Just to clarify: The above only pertains to what Cheney told LE back in the 70s. What he told interviewers years later I can’t characterize as anything but highly questionable. The link above is telling. And that isn’t the worst example. Some of the things he allegedly told Voigt privately were very outlandish.

Not an uncommon phenomenon. It starts with NN as a Z suspect – and ends with NN in drag giving Adam the apple after having constructed a time machine.

But I do have a problem with a few of the prevailing party lines in Z forums which are 1-Graysmith is a scummy huckster and every word out of his mouth is a lie and b) that anyone who thought or thinks ALA was a good suspect is a silly twit. Not gonna fall in with groupthink on this one.

I didn’t say that every word Graysmith said was a lie. YOU said that he didn’t lie, and I showed that he did.

Some of your latest posts are baffling. What exactly is the "Z forum party line" that people are pushing so hard on you here? I don’t see anyone even so much as telling you that ALA was a bad suspect, just debating Cheney’s mindset and correcting some logical fallacies. Where have people been insulting you personally because you think ALA is a good suspect? All I see is you saying that other people have crappy suspects, which isn’t very open minded if we are supposed to afford you the same courtesy, no?

Actually, you sound like another poster who would make multiple replies to the same post and argue about ALA on other forums. Is that you?

PS. Where did you see that police report about Cheney telling Pomona PD about Allen? I seem to have misplaced my copy of the Manhattan Beach report and I don’t remember what if it said anything about that and I don’t recall it being mentioned in the Vallejo files.

I’m not 100% sure but I believe the detail about contacting Pomona PD (who never got back to him – or something along those lines) didn’t surface until much later, i.e. decades after his interviews with MBPD and subsequently SFPD. It’s certainly not mentioned in the letter from Charles Crumly (Manhattan Beach PD) to "Inspector Doschi" – and said letter is otherwise very detailed.

It was Armstrong who interviewed Cheney, I believe. Is there a report of this interview floating around? I don’t think I’ve seen one and I suspect it may belong to that part of the Z material which SFPD have never released.

The letter to "Doschi" can be found at Tom Voigt’s site:

http://www.zodiackiller.com/AllenInformants1.html

Oh, I think Cheney was perfectly capable of BSing. This is a fine example.

http://www.zodiackiller.com/Cheney2.html

If only someone had asked him about JFK!

This is from 2007. As I said in my post, I think its important to go on the initial interview. As apparently the point must be underlined, I think Cheney got into a thing where he wanted to say the "right" thing, to "please" TV. The same psychology is behind false confessions, false memories, etc.

MM:

Some further points (in no particular order) to consider here:

* Toschi, to the best of my recollection, ended up concluding that Allen looked great, but that "it just wasn’t there" (or words to that effect). So, I don’t think he ended up endorsing Allen as a suspect even though he certainly did so at one point.

* Certain facts regarding the evidence gathered at Allen’s properties are in question as far as I know: The typewriter being one of them. I can’t find the link now (and I don’t say this is gospel, so feel free to correct me), but I do believe it has been demonstrated that Allen’s typewriter was not what Graysmith claimed it was. Similarly, the infamous wing walkers: No wing walkers were found. This is another myth stemming from a simple mistake. The wing walkers were on a list of items LE were searching for – they were NOT on any list of items they actually found. Several reputable Z researchers have stated so, to the best of my knowledge, one of them being Mike Rodelli (who interviewed a LE representative originally assigned to the case and got this info directly from him).

* From where I’m sitting Cheney’s story remains problematic. And I maintain that if there had been zero problems with it, LE would have treated it differently back then. You can’t go to trial on hearsay, certainly not. But LE, Mulanax specifically, seems to have had doubts about this story from the very beginning. The extent to which Cheney and Allen had, let’s say fallen out with each other, is not crystal clear. Mulanax seemed to think Cheney had an axe to grind – and he had no reason whatsoever to be anything but sympathetic to Cheney (and his story) as such. I personally think LE would have pushed on much harder back in 1971 if they had found Cheney’s account truly compelling, but that’s just my opinion.

* There’s no connection between Zodiac and pipe bombs. One may ask what the hell Allen was doing with the latter (he claimed they belonged to someone else) but then again one may ask how likely it is that Z would have kept bombs of any kind around the house, knowing very well the cops were on his trail.

EDIT The pipe bombs weren’t found until the 1991 search of Allen’s place. So, the cops weren’t exactly hot on Z’s trail, I suppose. But this illustrates the point even better: Z issued a bomb threat of sorts in 1970. Allen was caught with pipe bombs (a completely different kind of device to the one Z threatened to use) more than twenty years later. It’s…well, not really compelling, is it? It shows that Allen was a shady character – but that had been well established a long time before this find was made.

