But as far as Cheney’s story, one thing that makes it immediately suspect is (correct me if I’m wrong) he actually said ALA asked him to lick some stamps for him, and he complied. Is this normal behavior?

Yes it is. I myself have licked stamps and envelopes when asked to do so by my boyfriend and thought nothing of it at the time. He said he didn’t like the taste of glue. He also asked to borrow stamps occasionally and I thought nothing at all of giving him some of mine if I had any. I imagine this happened millions of times among close friends and families.

Then I remember when the post office began issuing self-adhesive stamps and talking about that with my boyfriend and telling him I thought that was great as he could now apply his own stamps and I didn’t care for the glue myself.

The envelopes today seem to be much better and the glue isn’t nearly as strong as what I remember from years ago.

I’m not a troll. What is the definition of a troll. Someone who comes on a forum and disagrees with the party line. I didn’t sign on here to argue either, but I must say people like duckingg2001 or whatever he goes by are the real trolls. Why? Duckking you said I’m the only one saying that Cheney was paid off. Wrong duckkkkkking. I was responding to something said by the poster EndOfTheWorld in a reply to my post "New and can’t shake ALA" in the main "Introduce yourself" thread. Go read it duckkkkkkkking.

To everyone else here, I signed up here to join in the fun. Am I not supposed to post my own theories or respond to others who make up things? As I stated in my introduction post there seems to sometimes be a backlash against newbies. I understand this and have been guilty of it myself on other forums. I really don’t mean to rub anyone the wrong way.

Ok. The SF Chronicle story is from 2002. Weren’t there a number of developments after 02. The headline says "seems". I will go back and read it again. Did it say that they re-tested the old and newly discovered letters and the DNA uniformly matched in two or more of those stamps/letters? Don’t think it did. If not, aren’t we back at square one. Reading it again it says that they have proven that Allen was not the one who "licked" the tested stamps/envelopes. I would agree with that. I will address this below. It also mentions a "partial" DNA match/profile. What does partial mean? The story mentioned tests to be done in the future. Was there a follow-up story? It’s a matter of public record that Allen’s finger and palm prints didn’t match the letters either. I address this below as well.

I’ll give you this, I asked you for an article and you provided one…but…Bawart was still contending in 2007 that Allen was good for the murders and he was the investigator on the case. Here are a few lines from a Chicago Tribune story from 2007 written as an advance to Fincher’s movie:

Retired detective George Bawart continues to track leads on the Zodiac Killer for the Vallejo Police Department. Bawart, now 67, was successful at reactivating the investigation, interviewing Mageau, who identified Allen through a photo lineup. Bawart requested the search warrant for Allen’s trailer in 1991.

"The only reason I look in that direction — and I am 95 percent sure it was him — is because so many coincidences point in his direction," Bawart said. "What really bothers me about this case is that we were ready to charge Arthur Leigh Allen, with the idea in mind that it would be taken to trial so that 12 jurors could make that determination. But he died before we could do that."

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2007 … id-fincher

95% sure…again…95% sure. I ask again…like some contend about Cheney…was Bawart, who comes off as totally credible to me, paid off to say that? Come on! I mentioned in a previous post that just because Allen was a deplorable child molester does not automatically mean he was a murderer. However, someone who admits using the taped screams of children to get off is in a very dark place and possibly capable of anything. Frankly, we all have our thing that we get off to, but that is in totally different universe than wanting to be in a hot tub with a couple of centerfolds. To be fair, I’m sure some of the other suspects were freaks as well. RS a prime example. I’ve read all the POI threads here and on other sites and found that many of those suspects seemed, from what’s been written anyway, to definitely be in the lunatic fringe. But the screams of children???????? Holy hell!!!!!! Bawart mentioned the string of "coincidences". Give me another suspect with anywhere near the number of "coincidences" connecting them with the case.

I need to mention one thing that, if 100% true, is baffling. The classified ad after the Manelli car accident. The reason I say "if true" is this. I’ve seen the ad cut out of the paper, but is there any way to verify the date it was placed. One would almost have to have the entire page with the top of the page intact showing that A. It was indeed in the Chronicle and B. verifying that the published date closely coincided with the Manelli accident. It’s not enough to accept a date hand written on the clip or have the clip with the masthead date cut out beside it. I’ve read where some have called th SF Chronicle about the classified ad and were told that they didn’t keep records back that far anymore. Typical.

