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Quicktrader
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Hi,

just made up my thoughts about which crime of Z is the most crucial regarding its informational content. No question, they are all. Nevertheless one thing seems to become more and more unreal..Z selecting his victims accidentially.

At LHR it appears as if a.) either a white car was earlier at the scene or b.) a blue car was seeking its way along LHR / the guard or c.) Connely or Owen being involved or a third man walking up LHR.
At BRS it appears as if Z had arrived at sort of a young people’s meeting point, checked out the area and who is there, left, and came back with a gun. And earlier being at the same Diner or FC parade.

Not to mention about Darlene being stalked previously or that she had told that she had observed a murder (‘Oh, never mind..’). Or David, holding his class ring. Or Paul Stine with his connections to the Vallejo area, stopping close to Latterman Hospital, where Donna Lass had worked before. And in which direction Z had fled that night. All that doesn’t match to a killer – who by himself mentions to having a ‘little list’ – who is choosing his victims accidentially.

Lake Berryessa, imo, is the proof: Indeed, three witnesses had seen a man peeking around in the area. Possible that he had watched them. But it is also possible, that he actually was looking or even searching for his victims, those for whom he had already plans for. Because he may have heard that they’ll be there. Dozens of miles away from Vallejo. Not only that he had plans to kill, no, he did also prepare his crime. He had stolen or bought some clothesline and cut it into pieces and put it behind his belt. He mainly wore dark clothes during that sunny day. He brought a 10-12-inch knife with him, which appeared home-made, and took his – loaded – gun. In hours or at least some minutes, he had sewn a mask, colored it black and painted a cross on his chest. He organized clip-on sunglasses and so on and so on.

Then, before starting to committing his crime, he is not just walking around Lake Berryessa to select potential victims. Nope. He drives directly towards a rural area, as if he was particularly searching around Lake Berryessa for someone, and parks his car directly behind the Shepard/Hartnell’s. As if he had known the car. He puts on his mask, takes all his stuff and starts to watch the Shepard/Hartnell couple. Those two, not just having arrived (therefore being followed) but rather already laying in the sun for a while, in this rural part of Lake Berryessa. He walks down there, directly towards them, hides behind a tree. To put his mask on, to prepare his well-planned crime, again.

Zodiac parked directly behind Shepard/Hartnell’s car.
http://zodiackiller.com/TireTracks.html

After binding – he exactly tells them what to do, even does not forget to check the knots – he starts to stab them and casually walks away. The girl he stabbed twice more often than the boy, possibly implying that his feelings against her were stronger than against him. Before all that, he tells his story about having escaped from some lodge. Tales, he also asked for money and the car keys – but overall did not take them. He pretended to perform a robbery, in fact this was rather a very emotional crime.

As if nothing had happened, he walks up to the Shepard/Hartnell’s car. He takes a felt pen – prepared or taken from his car – gets on his knees and starts writing a 43 letter text message on the passenger’s car door. One thing is for sure…the area must have been quite rural and without any other cars or people there if he had the time to do all of that. Then, after having killed Cecilia Shepard and wounded Bryan Hartnell seriously, he pulls back his car without any panic to be seen by someone else, and simply drives away.

And then, there still is Cecilia Shepard’s connection to Riverside / Loma Linda, a few hundred miles away from both, Vallejo and Lake Berryessa. ‘Bates had to die’ is also not the communication I’d expect from a serial killer, who prefers selecting his victims accidentially.

What I would like to say is that all those crimes are to be first degree murders. But not limited to that, Zodiac had in fact known his victims. Not sure if Betty Lou or Cecilia Shepard had known him, but he at least had known Darlene Ferrin, Cheri Jo Bates and Cecilia Shepard. He knew how to hide in the dark, using his flashlight at BRS. The mysterious man with Darlene Ferrin. Cecilia Shepard, could not see him because of his mask. Also she was in the Theatre (Mikado?) together with an unknown man only some days before.

All that makes me believe that Z was well-connected to at least some of his victims.

BTW, an interesting question can be found here: Did Cecilia Shepard know CJB’s San Francisco boyfriend?
http://zodiackiller.fr.yuku.com/topic/3055

Another small detail: On the day Cecilia was murdered, both, Bryan and Cecilia had been in St. Helena. Bryan bought a TV there and, because of not enough space in his car, drove back to Pacific Union College. There he placed the TV in his dorm room and went back to Cecilia. This also explains why CS and BH did not go to SF (Judith?) but rather went to Lake Berryessa, which is closer to St. Helena (also closer, btw, is Santa Rosa..).

