Hi-

Based on my experience speaking to a retired detective from SF, it is a myth that Z will be convicted on handwriting alone. It may sound good in a book or sound bite but the real world is different. That goes double for a sample as small as the car door, IMO.

Mike

Hi-

Based on my experience speaking to a retired detective from SF, it is a myth that Z will be convicted on handwriting alone. It may sound good in a book or sound bite but the real world is different. That goes double for a sample as small as the car door, IMO.

Mike

I agree, Zodiac is NOT going to be convicted on writing alone, I have been told this by multiple sources, however, it is just one tool in the tool box to make a case against Zodiac. That writing matches the zodiac letters, therefore, they can link Z to that crime.

Now,I am pretty sure police DID ask them not to print photos of the door, in fact, there is one photo out there with brown paper bag material over top of the door, covering the words, ‘by knife’. Ken Narlow told me something about why they did that but I cant remember.

It’s interesting they would conceal "by knife" AND hold the picture back. Guess they weren’t taking chances.

I know I’m not the first to notice, but those open circles and curvy/candy cane Fs connect to:

– The first Zodiac letters from July 31st (indisputably Z)
– Berryessa (only time Z wrote on a car door, only "confirmed" daytime murder and stabbing, only known appearance of the notorious hood)
– The Times letter (contentious Riverside confession, postmarked from Pleasanton instead of S.F., last of the original series of Z letters)
– The desk poem (endless debate re: Z’s involvement with Riverside)

It doesn’t appear that the papers reproduced any of Zodiac’s handwriting (bar the ciphers) until Stine, so if LB was a copycat, he copped two of Z’s most memorable handwriting traits purely by happenstance.

However, by 1971, any hoaxer who read the papers would have known about double-postage, lack of zips/indents, "Calif," "Please rush to Editor," blue felt tip…AND there would have been multiple handwriting samples to imitate or trace. Regardless, I’ve yet to find a clear example of the dots or Fs. There’s a couple of borderline Fs on the Pen card, but they’re rather subtle.

Based on his letters, Zodiac read the Chronicle, Examiner, Register, and Times-Herald. He apparently did not read the News-Chronicle or Daily Republic. On August 4, the Times-Herald printed a life-size photocopy of their copy of the July 31 letter in its entirety, including the circled crosshair symbol. Other papers published photocopies of parts of the other letters, including circle-type periods (there are no colons in those letters.)

None of the papers Zodiac read had published the name, "Zodiac." The attacker did not mention the name "Zodiac" to Bryan and Cecelia, the caller did not mention the name "Zodiac" to Slaight, and of course, he did not write the name on Bryan’s car door. So, yes, it is definitely POSSIBLE that the assailant (and caller) were not the person writing letters to the newspapers. And the handwriting on the car door is not exactly a perfect match for the letters. And Zodiac always used a blue felt tip pen, but the message on the car door was in black felt tip ink.

Is it POSSIBLE that "Zodiac" deliberately left open the possibility that he could later blame a copycat for Berryessa? Sure is.

Is it POSSIBLE that the Berryessa attacker was a copycat? Sure is. There have been lots of Zodiac copycats.

Yes. The VTH letter was copied and printed in it’s entirety in the Vallejo paper on August 4th.

For some reason it was not carried over to this new site. I went ahead and added it.

Here is the link to the letter as published on Aug. 4, 1969: viewtopic.php?f=94&t=165&p=439#p439

On August 4, the Times-Herald printed a life-size photocopy of their copy of the July 31 letter in its entirety, including the circled crosshair symbol. Other papers published photocopies of parts of the other letters, including circle-type periods (there are no colons in those letters.)

Those scans are very slow-loading for me, I had to open them one-at-a-time until I found the relevant article. That letter also had variations on the infamous "f."

Yes. The VTH letter was copied and printed in it’s entirety in the Vallejo paper on August 4th.

T., I didn’t see the letter (the second letter) in that thread…. It’s not my eyesight is it? I hope not.

…..Other papers published photocopies of parts of the other letters, including circle-type periods (there are no colons in those letters.)

The "debut" letter of the 4th August, which was sent to the Chronicle, has a lovely colon in it, after "On the 4th of July". Does this help your case, Bill?
I wonder. It was printed somewhere?