Someone could have forged or placed it in the Chronicle or any paper for that matter, much later for whatever rekason. I guess it could be completely fraudulent and made it to the Internet to become one of those fact myths. If it is/was indeed part of an official Police Zodiac file and could be verified as such it would deserve even more scrutiny than it’s gotten to date…and it’s gotten a hell of a lot. To cover myself I just went to Google images, searched using different terms and found a clip with a hand written date across it, but little else. In saying all this I am certain someone will post something in reply that clarifies this. Admittedly, I’ve not looked into this quite enough and the Z experts here know this case in minute detail. Maybe what I mention exists and I just haven’t seen it. It probably does.

Back to Allen. Here is the thing about DNA, which admittedly, I know very little about. Where were we in the DNA lexicon in say 1993 to about 2002 as opposed to say…now? The 02 SF article mention powerful new DNA technology. There is absolutely no argument that in 69/70 no one could have predicted the future. It would be unrealistic to think someone would have been clever enough to anticipate DNA and attempted to conceal anything. They would have to have been clairvoyant.

But here is my usual question about this. Can anyone tell me specifically about the envelopes/letters and DNA degradation/contamination? Knowing the era and that so much time has since past I can almost guarantee print contamination. We may have had powerful new technology in 02, but does that that mean the new technology had improved to the point to overcome a contaminated sample. What was considered a successful test back then. Exactly the same as today? Again, I don’t know. Could the detectives quoted in the 02 piece have been exaggerating what they had to flush out an accomplice? Then again, it could have been 100% true. The possibilities are endless.

When were the stamps (a number of dates involved here) pulled off the letters for any reason? The first letters and maybe others were touched by the postal service (outside of envelopes) and the newspaper staffs had hands all over them at first. One would hope that later all suspicious mail correspondence that hit the papers would be immediately isolated…but somehow I doubt it.

After the stamps/letters were dusted for prints how many police staff members hands were on them through the decades? I can’t answer these questions. Is there anyone left who can? How many different officers and lab/evidence techs have come and gone over the years. To repeat, my grandmother would never lick stamps/envelopes. She used a wet rag to wet the glue. Hated the taste of glue, but that’s not what I think occurred here. The claim has always been they did indeed find human DNA.

Take Allen’s brain fluid for instance. Bawart said he had it saved because he thought DNA would be a factor in the future. Since DNA was in it’s infancy at the time, is anyone willing to guarantee that the specimen was saved properly? Contamination is unlikely, but it’s worthy of a mention. Maybe someone here can tell me if a valid DNA marker can be taken and certified as a good sample if there is a DNA mix? I presume DNA that has been cross pollinated with one or many other’s DNA would still be successfully testable…right? I don’t know. Some facets of DNA testing had been used before this, but I think the FBI starting using it officially in 1998. I want to add this. I was just watching a Dateline episode regarding a 2007 murder and the lawyer who was being interviewed said of her clients case… in 2015 we’ve come a long in DNA testing since 2007… which means like any scientific investigation technique it gets better every day. I don’t have enough knowledge to chronicle the progression of DNA profiling accuracy through the years. Too many questions like this exist in my mind. If these crimes occurred in the modern era a number of these issues would be moot.

Excuse me for skipping around here. In regard to Cheney, I can’t imagine anyone not being suspicious of Cheney especially with his migrating story. Graysmith’s account was Cheney passed a polygraph. Bawart said he had to take one twice and it’s result was inconclusive. I believe Bawart. I agree that if Allen molested or attempted to molest his daughter there is Cheney’s motive to lie. Is that contained in an official report somewhere or is it speculation?

I have my own theory about Cheney. I think, to an extent, he is/was complicit. To what extent is debatable.The valid question has always been why did he wait to report his suspicions to police. My theory is that he had involvement in the case by helping Allen in various ways. Maybe he didn’t participate in the actual murders, but helped in other ways or in fact knew Allen was killing people. When DNA became a reality he, all of a sudden, remembered licking stamps and putting his print in paraffin. Of everything he said that paraffin story seemed most revealing. Can’t say exactly why…or maybe I can.