Therefore, Z planned his attack – at least 1-2 hours before committing the crime – and may have followed due to various events (market in St. Helena where Bryan bought the TV, SDA church, Pacific Union College etc.) the couple. On the other hand, Cecilia and Bryan decided spontaneously to go to LB, which is why – if Z had known e.g. Cecilia – at least one of the must have told him that they’ll go to Lake Berryessa.

It then would have been easy for e.g. someone at Pacific Union College to follow them, even preparing some mask would have been possible. At Lake Berryessa, looking for the car, it would have been also easy to find them. In fact there is even a witness report, 8/10th of a mile away from the crime scene, of a Dr. Clifton … and a David Lee … who have seen the suspect searching/walking around with dark clothes near the shoreline, as if Z had searched for Cecilia and Bryan.

Instead of being a killer from the Lake Berryessa area, Z later being back in Vallejo..with his calm voice.

Arizona Republic 25 Oct. 1969 p.38
‘Zodiac’ was calm, stabbed man says United Press International SAN FRANCISCO — A survivor of an attack by the "Zodiac" killer said yesterday ••the murderer had such an un=Usually calm voice "it never entered my mind that he would try to kill us." The voice, said Bryan Hartnell, a prelaw student who spent half an hour talking with "Zodiac" before being critically stabbed, did not seem to be that of the troubled man who called a television talk show Wednesday to talk to attorney Melvin Belli. Hartnell listened to tapes of the television program Wednesday and again yesterday. He said he could not be sure whether the voices were the same or not. At the first session, he said, it was extremely difficult to concentrate on tone and voice structure because of the presence of television news cameramen in the room. But he said it seemed the voice which told Belli, "I’ve got to kill,’ was younger and more excitable than Zodiac. Hartnell and Cecilia Ann Shepard, 22, encountered the man believed to be Zodiac Sept. 27 while picknicking on a lonely beach near Lake Berryessa in Napa County 60 miles northeast of San Francisco. The attacker, standing 40 feet away behind a tree, donned a black hood and then ordered the couple, at gunpoint, to give him money. He directed Miss Shepard to tie up Hartnell with clothesline he provided and then he tied up the girl. Meanwhile, the intruder talked to Hartnell in a calm, quiet voice. "He said nothing to make me frightened," Hartnell said. "It never entered my mind that he would try to kill us." He said the man told him he had killed a man in a recent escape from a Montana prison and needed money to help him get to Mexico. Hartnell a Seventh-day Adventist, said he had only 75 cents, but repeatedly offered, "I would like to give you help. Take my phone number. You are welcome to come and visit me.". Then, when the couple was hog-tied and lying on their stomachs, the man pulled a knife and without a word stabbed Miss Shepard 20 times and Hartnell a dozen times. The only sounds were groans and the girl’s cries, "Stop, stop." After the attacker’s departure, the couple extricated themselves and obtained help. The dates of three previous "Zodiao" slayings were later found written on their car, and "Zodiac" took credit for the attack in a series of notes to police and newspapers. Miss Shepard died two days later, but Hartnell recovered and is back at Pacific Union College in Napa. Since then, four other murders have been attributed to Zodiac and police in five counties are watching school buses because of his threat to kill schoolchildren "as they come off the bus." Police considered thousands of suggestions from the public, including the observation yesterday of an astrologer, Alex Hover, who saw an astrological pattern to the timing of the crimes. However, Hoyer would not project a date when Zodiac might strike again. IVo suspects found in Cincinnati slaying United Press International .CINCINNATI – Homicide detectives said yesterday they still have no suspects in the slaying of three socially prominent residents. "We have not picked up anyone or talked to anyone as a, suspect," Sgt. Eugene JVJoore of the homicide squad said. "We have interviewed several people but none of those interviews has turned up anything significant." Police earlier said they wanted to talk to a man in his 30s wearing paint- splattered clothing. Investigators talked to a painter seen in the neighborhood on Wednesday but he was not held. Martin Dumler II, 29, his wife, Patricia, 27, and his mother-in-law, Mrs. Mary Wilson, 50, were shot and stabbed to death in the Dumler home on Beverly Hills Drive in Mount Lookout Wednesday night. Jackson said the Dumler two-story brick and frame house was painted recently and officers sought to learn the name of the firm which contracted the job. Dumler, sales manager for Chatfield Wood & Sack Co., was shot in the head and stabbed in the chest. His wife was shot in the head and stabbed twice, Mrs. Wilson was shot in the head. Two steak knives were found in the house, one in the bedroom and another downstairs. Police said both appeared to have blood on them, but tests on the blades had not been completed. The two Dumler children, Jean, 5, and Martin III, 4, slept through the slayings and were not harmed. The Dumler family has been prominent in Cincinnati social circles for years. The dead man’s father, Martin H. Dumler, is president of the Chatfield firm.