And the handwriting on the car door is not exactly a perfect match for the letters.

It’s not bad though, is it.
Do you suppose the guy tried to stab Bryan and Cecilia to death, then walked up to the car with a cheat-sheet in his hand – a pre-prepared version of what he was planning to write on the door complete with that "f" and a good facsimile of "Vallejo" and a circle-type colon – then squatted by the car door in the failing light, cool as you like, reproducing it very accurately? Personally, I have my doubts.

What if the door of the car had been black, or brown, or dark green? I wonder what colour he would have chosen to write on it with, then?

And Zodiac always used a blue felt tip pen, but the message on the car door was in black felt tip ink.

Someone else said that on another board. So? I wonder why he usually wrote in blue on paper? Was it different in some way, writing letters to writing on a car door, perhaps? Are large blue felt pens (‘magic markers’) commonly available for purchase in the US? As common as black ones?

I see no reason at all to suggest that the guy who wrote the first couple of letters did not also write on the car door……

Mr Smithy:

Well, if he took the time to sew a Zodiac symbol on his executioner’s hood, then I suppose he had time to practice his limited sample of handwriting. Only the b and the f really stand out as distinctive. Is that what you mean? He had almost eight weeks. He also had 8 weeks to pack one of his blue pens in his Zodiac executioners kit.

Isnt it kind of weird that he didn’t tell Slaight "this is the Zodiac speaking. Bwhahahahaha!" He didn’t say anything about Zodiac to Bryan and Cecelia either. And he had over an hour to rehearse his phone call. He could have even called back. "Oh, I forgot. This is the the Zodiac speaking! Bwahahahah!"

He spent all those hours making a one time use Zodiac costume, all that time practicing his knot tying, all that time stalking couples in an entirely different county, all that time practicing his getaway [there is exactly one way out of Berryessa park that didn’t take him right to where Bill White and Dennis Land were on patrol] and all that time chatting with his victims, all that time with them tied up, and he forgot pack his blue pen and he forgot his name was Zodiac and he forgot his MO of shooting couples in their cars at night. And he forgot to write a letter about it. But everything he remembered to do was published on the front page of the newspaper weeks earlier.

You don’t think that’s a LITTLE weird? I know the guy who wrote the Yellow Book forgot about the Vallejo Times Herald, but there it is. I’m not suggesting that Arthur Leigh Allen murdered Hartnell and Shepard and successfully blamed Zodiac for it, I’m only suggesting that maybe someone did. Aren’t at least some of the Zodiac letters possible fakes, according to the experts? Why can’t the message on Hartnell’s car door be just as fake?

I guess I’m just not seeing the certainty, that’s all.

I agree with you BillR., but it’s not of popular opinion. I’ve stated my case and just don’t think there is enough there to say it proof-positive Zodiac. To me, there are more things that don’t add up than do.

Something else I noticed, but doesn’t mean anything either way—Zodiac seemed to keep his colons open…on the car door, they are filled in. There is a prop photo out there people have used–it’s on a checkered floor all shiny and clean and is NOT the original car door.

smithy–not sure where other articles are. Maybe Zam forgot to add it in when she compiled the articles.

Here’s a 1964 set of Sharpies: blue, red, brown, black! About halfway down the page.

http://www.sharpie.com/enus/Pages/AboutUs.aspx

I always thought Z used a felt tip PEN for the letters. Those would be totally useless for writing on car doors.

Would he have written a letter if Bryan had a black or dark blue car? I can’t find any silver markers from that era.

Edit: If he was really hardcore, he might have used something like this:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/capish/4011224909

Did he really have no Plan B…or did he know he’d be writing on a white car? Or was he like me, and had markers on him all the time, because he needed them for his job, and the decision to write on the car was purely impulsive? Oh well, time for bed.

Wait, this is interesting…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._P._Nissen_Co

They started producing markers for "industrial use" in 1923, specifically for writing on steel. According to police reports, the car door message was written with a 3/16 tip. I wonder if Nissen (or a similar company) made 3/16s at the time? This is what they sell now:
http://www.nissenmarkers.com/products/3 … l-markers/

Did LE ever analyze the ink? A Sharpie’s pretty meaningless, since you can buy them anywhere; a Nissen-type of industrial marker would, theoretically, be rather more telling.

