"Might have"…leads the guy to be just about any body style, any hair color, etc.

That’s what a lot of people say if the descriptions don’t match their pet suspect…. Could have worn a wig, a fat suit, etc

I attempted to figure out what interview Jake Wark was referring to in Mike r’s post but didn’t have much luck. I did find another interview that Bryan did with KCRA TV about 10 days after the Berryessa attack. It is similar to what Bryan told LE but there are differences, too. I had never seen this interview before to the best of my recollection. The intro to the interview says that the original interview was almost 7 minutes and it doesn’t seem to me that there is seven minutes worth of material in what is posted. It would be nice to find the entire original news segment.

http://www.chasingthefrog.com/reelfaces/zodiac.php

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Interview with Zodiac Survivor Bryan Hartnell
The following is a transcript of a KCRA-TV, channel 3 news report, which aired at 12 noon on Tuesday, October 7, 1969. In the segment, KCRA’s Bill Harvey interviewed Zodiac survivor Bryan Hartnell at Queen of the Valley Hospital in Napa, California. The interview was conducted ten days after Bryan’s near fatal encounter with the Zodiac killer or "code killer" on Saturday September 27, 1969 at Lake Berryessa. Bryan’s female companion at the lake, Cecelia Shepard, parished from her injuries. Cecelia and Bryan had dated two years prior to the attack. She had come to his school to visit some friends and the two got to talking during dinner at the school cafeteria. They decided to take a drive out to the lake. The original news segment ran for a duration of 6 min. 47 seconds.

A young Pacific Union College student who survived a knife attack at Lake Berryessa a week ago Saturday in which his girl companion was killed is now in satisfactory condition at a Napa hospital and was able to talk about his ordeal. The police suspected Bryan Hartnell and Cecelia Shepard were victims of that so-called "code killer" believed responsible for three previous murders in the Vallejo area. Bryan talked about the events of that Saturday afternoon with KCRA’s Bill Harvey. It all started while Hartnell and Cecelia were sitting and talking quietly along the shore of the lake:

Bryan Hartnell photo zodiac victimBryan Hartnell: I happened to hear some rustling behind us and I asked her to look because she was facing that direction and I was facing toward the water and I asked her to note, you know, what was going on and she said "oh, there’s a man walking around there" and she became concerned about it. And I said, you know, well actually don’t worry about it, there’s a lot of people, picnickers, etc., and, you know, if he kept coming to let me know. She kind of kept watching, I noticed she wasn’t following my conversation, and she told me he was stepping behind a tree, the tree was about 30 feet behind us. And when he came out she said he’s got a mask on. That was my first inkling there was anything actually wrong going on. He came, I turned around, and we were both still sitting down and he told me that just to come up slowly and hold up my hands, that he wanted our money. And I actually laughed at the moment because I told him, I said, I’ve only got 75 cents in my pocket, and I said, you’re welcome to have it. But if you need help I’m sure I could give you help otherwise. I asked him what his problem was and he mentioned that he was a convict trying to get to Mexico and needed money and transportation. And I offered him assistance, I told him what I was doing in school and that if I could be of any assistance whatsoever–I offered him my phone number, anything like this, but this just wasn’t what he wanted, he said he wanted money. I was real sorry, I said, would you like a check, I’d really like to help you if you’d be willing to accept help. He said, well, what I need right now is to get you tied up. And so he had the girl tie me and, of course, she was real nervous and tied me rather loosely and he came and he tightened the knots up. Then he tied her up. And we continued to dialogue along most of this time. He told me to get down now, and he wanted to tie my ankles to my wrists and I offered some objection because I, you know, it was one thing being, sitting out there tied up and another thing having to lay out there tied up. I didn’t know when help would come. I still suspected this was still a robbery case and there was no reason for concern, I mean, I was cooperating with him, there was no reason why he would be acting otherwise.

Bryan Hartnell (Transcript Page 2): So, I finally, after he threatened me with the gun to get down, I did get down. He tied us both up separately but beside each other on our faces. He asked me to put my wrists tighter and he tied us up then. I did look around and he was messing with his gun and I got to see what the gun looked like and he put it away and I was convinced this was the end of the episode and I just rolled over on my face again, you know, just waiting for him to leave and to muse in my mind what we were going to do next, and how we were going to get away and how I was going to untie her, etc., etc. The next thing I can remember is the knife being put in my back.