QT

*ZODIACHRONOLOGY*

 
Posted : January 21, 2014 6:00 am
Seagull
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Soze, I don’t think that Bryan Hartnell will speak to anyone except LE about that day. What you could do though to narrow down where the rummage sale might have been is to contact the Napa County Library reference desk and ask the librarian if they could send you the want ads for that week that were in the St. Helena Star, specifically the yard sales. I know that the library has the St. Helena Star for that time period on microfilm because in the past I got a couple of articles related to the LB case from them. It’s a weekly paper so it shouldn’t be too much trouble.

http://countyofnapa.org/library/

www.santarosahitchhikermurders.com

 
Posted : March 31, 2015 12:49 am
morf13
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I thought that them stopping at the lake was random? The Guy seen watching the sun bathing girls was there much earlier before Bryan & Celia got there. If he was already there watching the Girls(assuming this is what you are implying), could he still have followed them to Berryessa from the college? Again, them doing the stuff they did that day was random, not planned. It’s certainly interesting and worth exploring, but I just don’t know how likely this all is. I do find it interesting that yet again, a Riverside connection comes up in the Zodiac case.

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : March 31, 2015 1:26 am
Norse
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I VERY vaguely recall someone mentioning once that the rummage sale might have been organized by some 7th-day Adventist group or other (or at least that it had some connection to that, BH and CS were Adventists, as we know). If that’s the case, it should narrow it down pretty nicely.

I think it’s unlikely but not impossible that they were followed/stalked. The problem with the stalking theory is obviously that it if the attacker was Z, it would seem to blow the case wide open in terms of what sort of killer he actually was (and in terms of what his motives were).

It would have been very difficult, if not impossible, to predict precisely what BH and CS were going to do that day – as morf says, their actions were pretty random. So, a stalker would have, presumably, followed them around all day. One may ask if not a perceptive guy like BH would have noticed this – same car following them around Napa, St Helena and I suppose the campus area too…and then following them to LB. I don’t know – it seems unlikely to me, but you never know.

 
Posted : March 31, 2015 2:43 am
Seagull
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The Seventh Day Adventist Sabbath is on Saturday and no work is performed on the Sabbath. The community of Angwin, where the college is located, is totally shut down on Saturdays to the extent that there is no mail delivery on Saturdays. They receive their mail on Sundays. I really doubt that the rummage sale would have been connected to the Seventh Day Adventist church, not on a Saturday.

www.santarosahitchhikermurders.com

 
Posted : March 31, 2015 3:07 am
Norse
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Well, I honestly have no idea to what extent Adventists frown upon garage sales on the sabbath, so I can’t comment on that. Just mentioned what I – very vaguely – recall seeing somewhere. But what you say makes sense, certainly.

 
Posted : March 31, 2015 4:11 am
 Soze
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I have looked at this thread several times since I first post. Can’t understand how I or anyone else has missed this thread for a year. Its a great post by quicktrader!

I’m for the following from St. Helena to Berryessa. Curious how it is thought that the guy seen by the three girls is thought to have been there before Hartnell & Shepard? I always looked at it as he followed them from Helena, lost track of them some how and, searched the beach area for them which is how the girls came to spot him. He leaves, spots the car, parks up ahead and walks from where the doctor sees him. Keep in mind that my work has been more about the letters and not so much about the victims. So I don’t know a whole lot about each individual case.

Soze

 
Posted : March 31, 2015 10:52 am
Tahoe27
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I have looked at this thread several times since I first post. Can’t understand how I or anyone else has missed this thread for a year. Its a great post by quicktrader!

I’m for the following from St. Helena to Berryessa. Curious how it is thought that the guy seen by the three girls is thought to have been there before Hartnell & Shepard? I always looked at it as he followed them from Helena, lost track of them some how and, searched the beach area for them which is how the girls came to spot him. He leaves, spots the car, parks up ahead and walks from where the doctor sees him. Keep in mind that my work has been more about the letters and not so much about the victims. So I don’t know a whole lot about each individual case.

Soze

Soze,

The three girls were there earlier when they encountered the man they describe. Read it closely–VERY similar to what Bryan & Cecelia experience; he parked above, came down to them. Same description Bryan gives: size, hair, cloths, and one girl describes what she thought was a white belt, etc.

http://www.zodiackiller.com/LBReport8.html

No proof Bryan and Cecelia were followed. They had actually planned to go to S.F., and decided last minute (since it was getting late) to go to Berryessa.


