There’s always a pattern, isn’t there?

Even in this case. Is that pattern though just one of random choices? Isn’t that the simplest source and purpose – disguise through noise. Kill couples, wear a disguise, doesn’t wear a disguise, kills a person on his own. Even this isn’t outside of the pattern as he stated in his first threat that he would kill couples or lone people.

Given this I don’t think that there’s anything specific about the LB costume that has to mean anything. It was just another mix. A costume, a gun, a knife, clothesline. It’s easy to assume that there was a purpose here but if we look at the prior patterns then this is just a variation – as opposed to some huge, clew giving hint to reasons for departure to prior attacks.

So I guess that what I’m asking is – why should we pick something as significant because it appears different when it appears different in the midst of an approach that seems based on different? Or…is it different? or is it based on variation.

If I kill with a rottweiler, then kill again with a poodle – the pattern is dogs.

So he wears a disguise at LB but, according to Z he also was disguised at PH. So the pattern could be disguises. He said he would not say what his disguise consisted of when he killed but since we know he wore different disguises it suggests to me that the use of the singular ‘disguise’ implies that it was a variable thing applied at the time. So in a weird way he couldn’t say what it consisted of because it changed or it might be employed on more than one occasion. Point is that it is a disposable and adaptive tool.

So with that in mind, is the LB disguise that important, or just one more whimsical choice in an MO based on such choices.

Trav, I meant LB of course. I hate the diminutives. I should have just written "Berryessa".

Re: Patterns within no patterns (I refuse to believe you can kill with a Poodle, Grasshopper) – well, since the noise comes from the letters, how about we ignore the noise? The letters do a magnificent job…. (responding to newspaper reports and to the red-faced Lee with "discise" excuses and "glue on the fingertips" (Dear God!) and a perceived response to the accusations of "latent homesxuality" and so on)…. of producing that noise.
Quiet!

There doesn’t HAVE to be a pattern, but there has to be some kind of progression, or some kind of related MO. That’s how crimes are linked now, and that’s how resource is assigned. The letters don’t give us that, only looking at the crime scenes do – and I’m hard-pushed to come up with connections, me, because at its simplest it goes something like, "and then he went from shooting couples up close at night time to stabbing them in broad daylight while wearing a ritual hood".
That’s just a little bit odd.

In the letters, the closest thing to a Berryessa mention might be incidental throw-away "I am the same man who did in the people in the north bay area".
Other than that, nada. Damnit.
Also a little bit odd.

Trav wrote:-

So I guess that what I’m asking is – why should we pick something as significant because it appears different when it appears different in the midst of an approach that seems based on different? Or…is it different? or is it based on variation.

Smithy wrote:-

There doesn’t HAVE to be a pattern, but there has to be some kind of progression, or some kind of related MO.

I’ll get back to "pattern" in a minute and what I meant…..all just opinion of course. I’m with Smithy here because I believe the more important definition to begin with is "progression". For me the simplest explanation relies on a progression. While not married to it ,I’m most inclined to believe Z first killed at LHR
( a couple, for reasons I do not know) because he was familiar with it. He passed on a regular basis, he seen couples there on a regular basis, he lived and/or worked in the area. Vallejo/Benicia. I don’t know whether he killed or not before (CJB best argument), however regardless, I believe this was his first murder as Z /Z plan. I have two reasons why we didn’t hear from him after LHR…. either he was close enough to be considered a suspect and/or in the greater plan, he wanted a second set before he announced himself. Second murders BRS, same methodology…he was familiar with the area. Once he announced himself and police knew what they were dealing with, Vallejo became a no go area for him for obvious reasons. He moved further afield to LB, again because he was familiar with it. I wouldn’t disagree with anything already opined upon with regard to the costume, I expect he expected to be recognised and he needed something to disguise himself in daylight. The only pattern that is broken at this stage, is the move from night time to Daytime, we are still dealing with couples in remote areas and the switch to knife, is understandable in the circumstances. Stine still fits part of the pattern in that he can isolate a vunerable target. But now it’s a single person as opposed to a couple. However when I spoke of "pattern", I was referring to it in the context of his behaviour, in that he reacted to stories and claims in the media. When the second male survived, it was questioned and we begin to see the psychoanalysis. I think he reacted to that, went and proved he could kill a male and done so clinically and brutally and in the heart of San francisco. When he learned of young witnesses, he threatened to first shoot them as they exited a bus and then took it further to using explosives. When Avery took him to task, he followed that up.
For me at least, that is the progression. Pattern is relative. My overall point, if he reacted in the manner I think he did, perhaps there were past specific incidents that made him target couples and the police to begin with. All just thoughts!!!

