don’t think he’s the killer though.

Another thing about the photos. I can’t tell if his white button up shirt has a pocket on each side of the shirt or just the left side, but if the shirt has two pockets, i also think it’s strange that a left handed person would keep their checkbook (or whatever is in his front pocket) in his left pocket. Again, this is a thing a right handed person is more likely to do. Does anyone else see two pockets or just one? I really can’t tell.

According to his friends, family and people who worked with him, he had no preference for either hand and would switch between both hands when he was doing work or a task. He was also able to write with both hands.

I certainly recall him as being ambidextrous. He also seemed to complain when asked to give a writing sample with his right hand, saying it hurt from boxing or something, but he has an excuse for everything. I Still don’t think he’s the killer though.

Don’t you think it’s odd that he told police he was only able to write with one hand though? When they wanted handwriting samples?

Police learned he had the ability to write with both hands from his family and friends. Yet he always denied he was able to. When they tried to get him to do a handwriting sample with his other hand he complained he wasn’t able to write with that hand and that it hurt. Prettty suspect if you ask me. If he had nothing to hide why lie. And put on a whole act.

I mean imagine if we found some great new suspect and we learned from family and friends this suspect had the ability to write with both hands. But when we tried to get handwriting samples from both hands of that suspect the suspect lied and told us he was only able to write with one hand. That would surely be highly suspect. In a case like this where a handwriting match could result in the case being solved.

Go on I will bite, please explain the fingerprint issue to me ? I did say the evidence should be taken together, if one pointed to him I could understand the continued fascination.

He wore a Zodiac watch, like thousands of other people. His favourite book was one that was used in high school English literature, tens if not hundreds of thousands would have read this book in school. He was accused by somebody who had a vendetta against him (DC), and let’s be honest he was not the most trustworthy source. His story has changed that much over the years he has lost all credibility. Oh and let’s not forget the later accusation, hmm that was definitely from an upstanding member of the community with nothing to gain wasn’t it.

Granted ALA was not a particularly nice person but was he Zodiac, sorry we will just to agree to disagree on this one.

Some people claim the fingerprints from different crime scenes have been matched to each other. Clearly, if that is indeed true ALA is not Zodiac. Other people claim it’s a fact they have never managed to successfully match different prints they have to each other. So there is some level of doubt If that is the case.

Despite not matching print wise plenty of people in LE still thought ALA was a viable suspect. That strongly suggests there are issues with the prints. As I say as recently as 2018 LE said ALA was still a suspect.

Yes, plenty of people may have read that same story. But I doubt too many of them went around telling friends about desires and fantasies to hunt people rather than game.

Even if we forget what Cheney and Spinelli said. We still have The sister in law and his brother noticing similar spellings and phrases he used in comparison to Zodiac. We still have Tucker and his wife seeing him with Codes/ciphers. That is still more than what many other suspects have.

I don’t seek to persuade you ALA was Zodiac. Rather I just wanted to address the false claim you made about DNA ruling him out. As I said LE literally said a few years ago DNA had not ruled him out and that he was still a suspect. Thanks.

Ok fair enough if true that the DNA was taken from the outside of the stamp then I recant that, but let’s assume that they now have DNA as quoted by the same source that you are alluding to. They already have ALA’s DNA profile on record so it would not take this long to compare if he was high up on their suspect list.

Go on I will bite, please explain the fingerprint issue to me ? I did say the evidence should be taken together, if one pointed to him I could understand the continued fascination.

He wore a Zodiac watch, like thousands of other people. His favourite book was one that was used in high school English literature, tens if not hundreds of thousands would have read this book in school. He was accused by somebody who had a vendetta against him (DC), and let’s be honest he was not the most trustworthy source. His story has changed that much over the years he has lost all credibility. Oh and let’s not forget the later accusation, hmm that was definitely from an upstanding member of the community with nothing to gain wasn’t it.

Granted ALA was not a particularly nice person but was he Zodiac, sorry we will just to agree to disagree on this one.

Some people claim the fingerprints from different crime scenes have been matched to each other. Clearly, if that is indeed true ALA is not Zodiac. Other people claim it’s a fact they have never managed to successfully match different prints they have to each other. So there is some level of doubt If that is the case.

Despite not matching print wise plenty of people in LE still thought ALA was a viable suspect. That strongly suggests there are issues with the prints. As I say as recently as 2018 LE said ALA was still a suspect.

Yes, plenty of people may have read that same story. But I doubt too many of them went around telling friends about desires and fantasies to hunt people rather than game.

Even if we forget what Cheney and Spinelli said. We still have The sister in law and his brother noticing similar spellings and phrases he used in comparison to Zodiac. We still have Tucker and his wife seeing him with Codes/ciphers. That is still more than what many other suspects have.

I don’t seek to persuade you ALA was Zodiac. Rather I just wanted to address the false claim you made about DNA ruling him out. As I said LE literally said a few years ago DNA had not ruled him out and that he was still a suspect. Thanks.