Did you, after he attacked you, he then went and attacked the girl, did you see that?

Cecelia Shepard victimBryan Hartnell: Well, yeh, because as soon as he started getting me, the girl, of course, I don’t know what her, what she thought, but she started calling asking him to stop and almost trying to reach over and stop his blows because of course she was tied up and she could only just move, and he kind of put her on her side, I think, and as soon as he had given me about six or seven blows he went on to her and I looked and I saw he was stabbing her and it just really made me sick to see the fellow and there was nothing I could do, so I just turned on my face and lay real still, you know, because there was nothing I could do.

Can you describe for us what your attacker looked like?

Bryan Hartnell: Well, when he was standing up he would kind of shift around, he acted like a very nervous person, he was of medium to short height, kind of pouchy, real casually, I don’t want to say sloppily, but real casually dressed and, of course, a little dusty from the lake, and he had this black hood on that came clear down to here. Just little slits in the eyes and wearing these clip-on glasses, they were clipped into those little loops. zodiac killer sketch See Robert Graysmith’s Zodiac Killer sketch.

You remained conscious through the entire ordeal. How long was it until help finally came?

Bryan Hartnell: Well, as soon as he got us, of course, CeCe and I prayed that whatever the Lord wished that it could be expedient and that we would be willing to do whatever He had in mind. But we also realized that half of the battle was going to have to be ours, that we were going to have to help ourselves. And, I got till I was able to untie one of her hands, but she was too weak to untie me at that time, so I scooted into a position where I could be looking out across the lake and after calling several times I found one position that had a little more

Bryan Hartnell (Transcript Page 3): echo to it that I thought was a little louder and I called and several boats went by but they didn’t stop. I don’t know if they thought we were joking, or what. But finally one fisherman who was going a little slow, he stopped and shut off his motor, and we cajoled and called and we did everything to try to get him to come. He sat there for about fifteen minutes and he did finally come closer but wouldn’t come to the shore, I guess he was afraid the man might still be around. And he said he’d go get help. But I assumed he was like a lot of people you read about, he just didn’t want to get involved. So I decided that we were going to have to do this on our own. So I encouraged her enough to get me untied, I got one wrist loose so that I could get the rest untied. Then I untied her. She was still so weak she couldn’t move.

How were you finally found?

Bryan Hartnell: Well, she was found down on the blanket still, I made it up about 300 yards, up almost to the road, it was a slow process because I kept blacking, I couldn’t see, I kept blacking out and my legs kept getting weak, but I was making progress, I think I could have made it to the road. But a pickup truck was coming along one of the dirt roads, apparently this man had called for help and he picked me up and took me back down to the girl.

Hi-

It is always so bizarre to see how Hartnell referred to Cecelia as "she" or "the girl." I wonder why he did that. And it is worthwhile to explore the height/weight issue because Hartnell says he was a poor judge of height and because Zodiac may have bulked up in order to look more threatening/imposing than he actually was as part of his plan to scare the kids. Maybe he learned something from Mageau…and the point of my post is that if Hartnell said that Z may have bulked up in an interview then maybe he actually felt that this was a possibility. That is Hartnell speaking, not me. That is why I want to see this interview…to see what he actually said not what Jake posted.

Mike

Well, there’s Mageau again. He’s a problem in this possible baggy attire/looked larger than he was scenario. According to Mike, Z was "real beefy" in a t-shirt.

As debated elsewhere, this is a considerable problem. Unless we want to simply dismiss Mike’s testimony, we have to go down the fatsuit road (so to speak). We have to presuppose that a guy who seemingly had no qualms about attacking without a mask (at BRS, I mean – and at PH for that matter), donned a fat suit (not literally, but the idea is clear enough) in order to disguise his true body shape – but, again, not his face.