Trav wrote:-

So I guess that what I’m asking is – why should we pick something as significant because it appears different when it appears different in the midst of an approach that seems based on different? Or…is it different? or is it based on variation.

Smithy wrote:-

There doesn’t HAVE to be a pattern, but there has to be some kind of progression, or some kind of related MO.

I’ll get back to "pattern" in a minute and what I meant…..all just opinion of course. I’m with Smithy here because I believe the more important definition to begin with is "progression". For me the simplest explanation relies on a progression. While not married to it ,I’m most inclined to believe Z first killed at LHR
( a couple, for reasons I do not know) because he was familiar with it. He passed on a regular basis, he seen couples there on a regular basis, he lived and/or worked in the area. Vallejo/Benicia. I don’t know whether he killed or not before (CJB best argument), however regardless, I believe this was his first murder as Z /Z plan. I have two reasons why we didn’t hear from him after LHR…. either he was close enough to be considered a suspect and/or in the greater plan, he wanted a second set before he announced himself. Second murders BRS, same methodology…he was familiar with the area. Once he announced himself and police knew what they were dealing with, Vallejo became a no go area for him for obvious reasons. He moved further afield to LB, again because he was familiar with it. I wouldn’t disagree with anything already opined upon with regard to the costume, I expect he expected to be recognised and he needed something to disguise himself in daylight. The only pattern that is broken at this stage, is the move from night time to Daytime, we are still dealing with couples in remote areas and the switch to knife, is understandable in the circumstances. Stine still fits part of the pattern in that he can isolate a vunerable target. But now it’s a single person as opposed to a couple. However when I spoke of "pattern", I was referring to it in the context of his behaviour, in that he reacted to stories and claims in the media. When the second male survived, it was questioned and we begin to see the psychoanalysis. I think he reacted to that, went and proved he could kill a male and done so clinically and brutally and in the heart of San francisco. When he learned of young witnesses, he threatened to first shoot them as they exited a bus and then took it further to using explosives. When Avery took him to task, he followed that up.
For me at least, that is the progression. Pattern is relative. My overall point, if he reacted in the manner I think he did, perhaps there were past specific incidents that made him target couples and the police to begin with. All just thoughts!!!

I also think Z waited so long to strike again and announce his LHR murders because he was likely talked to by police after the LHR attacks.(See James Owen thread)

But…WAS he progressing?

LHR….successful…and with a .22. Two dead
BRS, same scenerio…a gun…in and out, no communication. A 9mm. One lives.
LB…a knife too this time, a gun (just in case), daytime, ties them up, has discussion. One lives.
SF…back to nighttime, a gun….and a cabbie? Is that supposed to be a big deal? (No disrespect to Paul Stine), but…..nothing shocking about that.

Sounds like Zodiac needed an easy sure thing.

He wasn’t concerned about being seen at Lake Berryessa (imo) or he wouldn’t have gone to SF so soon.

I
Not that I’m correct but when I spoke of progression, it was in the context of the simplest explanation of how and why he moved from one murder to the next.

I agree he needed a easy sure thing.(Stine)

As to your last point, there is an argument that he was actually seen at LB/ or thought he might have been. The victims reporting they could see hair inside/as low as the eye slits, whereas PH, with a crew cut. Did he change hair style because he might have been seen acting suspiciously when looking for victims at LB?

As to your last point, there is an argument that he was actually seen at LB/ or thought he might have been. The victims reporting they could see hair inside/as low as the eye slits, whereas PH, with a crew cut. Did he change hair style because he might have been seen acting suspiciously when looking for victims at LB?

The thing with LB (for me) is that this person who attacked Bryan and Cecelia WAS there that day WITHOUT a hood on. We know he wasn’t driving (or walking) around in costume.

So…

If anything, I would say LB was most likely not the actual hair of the Zodiac killer.

BRS–curly, light-brown almost blond
LB–dark brown/black, parted and combed
SF–light colored hair, possibly graying in rear, crew-cut

Amen.

One possibility is that someone was filming the LB attack. This would explain why it took place before dark, why Z spent unnecessary time talking to Ceci and Bryan, and the costume. But most especially the cross-hair symbol on the costume.

"Team Zodiac" is not a popular theory, but that symbol on the costume is the single most baffling thing about the Zodiac crimes, in my opinion, and that’s one explanation (filming) that at least kind of makes sense to me. Although, still, it doesn’t seem very likely.