…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep. L.A. Times, 1969

 
Posted : March 31, 2015 11:38 am
Pettibon Junction
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Cecilia Shepard, could not see him because of his mask.

Cecilia Shepard *DID* see him without his mask, pretty clearly by some accounts, and gave no indication whatsoever that she knew the man. Not before the attack, not during it, and not afterwards. And since the killer was hanging around the park and creeping people out all afternoon BEFORE he found Shepard and Hartnell early that evening, there’s no way he could have possibly followed them there. There is no evidence that this or any of the other confirmed 1968-69 Zodiac crimes was anything but random.

"There are such devils."
-The Pledge

 
Posted : March 31, 2015 4:04 pm
Norse
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I largely agree, Pettibon.

To my thinking it’s impossible to theorize that Z knew CS without also theorizing that he knew his other victims – and what goes for her, goes for them (only even more so, the more numerous they become): There simply isn’t anything solid – or even remotely tangible – to suggest that he did know them.

It’s also necessary to presuppose that Z was not the man who creeped out the three girls (which I have less trouble doing, but it will be a deal breaker for many and I can certainly see why).

There is a third possibility here, though (I’m almost afraid to mention it – and I don’t subscribe to it myself): The man who attacked BH and CS, and who may possibly, conceivably have stalked them, was not Z.

However, regardless of who he was, his behavior does not jibe with someone who knew his victims. He talked to them, at length. Would he have done that if he was worried about being recognized? And if he was not worried about that, why wear the mask in the first place? And if he was simply worried about having his face seen (by either victims or witnesses), why on earth did he feel compelled to wear that ridiculous costume? He could have used a ski mask or a stocking.

 
Posted : March 31, 2015 4:45 pm
morf13
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Cecilia Shepard, could not see him because of his mask.

And since the killer was hanging around the park and creeping people out all afternoon BEFORE he found Shepard and Hartnell early that evening, there’s no way he could have possibly followed them there.

We don’t know for sure that Z was the Guy creeping out people all after noon

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : March 31, 2015 5:19 pm
Pettibon Junction
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We don’t know for sure that Z was the Guy creeping out people all after noon

True, at this point we’ll likely never know anything for sure, but the likelihood of two heavy-set, identically-dressed dead-ringers for the Presidio heights composite doing creepy stuff at Lake Berryessa that day is slim-to-none. Perhaps it’s a minority opinion, but I’m pretty comfortable in my presumption that the LB stalker, the murderer of Cecilia Shepard, and the Zodiac Killer are all one and the same person.

"There are such devils."
-The Pledge

 
Posted : March 31, 2015 5:55 pm
morf13
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We don’t know for sure that Z was the Guy creeping out people all after noon

True, at this point we’ll likely never know anything for sure, but the likelihood of two heavy-set, identically-dressed dead-ringers for the Presidio heights composite doing creepy stuff at Lake Berryessa that day is slim-to-none. Perhaps it’s a minority opinion, but I’m pretty comfortable in my presumption that the LB stalker, the murderer of Cecilia Shepard, and the Zodiac Killer are all one and the same person.

It’s possible they were the same Guy, but then again, they really do not look much alike

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : March 31, 2015 6:30 pm
Pettibon Junction
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It’s possible they were the same Guy, but then again, they really do not look much alike

Again, minority opinion, but the Napa and PH sketches share similar eyes, ears, and noses which means the witnesses likely chose the same shapes from the identikit that the artist presented them with. The PH drawing adds some wrinkles to the face and pouts up the lips a bit but apart from a cheap pair of costume glasses and a date with a Flow-Bee, they’re a match. (And since I’m on the subject of haircuts, I’d bet dollars to doughnuts that after Paul Stine, our guy went home and buzzed that iconic crew-cut down to a uniform 1/16" post-haste.)

I place a lot of stock in the Napa sketch, as it’s the result of a number of witnesses viewing a suspect under optimal (daylight) conditions for an extended period of time. Lake Berryessa was the only daytime crime the Zodiac is known to have committed and it represents the longest period of time he’s spent at the scene and thus, the best possibility of usable forensics. Unfortunately, we know now that the crime scene wasn’t properly secured, nor traditionally processed. (Do we have any idea what happened to the discarded cigarette butts the hefty weirdo left behind?)

Maybe I’m just being overly optimistic. After all, if all the physical evidence is at best contaminated and at worst gone, there’s some solace to be had in believing that the killer at least showed us his face.

"There are such devils."
-The Pledge

 
Posted : March 31, 2015 7:08 pm
morf13
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Well, the fact the Guy at the lake seen by the Girls,had a light blue car is interesting, as light blue cars have also popped up in the z case

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : March 31, 2015 7:12 pm
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