Ok fair enough if true that the DNA was taken from the outside of the stamp then I recant that, but let’s assume that they now have DNA as quoted by the same source that you are alluding to. They already have ALA’s DNA profile on record so it would not take this long to compare if he was high up on their suspect list.

Well of course it depends on them having a good enough sample. Which we all of course hope they do.

That investigator said ALA was known to have kids lick stamps for him, and that if they could trace DNA back to one of those kids that’s one way they could link it all back to ALA. That is what that investigator said.

Because people claim to have licked stamps for him, you can’t really rush to rule out ALA. Even if his DNA is a nonmatch. Ultimately if they match it to some other viable suspect clearly ALA can finally be ruled out. And the case can be solved.

If they ever match the fingerprints or DNA to some other suspect. I will happily concede the case is over and done with. Until then though ALA shall linger in this case till the very end.

Ok so if we get DNA and it doesn’t match ALA then that’s because “kids lick stamps for him”, why would somebody do this years before DNA ? Don’t you think it is strange that despite having a full profile of ALA’s fingerprints they were not able to link it to a single Zodiac print ? Ciphers/codes were very prevalent at the time, there were daily puzzle’s in most newspapers, and I don’t think that because he misspelled words make him a good suspect.

Honestly I am not looking for an argument, I find it interesting to hear other people views. A good debate can help a lot especially in a 52 year old case. In the case of ALA it does strike a rather similar cord to another case which is linked to the Zodiac, especially when you consider LE’s reasoning on that case. As a matter of interest what, to you anyway, makes you think that ALA is the top suspect in the case?

It should be so simple for a few basic things to happen now IMO!

An update is badly needed. There is nothing new; beating dead horses and endless speculation has led nowhere.

Who in L. E. is in charge? What agencies are involved NOW? If someone had proof, where should they go to report it? Why can’t L.E. list all the publicly named suspects whom they have cleared? Why can’t whoever is in
charge give a report on DNA testing and results to-date? Fingerprint testing results to-date?

Release all evidence previously not released.

People did not lick stamps and envelopes because they did not like the taste. There were no adhesive stamps back then.

My poi had me lick stamps and envelopes for him as well as address some (as I have posted about). These were after I met him in 1970. I can go through those and point out all that I am pretty sure he asked me to do for him, telling me what to write. I remember altering my normal handwriting a bit as I thought it was so odd for him to be asking, stating his hand hurt and he did not like his penmanship.

So my DNA could be on these (as posted about elsewhere). I have never been contacted by anyone re. this btw! So I really have to wonder after all this time if the supposed testing really ever took place.

I try to be Allen-agnostic these days (he’s low on my list), but from ZODIAC UNMASKED: "The suspect’s right handprinting and his left handprinting were almost identical,” Toschi told me…"

Also, in the same book, Morrill believed Zodiac was right-handed. Allen objected to writing with his left hand. Am I missing something here?

Matching crime scene prints were likely a premature announcement (remember when DNA matched ALA for all of five minutes?). I wouldn’t bet the farm on quotes from old newspapers. I also don’t believe Toschi was so far gone that he would blithely disregard such evidence.

Now, the Exorcist letter palm prints. There are obvious arguments to be made for and against those. The letter doesn’t include proof it was from Z, but it’s withstood numerous examinations (I’ll omit the Keel stuff for now because I’d be here all night, and we don’t have tangible proof of it). Would Zodiac leave his palm prints all over a letter…who knows.

As per the 2002 DNA — again — it was Carroll who wanted to exonerate suspects with it. Maloney would only agree that it wasn’t Allen’s DNA. And there was much skepticism, at the time, but by the late 2000s, things had changed, for some reason. Of course, by that point, it was almost a completely different group of people posting on Zodiac boards.

Ok so if we get DNA and it doesn’t match ALA then that’s because “kids lick stamps for him”, why would somebody do this years before DNA ? Don’t you think it is strange that despite having a full profile of ALA’s fingerprints they were not able to link it to a single Zodiac print ? Ciphers/codes were very prevalent at the time, there were daily puzzle’s in most newspapers, and I don’t think that because he misspelled words make him a good suspect.

Honestly I am not looking for an argument, I find it interesting to hear other people views. A good debate can help a lot especially in a 52 year old case. In the case of ALA it does strike a rather similar cord to another case which is linked to the Zodiac, especially when you consider LE’s reasoning on that case. As a matter of interest what, to you anyway, makes you think that ALA is the top suspect in the case?

Well ALA was always up to no good with kids. So him getting them to lick stamps may have just been the first step he did to try and gain them. Before he got them to do other things.

If the kids licking the stamps for him did happen, I think it was more luck, than anything else. As of course realistically he wouldn’t have known about DNA back then. If Zodiac wore gloves he could have avoided leaving any prints at all. Also lets say he did leave an odd partial print etc. That may not be enough to make a definitive match.