I’ve never seen that particular interview, but it wasn’t the only time Hartnell mentioned the weight issue:

“I remember when I was first talked to, I mean, I had the guy being a walrus, you know… He had one of those Sears-type of jackets, you know, those can be either lined or unlined, and if it’s lined, a person could be thin, if it’s unlined the person would be heavy… I mean, he’s not obese.”
http://www.zodiackillerfacts.com/Descriptions.htm

"…one of the early things I screwed them up on is that I had this guy as being really fat. I said either the guy was moderately heavy and wearing a windbreaker, or he was skinny and wearing a lined jacket . . . kind of a cotton poplin, crew collar, and gathered around the sleeves, ordinary garden-variety short jacket. How much he weighed depended on whether that was lined or unlined." – ZODIAC UNMASKED

I’ve never seen that particular interview, but it wasn’t the only time Hartnell mentioned the weight issue:

“I remember when I was first talked to, I mean, I had the guy being a walrus, you know… He had one of those Sears-type of jackets, you know, those can be either lined or unlined, and if it’s lined, a person could be thin, if it’s unlined the person would be heavy… I mean, he’s not obese.”
http://www.zodiackillerfacts.com/Descriptions.htm

"…one of the early things I screwed them up on is that I had this guy as being really fat. I said either the guy was moderately heavy and wearing a windbreaker, or he was skinny and wearing a lined jacket . . . kind of a cotton poplin, crew collar, and gathered around the sleeves, ordinary garden-variety short jacket. How much he weighed depended on whether that was lined or unlined." – ZODIAC UNMASKED

And of course this 2nd part coming from a man who thought Zodiac was Arthur Leigh Allen…a big guy.

Hi-

It is always so bizarre to see how Hartnell referred to Cecelia as "she" or "the girl." I wonder why he did that….

I found this interesting in the sense that others use Zodiac’s reference of "the girl", etc., to mean Zodiac was an older individual. I think this proves that isn’t necessarily the case.

Bryan also uses the word "episode"…which I thought was odd. No–I don’t think he was Zodiac.

Frustrating all around….

Z looked 35-45 according to the Stine SFPD sketched

sounded like he was young or a student in his 20’s to Hartnell & Slaight

Was well over 200 lbs according to Ken Narlow’s team…

and was 130 lbs according to the psychic,Deluise

May have been 6ft2 if he was the guy watching the girls at the lake. but according to others could be shorter

The varying accounts of Z make it possible that he could be ‘anybody’

"unless we simply dismiss Michael’s statement"—-yes, do that. He’s just too "all over the place"—on the car and everything else.

"unless we simply dismiss Michael’s statement"—-yes, do that. He’s just too "all over the place"—on the car and everything else.

He was just as sure as everyone else in 1969. Later in life he was messed up. Even people who weren’t messed up changed their stories so it’s no surprise Mike M. altered his. The reports in 1969 were straight forward. He stated what he knew and acknowledged what he wasn’t sure of.

I don’t see how you can say with any degree of certainty that he wasn’t messed up in 1969. He WAS messed up physically–he had bullet holes in various places in his body. Very possible his memory was affected by his traumatic experience.

In 1969, he was telling the story as it happened and as he remembered it right after it happened. What he didn’t know, he plainly said so. If he didn’t know what Zodiac was wearing, he wouldn’t have made it up. He would have simply said he didn’t know.

Mike said he was "beefy" in a "t-shirt". And for those with POI’s who don’t fit that bill, it seems to be an issue.

Considering Mike said it, the PH folks said it, and for the most part Bryan said it–it seems that body type fits…and it fits without masked bulkiness.

In 1969, he was telling the story as it happened and as he remembered it right after it happened. What he didn’t know, he plainly said so. If he didn’t know what Zodiac was wearing, he wouldn’t have made it up. He would have simply said he didn’t know.

Yeah, how do you know all this? How do you know he didn’t make anything up? Or that he would say so, if he didn’t know? The only thing in this quote that’s not speculation is that he indeed told the story right after it happened. You give the impression that you are Michael Mageau’s twin brother and/or you were the detective that conducted the original interview or that you have some other connection to MM that gives you the inside track to what exactly was going on in his mind at the time, and why he told a completely accurate, factual account this one time whereas in his later stories he was "all over the place."

 

In this video at 3:05 in, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgNpIP8p0ww

The ranger mentions Bryan felt he wasn’t going to make it and wanted to relay a description of Z, that "he was a big guy, 6ft or better, over 200lbs"

This is Bryan’s account an hour or so after the attack, I think this is a realistic & accurate description of Z as witnessed by Bryan. That description closely matches size of the mystery guy watching the girls

By the way,anybody know if that Ranger is Ray Land?

PH witnesses had him at 5-8—-5-10 and around 200 lbs.–stocky.