Cheney went to great lengths to paint Allen as someone who would scheme to, as Panzarella put it, rat-phuck (sic) people. Cheney said Allen was one to get even and a number of other bad things about him. Licking stamps is dodgy enough. But now let’s say you were over at this "friends" house and you rolled paraffin into a little smooth ball removing your prints from it and this "friend" who constantly talked about criminal acts including murder asks you to leave him a print and you do it???????????????????????? No more needs to be said about the pure B.S. of that claim. It’s totally out of the stratosphere of belief.

I think he went along with some of Allen’s misdeeds until the…pick off the little kiddies as they come bouncing off the bus…letter. Think about it. As sad as this statement is…a lot of people might go along or at least know about a plan like this until killing little kids is at issue. That could be the breaking point. Sure Zodiac killed teenagers, but little kids, one could argue, would take it to a totally different plateau. Didn’t he say that after the "kiddies" letter is when he decided to go to the police? Panzarella backed him up on this. Cheney said he went to one agency and Panzarella then contacted another which finally resulted in Cheney being interviewed but "nothing came of it".

Some here may have uncovered evidence of one of these reports, but maybe not. It sure would help to verify these stories through the dates on the reports seeing how much time did indeed pass from Cheney’s claimed suspicions to the actual report date. I think time frame is key for my theory to hold up. I could go on listing Cheney concerns here, but will end by saying I do not believe he spun "all" of this up out of whole cloth. Some were B.S. cover stories…some were not. I’m going to throw this out here and might get blasted for it. What if Cheney was bi-sexual and had more than a casual friendship with Allen?

Some of you may indict me for that statement. Not so fast. For all you know I might be bi-sexual. I’m not , but I don’t suggest this as a smear. I will assure you I am the most liberal person in my area and don’t give a damn or judge people on sexual orientation. I have many bi and gay friends who stay at my home often. Many, if not most, are of much stronger character and integrity than I can ever hope to have. I bring this up for a reason. Just because Cheney was married and had kids meant nothing in that era. Because of bigoted social pressure one just didn’t openly admit that sort of thing. Some married and had kids as the result of that mind-set. Some did and went about life very contented. And if someone is bi-sexual there is really not a need to qualify my speculation any further. I bring this up to illustrate a possible additional layer of texture to that relationship. Wild speculation…guilty. Much of the information offered on these type forums is wild, sometimes crass, speculation. Hell, many have speculated that Cheney, himself, was the Zodiac. Is it acceptable to speculate someone might be a serial killer, but off limits to speculate as to ones sexual orientation??????? The only proviso here is if Cheney is still alive. If that’s the case maybe the mods should put a "Cheney" text character lock-out on the name so when typed comes up ****** like profanity usage. If I offended anyone forgive me. If you hate someone without knowing them it can be a mistake.

Bawart said of Cheney that he "mostly" believed him, but something to the effect of…something always made him uneasy about Cheney story. I trust a seasoned investigators gut instinct. That’s my theory until someone can post something that can knock it down. Didn’t Bawart say in the 2007 doc that as far as he knew Cheney’s DNA was never tested? If true…big mistake.

I repeat, I am not 100% comfortable with Allen, but my comfort level with him still exceeds that of any other suspect…by orders of magnitude…but he may not have acted as a total lone wolf.

If Endoftheworld was the one who said that, I apologize. I did not see that. You could have stated that when I politely asked about it, after I answered all of your questions.

A troll is someone who makes multiple threads about the same subject and doesn’t listen to what other people have to say. You seem to be confusing "disagrees with you" with "supports the Party line".

I have no idea why you childishly started mocking my name as if you had a stroke. Are you OK?

Sorry to act like a jerk. But it seemed to me like this thread was you saying that we are all idiots for not accepting what might be obvious to you, people who have spent years and years researching this case, because it would "spoil the fun". Like it’s some game and not a matter of people’s lives lost. I took that as insulting.

As for Cheney’s stamp comment….he said the last time he saw Allen was in Dec. of ’68. If he was licking his stamps for him after that, it would be after ’71 when he told police he thought Allen was the Zodiac. Or did Allen just save all these licked stamps to mail out over the years?

