Hey Tahoe. I always thought it interesting how Bryan Hartnell in spite of having a stranger wearing an odd hood and pointing a pistol at him, never really took him as a threat. I mean, obviously he was a threat but he thought of it as a bizarre robbery and figured he could get a nice Sociology paper out of the experience.

I think this speaks to who Z was under the mask. Somebody who you wouldn’t take serious. I don’t know about you but sometimes in life, I hear people speaking to me and the way they speak (or voice) I just can’t listen to them or take them serious. I know that sounds bad but I’m sure we can all relate.

What do you think?

Totally agree. Zodiac was a nobody, the kind of person who wouldn’t elicit a second look on the street from anybody, perhaps even someone so pathetic you’d even turn your head to avoid making eye-contact. He wasn’t powerful, he had no control, and that’s why he had to create this character.

And as for Bryan, every time I hear him talk about how he crawled for help to try and save his friend’s life, I choke up. The man’s a damn hero, plain and simple.

Totally agree. Zodiac was a nobody, the kind of person who wouldn’t elicit a second look on the street from anybody, perhaps even someone so pathetic you’d even turn your head to avoid making eye-contact. He wasn’t powerful, he had no control, and that’s why he had to create this character.

Agreed, he was someone who couldn’t garner respect and admiration in real life, Zodiac was his way of feeling powerful.

And as for Bryan, every time I hear him talk about how he crawled for help to try and save his friend’s life, I choke up. The man’s a damn hero, plain and simple.

Yes, he never panicked. His remaining calm probably kept things from being worse, I mean, Zodiac could have cut their throats to make sure. I think Bryan threw him off and as I said, might have even intimidated Zodiac. I feel like Bryan’s actions that day at least gave them both a chance to survive and I think there was a good chance Cecelia could have survived if it didn’t take so long for an ambulance to arrive.

Nonononono…there was no LB letter..

First, Z had only two weeks inbetween LB and Stine attack, thus he couldn’t wait a month or so to send the letter. Second, Z explicitly ‘excused’ himself for not having written a letter.

"Sorry I haven’t written but I just washed my pen.."

QT

Z gave precise details of his shootings at LHR, BRS, and PH. He mentions nothing of LB. This is because he didn’t attack Cecelia and Bryan. It would’ve been ridiculously easy to cut a piece of Bryan’s shirt and include it with a gloating letter but he didn’t. 2 weeks later he was in full gloat mode with the Stine shirt as exhibit A.

This is why the descriptions from LB and the other crime scenes are so different, as well as the method of murder, time of day, costume not seen at BRS or PH, and on and on. Different killers, vastly different methods of operation. Both called themself Zodiac but that is virtually the only similarity.

The LB attacker was wearing a very well made hood, Hartnell commented that it was not simply "thrown together" and that the symbol looked like it had been made very skillfully and with great care. Was this a zodiac "wanna-be"? I am not sure.

…though it does have some key features which differ from the other zodiac attacks…

I have coincidentally come up with a different "most likely perpetrator" for each of the zodiac crimes…

…if it were not for the letters to the press, the phoned confession calls, and the notes left at the crime scenes, would these crimes have ever even been connected?

There is something odd about the zodiac case in that by all means it should have been solved by now, yet every attempt has failed. I mean, what was this? What was this really about? What is the real story here?

The zodiac case is like starting to read a murder mystery novel, but finding that the section at the end of the book where the killer is identified and his evil plan is explained in detail is missing… …it’s frustrating.

I mean, if ross Sullivan was the killer of Cheri jo Bates, if Richard Hoffman was the shooter at blue rock springs, and Arthur Leigh allen was the killer lake berryessa, then how did these crimes ever get connected in the manner in which they did?

It would make sense if "zodiac" was actually a few people working together, but the people would have to know each other and have real connections to one another, I mean, it can’t be a different killer for each crime with these killers not knowing each other or being connected in some way…

The zodiac case in general is odd… There must be something that we have all missed that will make this all fit together.

Well, one major thing is, we don’t know everything the police know. For some reason, they seem convinced LHR, BRS, LB and Stine are all the work of the same guy. I’m guessing they have something solid to base that on, something besides letters and phone calls.