* Lastly, as I’ve said before I agree 100% that Allen is a stronger suspect than many of the others who have been "flavor of the month" type "suspects" over the years. There is no doubt about that. But it doesn’t mean all that much. Some of the "suspects" made popular by their accusers are just plain ridiculous – and none of them are excellent, all things said and done. Allen, in that sense, is just the best of a pretty bad bunch – that’s what he was back then, and that’s what he still is. As for LE’s views on Allen as a suspect, they clearly regarded him as viable. But they too suffered from a lack of great alternatives. And Allen at least partly led them on, making it impossible for them to completely let him go. The latter is part and parcel of the Allen phenomenon – his undeniable fondness for playing games.

ADDED POINTS RE: CHENEY’S STORY:

It’s not necessarily a case of Cheney feeding outright lies to the authorities. Allen may very well have done all of the following in some form or other:

* Told Cheney that he might start killing people.

* Referenced “The Most Dangerous Game” (a very popular and well known story at the time, by no means something which would tie anyone conspicuously to Z).

* Made some sort of threatening remarks regarding school children after he got fired.

All of this he could have done prior to the Z case becoming big news.

Then we have certain facts:

* The Zodiac watch.

* Allen’s various weapons and his propensity for leaving them in his car.

* The fact that he was a generally shady and creepy character.

And all of this BEFORE Allen was brought in for questioning, linking him directly to the Z case – which was then about to become front page news. AFTER this point Allen could have (and did) play up the Z angle shamelessly to mess with and/or frighten people who knew him.

It’s more than possible that Cheney simply became convinced that Allen was Z – and that he consciously or subconsciously embellished his story when he talked to LE. The core of it was perfectly true – Allen was suspicious as hell, owned a Zodiac watch and talked about killing people – but the details were embellishments.

Honestly I think this is the most likely scenario, actually. I am reminded of Keith Richards here. Bear with me.

Back in the seventies Keith was fond of talking about the writing of "Satisfaction" as being relatively quick, not a big deal, a riff, and within a few hours he had the basic track. Then it evolved into "I woke up in the middle of the night and wrote it" and now he is saying "I woke up and there was a tape there and I don’t remember writing it". What I think happened is the normal progression the human memory makes. It plays tricks. Its not so much that we set out to deceive, its just that the mind tends toward patterns, and falls into a pattern, and we embellish that pattern. I don’t know why our brains do this, but they certainly do, over and over and over again. And that is what I think happened with Cheney. First thought, best thought- and again, why I think Cheney’s INITIAL interviews are the only thing worth bothering with. I think maybe he likes the celebrity a tiny bit too.

But I do have a problem with a few of the prevailing party lines in Z forums which are 1-Graysmith is a scummy huckster and every word out of his mouth is a lie and b) that anyone who thought or thinks ALA was a good suspect is a silly twit. Not gonna fall in with groupthink on this one.

I didn’t say that every word Graysmith said was a lie. YOU said that he didn’t lie, and I showed that he did.

Some of your latest posts are baffling. What exactly is the "Z forum party line" that people are pushing so hard on you here? I don’t see anyone even so much as telling you that ALA was a bad suspect, just debating Cheney’s mindset and correcting some logical fallacies. Where have people been insulting you personally because you think ALA is a good suspect? All I see is you saying that other people have crappy suspects, which isn’t very open minded if we are supposed to afford you the same courtesy, no?

Actually, you sound like another poster who would make multiple replies to the same post and argue about ALA on other forums. Is that you?

PS. Where did you see that police report about Cheney telling Pomona PD about Allen? I seem to have misplaced my copy of the Manhattan Beach report and I don’t remember what if it said anything about that and I don’t recall it being mentioned in the Vallejo files.

Nope, this is the only forum I am on. I have been a lurker for a long time and I am really shocked at how sometimes others are smacked down on other forums. I am not saying that has happened to me at all, but there does seem to be a "party line" at times, a prevailing attitude would be more clear phrasing. I don’t plan on joining any other forums. I chose this one because it seems small, civil, and simple. All good qualities.
I am a person who likes a good debate and felt it was important to make my own feelings clear. I am very stubborn and have to make up my own mind very thoroughly. I have not made up my mind about a damn thing involving this case, but I don’t like sweeping judgements of anyone. I don’t think I called you out specifically. I think we can all agree that certain forums have been quite brutal.

Saying Graysmith is lying is a very serious charge and it means that he knows that he is being purposefully deceitful for some ulterior motive. Maybe we differ in our meanings of the word "lying". To me, an oversite, an exaggeration, etc is not a lie. A lie is when you KNOW you are wrong, but do it anyway, for your own gain. I don’t think that GS did this for gain. But yeah, as I have said in my other posts, there are many things that infuriate me about GS but that isn’t one of em.