In regards to Cheney….this might be of interest:

http://zodiackiller.com/Cheney.html

In regards to Cheney….this might be of interest:

http://zodiackiller.com/Cheney.html

That makes it sound like Darlene worked at the IHOP down the street from Allen’s parent’s house "where he lived in the ’60s", as if those things happened at the same time. But on Tom’s ALA timeline, you can see that he did not live there at the same time that Darlene worked there.

Oh…my new good friend duckking2001. You need to go back and read the thread. I never wrote or contended that I thought Bawart was paid off. In fact, as you will read…wait a minute…let me go retrieve it and cut and paste it here…see below:

I said…"Sorry for my ignorance of this, but who would have paid off Cheney and why? I know the answer probably would be the real Zodiac?"

mexiatexas wrote:
Sorry for my ignorance of this, but who would have paid off Cheney and why? I know the answer probably would be the real Zodiac?

And you wrote…"This is ridiculous. Is this even serious? What makes you think that he was paid off? I’m sure that he believed everything he said, it’s just that he probably exaggerated his recollections. Even if it’s not true, once people become convinced of something they have a tendency to look back on events and remember them in a way that reinforces that idea. Especially if they are hazy and can’t remember the exact details".

Yep…Mr. Polite alright…

I didn’t say Bawart was paid off…just the opposite. As you can plainly see…I ask…" Who would have paid off Bawart and why"… in response to EndOfTheWorld saying he was. I didn’t buy it and never will. I think Bawart comes off as credible.

Can you with a straight face maintain, as you put it, you were "polite".

Another thing, when did I make multiple posts pounding on the same exact lone topic? Yes, I made posts where I repeated a question or maybe two in the course of a lot of other dialogue. You give the impression that I keep posting the same lone topic over and over. And just because you give an opinion on something that I don’t agree with should that be the end of story? Where is that in the forum rules?

You also posted this:
"Sorry to act like a jerk. But it seemed to me like this thread was you saying that we are all idiots for not accepting what might be obvious to you, people who have spent years and years researching this case, because it would "spoil the fun". Like it’s some game and not a matter of people’s lives lost. I took that as insulting."

Nice try. So the only reason you are on this forum is to attempt to solve this for the remaining family members? Really? If that’s the case I commend you, but my intuition tells me there a number of good people on here collectively saying…..rrriiiggghhhttt…You’ve given me an idea. know what I’m going to do. I’m going to search all duckking2001 posts and gauge your "family" commitment for myself. I will then come back and cut and paste all of your greatest hits. Ready for that?

So you are saying no one on the board considers sleuthing fun and if they do they’re, in essence, desecrating the graves of the Zodiac’s victims? If that’s the charge it’s so transparent it reeks.

No…here is the way this works for many if not most. It’s entertaining discussing "sleuthing" this and other crimes, but in no way does that mean I or anyone else that exists here doesn’t have the utmost sympathy for the victims and their families.

Your disingenuous and pious plea ending with you being "insulted" rings hollow. Attempting to bury me along with the Zodiac victims was extremely weak.

First let me say I am a father. There is no way I would diminish the pain these cold blooded murders caused the families. Again, go re-read my previous posts. I am new to this forum, but not new to Zodiac. I’ve mentioned more than once that many here are to be commended for their years of deep research. Do you read anything before you post? Holy mackerel~~~~~~~~~~~~~~!

Sorry to leave you in the dust…my question now is…Are you ok?

I’m not going to get in a flame war with you and get kicked off the forum. I just got here. In reply to your stamp licking dates and questions my reply is…I don’t know. If you will re-read my post I said that time frame is critical for my theory to hold up. The stamp licking is #2 on my list as compared to the paraffin.

Are you 100% sure of those dates or is that speculation. I know that is what Cheney has said. I’m not asking in sarcasm here I really want your answer. There is no doubt perplexing statements, facts, fiction remain and always will in this case. At what point in time do you believe and or not believe Cheney. No Allen didn’t save stamps/letters. Saliva dries in a few seconds. What makes you buy Cheneys story that 68 was the last time he saw Allen? I contend that’s a lie.

Cheney was either telling the truth or he was lying. I don’t buy this stuff that his mind was playing tricks on him. If he was lying, what motivated him to lie? I just threw out the idea of money from somebody, maybe Ralph Spinelli to go along with his story to get out of jail, or maybe Cheney was paid for his film appearances and magazine interviews. If not money, what other possible motivation would he have to make up a lot of malarkey?