Tahoe – what are you agreeing with, that the car door writing was faked by an attacker who didn’t write the first two letters?

Mr Robison (Robinson?) What I think is weird ain’t important, here. I’m not talking about who attacked Bryan and Cecelia at Berryessa and if it was the Evile Zodiace who really did exist. To hell with the hood and his embroidery skills (if he had any – if there was a symbol on the hood at all – and no, no-one said it was sewn there; at least not to start with.) And also to hell with the phone call. And the much skinnier blue pens he wrote letters with. So what?
I’m talking about the door. ‘Tis a door thread.

Why does the door impress me? Why do I think it was written by the guy who wrote (at least) the previous letters, too?
It’s not just the b and the f – I like the way that word "Vallejo" looks. I like the symbol. I like that "p" in Sept. I like all of it, in fact. There’s nothing on the door that I think doesn’t fit very well with the earlier correspondence.

Never mind the hood and the call and what boots he might have worn and did he drink beer and leave bottles – Is there stuff you don’t like about it? The door?

BTW if I was going to murder someone and blame it on someone else by faking their writing, my forgery would have been damn good. I’d have taken a pattern – something to trace over maybe. But I still don’t think I’d have done as well, blood on my clothes, hanging off the door handle, light failing a little, wondering when the cops might show …….. That’s a damn fine door.

Based on his letters, Zodiac read the Chronicle, Examiner, Register, and Times-Herald. He apparently did not read the News-Chronicle or Daily Republic. On August 4, the Times-Herald printed a life-size photocopy of their copy of the July 31 letter in its entirety, including the circled crosshair symbol. Other papers published photocopies of parts of the other letters, including circle-type periods (there are no colons in those letters.)

None of the papers Zodiac read had published the name, "Zodiac." The attacker did not mention the name "Zodiac" to Bryan and Cecelia, the caller did not mention the name "Zodiac" to Slaight, and of course, he did not write the name on Bryan’s car door. So, yes, it is definitely POSSIBLE that the assailant (and caller) were not the person writing letters to the newspapers. And the handwriting on the car door is not exactly a perfect match for the letters. And Zodiac always used a blue felt tip pen, but the message on the car door was in black felt tip ink.

Is it POSSIBLE that "Zodiac" deliberately left open the possibility that he could later blame a copycat for Berryessa? Sure is.

Is it POSSIBLE that the Berryessa attacker was a copycat? Sure is. There have been lots of Zodiac copycats.

This is the only time, if it was the Zodiac, that he had written immediately after a crime. He had just brutally stabbed two people and no doubt the adrenaline was coursing through his veins. He was also stooping or crouching down in an awkward position for writing. If you write at a table, your body is 90 degrees to the paper roughly. Here his body is parallel to the car door, combined with his heightened state it is no wonder the writing is not exactly the same.

Okay. It MIGHT have been the same person who wrote the letters, and then again, it might NOT have been. Right? Is that the consensus answer? We all agree there are possible excuses for Zodiac not getting his own act right, but on the other hand, a copycat COULD have simply copied what he saw in the papers. Right? Did I miss something?

Unless I missed something, the next question is, if the known footprints lead from the VW down to the crime scene and back, then just where did Zodiac park his car? According to Deputy Snooks report, the footprints lead straight from the car door to the steps over the fence, and back.

So, where did he park? It’s about 30 minutes from the crime scene to the phone booth in Napa. It took Zodiac 70 minutes give or take to place the call. Where was he for 40 minutes? Taking a shower? Did he live in Napa? Did he park 20 or 30 minutes by foot away from the crime scene? That would be about where the root beer stand is, right? He had to walk from the car door back to his own car. Where was it? It would make sense for him to use the dirt road between the highway and the beach. But there are no footprints mentioned being found along that dirt road, except going across the road from the crime scene to the car door and back.

Where did he go AFTER the car door?

smithy—I have my doubts it was Zodiac who committed the attacks at LB, so I have my doubts it was him who wrote on the car door. I don’t think it was the same guy who wrote the previous letters. Maybe the HC card a year later, but I also think that was not a Zodiac missive.

BillR.–It is mentioned there was a print found about halfway from the car to the attack site near the dirt road. I have to wonder the prints might have gone in another direction….like to the dentist and his son who saw a man in the same garb walking halfway between the road and the lake.