Frankly having written my last few posts the first two days of not smoking I realize my tone was a bit snippety. Now that I am 9 days in I have dropped my weapons so to speak. Not that the heart of what I have said changed. But nicotine is a hell of a drug. But, I was more responding to the tone of the initial poster, who pompously proclaimed it was stupid that ALA was ever a suspect, which I felt insulted alot of people who worked really hard on this case. And if it weren’t for the DNA, probably all of us would still be hardliner ALA’ers. (Which, I am not, BTW).

I am relying on Sandy Panzarella’s and Don Cheney’s own words re. Pomona. I am not sure if a report even exists from Pomona as they did not take him seriously. Correct me if am wrong. And since we have been discussing the obvious flaws in Cheney’s later story, I feel alot more confident believing Sandy Panzarella. And he does corroborate Cheney’s Pomona visit. If ANYONE has that report I would love to see it.

Cheney told someone from ZKF that Allen had been hired to kill Darlene by Darlene’s ex — that goes a little beyond muddled memories in my book. Once you establish that a witness is a serial liar, then his testimony is pretty much useless in a "real world" context.

I’ve heard that one of Graysmith’s sources deliberately fed him misinfo, but that doesn’t adequately cover the sheer breadth of untruths in his books — all of which, coincidentally, happen to make Allen sound like a juicier suspect than he really was. His version of Hartnell’s encounter with Allen was a complete bastardization of what actually happened, yet he STILL tells that stupid story. People have tried to engage him on this subject and he simply isn’t interested in admitting that he was wrong about anything.

Let’s not forget about Spinelli who, at the end of 1990, also pointed the finger at Allen.

Would he have known by the book Zodiac that "Starr" was Allen? A Vallejo local probably would have, but if not, that tells me Allen enjoyed playing everyone. Unless Spinelli too was totally full of it–which would certainly makes sense since he was facing prison time. I mean, Zodiac threatened children and Spinelli never came forward until he faced incarceration? Swell. It also doesn’t seem to me like Allen would have gone to Spinelli seeking "employment" after their altercation in the late 50’s. –Remember me? I kicked your ass now I would like to work for you. I am a serial killer.

So either Allen liked to fool people or he was others patsy, imo.

–On a side note, Allen was in the police report and that it what got him noticed as a suspect by Graysmith. His first book I thought was darn good considering he was a political cartoonist doing the best he could trying to gather all the possible information he could. "Z2"….ick. If I read "limp", "gimp" or "gait" one more time…

My guess would be that Spinelli had indeed read Graysmith. People who knew Allen also knew who "Starr" was – and I’m sure word got around beyond Allen’s immediate circle too. Graysmith himself would have told plenty of people. That said, Allen undoubtedly told plenty of people too. He began playing up the Z angle as early as ’69, practically bragging about his interview with Lynch.

I’ve been thinking about WHY he was brought in for questioning and I think a significant part of it may have been his pedophilia. The consensus back then seems to have been that Z was a sexual deviant. Anyone who fit that profile and who lived so close to the first two crime scenes would have been interesting to LE. Add to this that Allen was an oddball, liked to keep guns in his car, was a regular visitor to LB – and there it is.

Yes…I would imagine it was a little bit of both. No doubt Spinelli had read Zodiac and more than likely knew Allen was involved–maybe even before the book was ever written. Small town, high school friends, lots of family.

The perfect opportunity to lay Allen out there when he needed him most, and it would seem law enforcement didn’t mind going along with a criminal…which is apparently what gave them the nudge to get a search warrant to investigate Allen’s residence.

Yes…it does seem that way. And one might say that’s a bit…well. If I had been in charge of the case I don’t think I would have bothered to have a warrant issued based on Spinelli’s statement. But VPD had a thing for Allen, that seems clear. They wanted to be 100% certain he wasn’t the guy. They even had yet another warrant issued after Allen’s death. I don’t know – maybe it was that someone (Bawart?) had convinced himself Allen had to be involved somehow, maybe it was an idea about public relations/pressure (they wanted to leave no stone unturned, so to speak), maybe a combination of factors.

Allen was, after all, the only "proper" suspect the case ever saw. I guess VPD may have thought that it was Allen or bust after so many years. Not a pleasant thought – but I think they MAY have been thinking that.

Cheney told someone from ZKF that Allen had been hired to kill Darlene by Darlene’s ex — that goes a little beyond muddled memories in my book. Once you establish that a witness is a serial liar, then his testimony is pretty much useless in a "real world" context.