I have not ruled out ala no matter who says what..ala was pushed as z for considerable time…now let me say i am not a big ala fanboi but until z is found and proven beyond a doubt he still deserves his place on the poi list….there is still a following trying to tie a suspect to the ferrin painting party..the latest of course is gaik…again not knocking gaik and yea it would be great to learn who truly was at that painting party..some days i think ferrin may be key to z and other days its bates…truth is probably none of the victims had any association with z…your post is relevant

On paper, ALA is the best suspect there is. I don’t think DNA should have ruled him out because nobody knows if the DNA being compared was even that of Zodiac. I really do wish that someone could prove that ALA and Manalli were friends, or knew each other. That, to me, would be huge.

I was never a fan on paper either. I just don’t see it. I don’t deny Bawart was an honest, good cop, but there are/were other cops that had/have the guy they think did it. They are a lot like us in that we like who we like.

Are you 100% sure of those dates or is that speculation. I know that is what Cheney has said. I’m not asking in sarcasm here I really want your answer. There is no doubt perplexing statements, facts, fiction remain and always will in this case. At what point in time do you believe and or not believe Cheney. No Allen didn’t save stamps/letters. Saliva dries in a few seconds. What makes you buy Cheneys story that 68 was the last time he saw Allen? I contend that’s a lie.

First of all, why would you not buy that I felt insulted? If I wasn’t perceiving an insult, why would I be so rude to you? It was just a misunderstanding because I got the wrong qoute and mistook your intentions based on it. Yeah, that’s on me for looking like an ass for making such assumptions. You insulted me too and that made me look back and read into it what wasn’t there.

You said that you were going to go through all my posts and repaste everything that I have said. Is that a joke? People have actually done that before, that’s how deranged some people are about this case, so that is why I have my guard up about people that I don’t know anything about.

I’m sorry if you take me for being impolite, and I really did mean my apology before. If you don’t accept that and want to hold it personally against me, that is up to you.

Now, for your question: That’s what Cheney said. I really have no idea what happened in reality. How would I be able to tell that? My feeling is that he probably did not have contact with Allen after he said he did, or at least not in any way that would constitute Allen giving him any personal information. He might have told Allen to stick it where the sun don’t shine. The guy was a pedo and, Cheney thought, a murderer. I don’t find it hard to believe at all that he wouldn’t want to talk to him again. Why do you think he wasn’t being truthful there?

Endoftheworld: Why would Cheney lie about Allen? People lie for all sorts of reasons. There are plenty of people on here who think that Allen could be the killer. Like I said, I’m sure Cheney did too. So he wanted to see him fry. Simple as that. This kind of annoying foot in mouth that I just did shows how easy it is for people to get things twisted up. Is that really so hard to believe that he could have made a bigger deal out of something than it was and convinced himself it was true, with no other motive than that?

dukking, yeah it’s hard to believe unless he was screwed up mentally in some way.

Ok duckking. You seem like a stand up guy. I’m sorry for the misunderstanding. Let’s move on.
I still feel Cheney was complicit. Dates, times and locations will continue to be problematic for us. Without any sort of documentation speculation is all we have. Didn’t Cheney say he moved away to another part of California just before the first or second Z murder? I’ve been thinking about all the material here and went to the POI thread and re-read everything on everyone on all the possibles. Maybe I’m blind, but nothing knocked me off Allen.

One thing I keep seeing people post is that ALA was cleared. But many of the names who worked the case think/thought he was the Zodiac. Does’t matter that DNA (still have a lot of questions those DNA samples) indicated that ALA did not lick the stamps. Ok…but that doesn’t bother me a bit. Should anyone use that to say that it totally eliminates Alllen?’ Holy crap. I still haven’t seen anything from police that concretely said "Allen totally cleared". That 2002 SF chronicle wrote " Allen didn’t lick stamps" which they say "seems" to clear Allen.

I ask this again…has Cheney’s DNA ever been tested.

WOW…did not know that. When and where was it tested?

Ok….saw this http://www.zodiackiller.com/Cheney.html

Still looking for more. Will post back.