Again I think a lot smarter detectives than myself looked at all the fingerprint evidence in this case and still came the conclusion ALA was a viable suspect. If they had for certain the Zodiac’s prints and ALA did not match I think they would have moved beyond him for certain.

For me top two things which makes me think ALA is Zodiac is the whole lie about being able to write with both hands. Again why lie if you have nothing to hide. And secondly When you consider what Don Cheney said, What Ralph Spinelli Said, What the brother and sister in law said. What Phil Tucker and his wife said, Things all start to add up.

Six people all saying different things which supports the idea he was Zodiac. A lot of people. Far more than what most suspects have. Many times someone is a suspect because one person accused them of being Zodiac.

The shear amount of people saying things which all add up and support the idea of him being Zodiac, I think is very unique in this case. Stands out a lot.

Another thing about the photos. I can’t tell if his white button up shirt has a pocket on each side of the shirt or just the left side, but if the shirt has two pockets, i also think it’s strange that a left handed person would keep their checkbook (or whatever is in his front pocket) in his left pocket. Again, this is a thing a right handed person is more likely to do. Does anyone else see two pockets or just one? I really can’t tell.

Again, such elements just prove nothing, mean nothing. I’m right-handed but I always keep my handkerchief in my left pant pocket, see.

One of the oldest saws in this case is that "Zodiac would have different handwriting styles if he was ambidextrous," but being ambidextrous doesn’t magically gift you with two wildly differing handwriting styles that would evade the scrutiny of qualified document examiners. According to GS, Morrill said so at the time, so the argument isn’t even based on outdated pop psychology or science. I guess "he was ambidextrous" sounds vaguely sinister and exotic.

Again, Morrill believed Zodiac was right-handed. The Exorcist palm prints are believed to be from the right hand. You can argue that Morrill was wrong and that the prints aren’t Zodiac’s, but the ambidextrous angle simply doesn’t explain anything. And Graysmith (unwittingly?) rendered the whole argument moot made by claiming Allen distorted his writing, which doesn’t require two hands.

Allen was probably leery of a frame up, his feelings hurt by gossip and accusations; while Toschi’s vanity was affronted by Allen’s abrasiveness. You know, the first major suspect in this case (Grant) essentially happened because somebody was rude to a cop. Allen had a belligerent personality and Toschi was certainly vain. Also, Allen wrote a nice letter to the police and offered help, which is also said to make him look guilty. Didn’t Ricky Burton say something similar? I’m guessing it’s not that uncommon. Same for "Zodiac watch" and "outdoorsy guys like to hunt and go to the beach."

Another thing about the photos. I can’t tell if his white button up shirt has a pocket on each side of the shirt or just the left side, but if the shirt has two pockets, i also think it’s strange that a left handed person would keep their checkbook (or whatever is in his front pocket) in his left pocket. Again, this is a thing a right handed person is more likely to do. Does anyone else see two pockets or just one? I really can’t tell.

Again, such elements just prove nothing, mean nothing. I’m right-handed but I always keep my handkerchief in my left pant pocket, see.

Absolutely, it means nothing, unless there is behavior to compare it to. I’m right handed and also keep my bandana in my back left pocket. That detail alone means nothing. But the people who work and live around me know it. I’ve now created a baseline behavior. If I deviate from it, it has the potential to be suspicious. It could also very well mean absolutely nothing. It depends on the context. I definitely don’t think ALA is a good suspect, but he has "tells" like anyone else when it come to them being candid or not. Is there enough documented baseline behavior from ALA to analyze his deviations from that "normal" behavior to call him a liar? I don’t think their is, at least not when it comes to his handwriting. But I do believe he was being dishonest about something, not sure what, when it come to his handwriting. It’s very subjective to interpret this many years later with the little information that is available. You never know what little, seemingly insignificant details, might turn into damning evidence later on. Your right, these are useless details, but only at the moment, they may or may not become important later on down the road.

Don’t you think it’s odd that he told police he was only able to write with one hand though? When they wanted handwriting samples?

Police learned he had the ability to write with both hands from his family and friends. Yet he always denied he was able to. When they tried to get him to do a handwriting sample with his other hand he complained he wasn’t able to write with that hand and that it hurt. Prettty suspect if you ask me. If he had nothing to hide why lie. And put on a whole act.

I mean imagine if we found some great new suspect and we learned from family and friends this suspect had the ability to write with both hands. But when we tried to get handwriting samples from both hands of that suspect the suspect lied and told us he was only able to write with one hand. That would surely be highly suspect. In a case like this where a handwriting match could result in the case being solved.

I do think it’s highly suspicious. I would have loved to have seen the writing in the little grey box that the Tuckers spoke of. Mrs Tucker got a really good look at it and said some of the symbols were the same as the Zodiacs.

It’s suspicious. It’s not as incriminating as fingerprints not matching, DNA not matching, etc. is exonerating.