I’ve heard that one of Graysmith’s sources deliberately fed him misinfo, but that doesn’t adequately cover the sheer breadth of untruths in his books — all of which, coincidentally, happen to make Allen sound like a juicier suspect than he really was. His version of Hartnell’s encounter with Allen was a complete bastardization of what actually happened, yet he STILL tells that stupid story. People have tried to engage him on this subject and he simply isn’t interested in admitting that he was wrong about anything.

Cheney is no Goldcatcher. Nor is he a perfect witness. Nor do I believe everything he has said. Could even believe that his brain is slipping, ala Ronald Reagan. Anybody old enough to remember the old "I don’t remember" malarky? Then you find out the guy had Altzheimer’s.

Someday someone should write a PDF clarifying the mistakes etc that were made in the first two books. Perhaps someone already has. I am just not ready to subscribe to a wholly baser motive in either of their cases. I think Cheney is an old guy who has warmed to his celebrity and is misremembering things. i would even bet that he could pass a polygraph because he doesn’t even know that he is doing wrong. Maybe he is so convinced that ALA did it he feels its a service to humanity, or something. Its a mystery within a mystery, frankly.

Let’s not forget about Spinelli who, at the end of 1990, also pointed the finger at Allen.

Would he have known by the book Zodiac that "Starr" was Allen? A Vallejo local probably would have, but if not, that tells me Allen enjoyed playing everyone. Unless Spinelli too was totally full of it–which would certainly makes sense since he was facing prison time. I mean, Zodiac threatened children and Spinelli never came forward until he faced incarceration? Swell. It also doesn’t seem to me like Allen would have gone to Spinelli seeking "employment" after their altercation in the late 50’s. –Remember me? I kicked your ass now I would like to work for you. I am a serial killer.

So either Allen liked to fool people or he was others patsy, imo.

–On a side note, Allen was in the police report and that it what got him noticed as a suspect by Graysmith. His first book I thought was darn good considering he was a political cartoonist doing the best he could trying to gather all the possible information he could. "Z2"….ick. If I read "limp", "gimp" or "gait" one more time…

Misspellings kill me. I am really enjoying "This is the Zodiac Speaking" but the fact that in the prologue the world "grizzly" is written for "grisly" is one of those horrors I find a hard time overlooking.

Spinelli is another freaking thing entirely. That guy is a hood, but, I HAVE read over the years that hoods of his age tend to get a little more pliant and tend to make good witnesses. Whatever. You kinda wonder about his motives if he knows all along ALA walked into his bar saying he was Z and the threats to schoolchildren? I mean, that is really pretty hard to swallow. If the guy has the sociopathic complacency to go on blithely with his business knowing that, how can you believe anything he says? But I wonder as well if he could have gleaned that Starr was Allen. I can’t remember, did the book talk about his altercation with ALA in the late fifties?

ALA is like the weather. I woke up today knowing he didn’t do it. Last week I knew he did. Either way, ALA was involved to some degree, whether as a groupie, or as Z. He was so "into" it. Of course, the same could be said about us.

Yes…it does seem that way. And one might say that’s a bit…well. If I had been in charge of the case I don’t think I would have bothered to have a warrant issued based on Spinelli’s statement. But VPD had a thing for Allen, that seems clear. They wanted to be 100% certain he wasn’t the guy. They even had yet another warrant issued after Allen’s death. I don’t know – maybe it was that someone (Bawart?) had convinced himself Allen had to be involved somehow, maybe it was an idea about public relations/pressure (they wanted to leave no stone unturned, so to speak), maybe a combination of factors.

Allen was, after all, the only "proper" suspect the case ever saw. I guess VPD may have thought that it was Allen or bust after so many years. Not a pleasant thought – but I think they MAY have been thinking that.

The thing about Bawart is that he admitted to carrying the yellow book around with him, to fill in the blanks of the files that were missing. I mean, I don’t care if RG was my freaking husband and I had all of his children and I believed everything he said was flawless- I kinda am bothered by that. Sorta like a benevolent dictatorship- if you only got one guy, you better hope he is a good one. There are enough agreeable flaws in Graysmith’s books- in fact- I can’t think of ANY book, apart from "Helter Skelter", that would be appropriate and factual enough for the lead detective to carry around with him with aplomb. That just makes me a wee nervous, on principle.

Hey mysterymachine, good luck on quitting smoking.

It is actually refreshing to see a discussion of Allen that is not full of BS.

I think I remember reading a long time ago that Allen got the cops called on him several times by his neighbor because his dog wouldn’t stop barking, and that they two of them were always fighting. Or something like that. I figured that is what led him to talk to Lynch.