Some suspected Zodiac attacks, like Domningos/Edwards, CJB, Lass, they don’t include and it’s probably because they can’t connect them with the solid evidence they have on the other "known cases".

Pretty sure it’s the car door.

Usually the simplest explanation is the most likely to be true. I just can’t believe multiple people working together, or multiple people working separately (but copying eachother) could have pulled this off. There are so many things that would need to go just right for it to have turned out the way it did, and above all, to remain unsolved for this long. No, I strongly am of the opinion that there has always been only one person who knows exactly what Zodiac did and thought, at least when it comes to the canonical cases.

There are many details here and there that seem "out of place" for Zodiac but in my opinion they’re not enough to facilitate there having been multiple people involved. I think that if Zodiac would have been solved, the lack of letter about Berryessa attack would just be one of the details nobody even notices because he did write on the car door after all. There is probably a lot of stuff like that, small deviations from the usual pattern, with serial killers whose identities have been solved, just like there is with regular people.

Z gave precise details of his shootings at LHR, BRS, and PH. He mentions nothing of LB. This is because he didn’t attack Cecelia and Bryan. It would’ve been ridiculously easy to cut a piece of Bryan’s shirt and include it with a gloating letter but he didn’t. 2 weeks later he was in full gloat mode with the Stine shirt as exhibit A.

This is why the descriptions from LB and the other crime scenes are so different, as well as the method of murder, time of day, costume not seen at BRS or PH, and on and on. Different killers, vastly different methods of operation. Both called themself Zodiac but that is virtually the only similarity.

I’ve heard this before but how do you explain Z writing on Bryan’s door? It has been verified that it is Z’s handwriting.

IF the guy at LB was not Zodiac, it was easy to pull off. They were looking for Zodiac.

As an example–if a LB suspect was out of state, in a mental institution, etc., when Stine was killed, they’d say it couldn’t have been him because they were looking for Zodiac…who obviously was not in any of those situations at the time.

I think it would be a shame if that happened. I would think law enforcement wouldn’t do that, but who knows.

Nonononono…there was no LB letter..

First, Z had only two weeks inbetween LB and Stine attack, thus he couldn’t wait a month or so to send the letter. Second, Z explicitly ‘excused’ himself for not having written a letter.

"Sorry I haven’t written but I just washed my pen.."

QT

Great catch, QT.

Usually the simplest explanation is the most likely to be true. I just can’t believe multiple people working together, or multiple people working separately (but copying eachother) could have pulled this off. There are so many things that would need to go just right for it to have turned out the way it did, and above all, to remain unsolved for this long. No, I strongly am of the opinion that there has always been only one person who knows exactly what Zodiac did and thought, at least when it comes to the canonical cases.

Same here. There’s that old saying "two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead". More than one person involved significantly raises the chance of one making a mistake, saying the wrong thing to the wrong person or any number of things.

However, I do not discount the possibility, just find it highly unlikely.

Nonononono…there was no LB letter..

First, Z had only two weeks inbetween LB and Stine attack, thus he couldn’t wait a month or so to send the letter. Second, Z explicitly ‘excused’ himself for not having written a letter.

"Sorry I haven’t written but I just washed my pen.."

QT

Great catch, QT.

Why would he need a month to write about Lake Berryessa? He wrote within 2 days of killing Stine.

The Dripping Pen card came after the Stine letter, so not sure how that excused himself from writing about Lake Berryessa.

He did not need to wait one month but also hadn’t the time to do so. Nothing special about that but he did excuse for not having written..(maybe he even did wash his pen). May or may not be related to LB.

QT

He did not need to wait one month but also hadn’t the time to do so. Nothing special about that but he did excuse for not having written..(maybe he even did wash his pen). May or may not be related to LB.

QT

Do you know what Zodiac was doing? Seriously though. I’m not sure what you mean by him not having time to write. He wrote about Stine, pretty much right away. Why did he need time with LB?

He had written, about Stine, so excusing himself from writing would be from something after that…not before. It was almost a month later when the card came in…after the Stine letter. I’d say definitely not about LB.