I wish we knew the details of where Bryan, Ceci, and Z were standing, in relation to each other and in relation to wherever a cameraman could have been standing.

I think the Symbol on his chest was simply worn because of his ego. He wanted to see if the victims would recognise it.

Another thing about LB I have always thought very very unlikely is the idea that Zodiac parked his vehicle behind that of Bryan’s. We know Zodiac walked down the embankment, behind a tree, came towards the couple and had Cecelia tie up Bryan, then he tied Cecelia, re-tied Bryan, then stabbed them, before walking back up to the road. That would mean that Zodiac would have had to have left his car in full view of any and all passing vehicles on a public road to be seen by all. This attack comes after the BRS incident in which Zodiac acknowledges that his car was seen and a description given as he writes: The man who told the police that my car was brown was a negro about 40-45 rather shabbly dressed. I was at this phone booth haveing some fun with the Vallejo cops when he was walking by. I highly doubt he’d have been there with his own car parked on the road. As Bryan got to the road after the incident, a ranger pulled up almost straight away which suggests the road was fairly well used.

The man who told the police that my car was brown was a negro about 40-45 rather shabbly dressed. I was at this phone booth haveing some fun with the Vallejo cops when he was walking by.

I doubt the truth of that statement. I wouldn’t tell the cops the colour of my car, and that gentleman’s never been found, despite an appeal for him to come forward (I believe).

As Bryan got to the road after the incident, a ranger pulled up almost straight away which suggests the road was fairly well used.

The ranger found him on that track having been summoned to the scene by radio – Bryan hadn’t made it as far as the public road.

The man who told the police that my car was brown was a negro about 40-45 rather shabbly dressed. I was at this phone booth haveing some fun with the Vallejo cops when he was walking by.

I doubt the truth of that statement. I wouldn’t tell the cops the colour of my car, and that gentleman’s never been found, despite an appeal for him to come forward (I believe).

As Bryan got to the road after the incident, a ranger pulled up almost straight away which suggests the road was fairly well used.

The ranger found him on that track having been summoned to the scene by radio – Bryan hadn’t made it as far as the public road.

I don’t doubt the truth of the statement because Zodiac seems to have learned from his mistakes. In this phone call he doesn’t hang up but simply lets the phone dangle. If appeals never found the man, maybe he was a homeless person. Zodiac said he was ‘rather shabbly dressed’. (Again, I don’t believe it just cause Zodiac says it, but it would make sense as to why appeals never found him)

Ok fair point, the ranger had been called and Bryan hadn’t made it back to the public road. That make’s no difference at all to the point I was making and that was, I highly doubt Zodiac would have parked his car behind Bryans on a public road for all to see.

….I highly doubt Zodiac would have parked his car behind Bryans on a public road for all to see.

I couldn’t agree more.

I do believe their attacker toook the footpath north, hence seeing the doc and his son. The were prints found near this path…we just don’t know if they continued on.

There are no mentions of prints leading to a car parked 20 feet to the rear of Bryan’s. While I think he may have pulled in for a look-see, I don’t think his car remained while he did his deed. What if someone else HAD pulled in while he was attacking them and saw the creepy guy in the hood? Wouldn’t matter if it was the guy’s car or his grandma’s or borrowed from an auto-shop, ya know? They’d have him.

I highly doubt Zodiac would have parked his car behind Bryans on a public road for all to see.

THAT point I should have said I wouldn’t contest, because there were no footprints remarked upon in the reports, or mentioned by the highly reputable Hal Snook.
BUT if he had a car – and we can presume he did – probably – then, where DID he park it? How far away? Back where the girls saw that guy hanging around earlier on? That far away?
I’m thinking he would have wanted transport close by……
The crime scene couldn’t be seen from where the Ghia was parked, after all…..

Hmmm. Unless it was a bright red ice-cream wagon he was driving, why would he not park it near the scene?
Because he was worried someone was driving that road who regularly memorised cars?
I dunno.
The girls saw a creepy guys car earlier on and couldn’t say for shure what the model was, didn’t know the plates, etc. etc. Hmmm. People.
I memorise a lot of cars, just in case….

I highly doubt Zodiac would have parked his car behind Bryans on a public road for all to see.

THAT point I should have said I wouldn’t contest, because there were no footprints remarked upon in the reports, or mentioned by the highly reputable Hal Snook.
BUT if he had a car – and we can presume he did – probably – then, where DID he park it? How far away? Back where the girls saw that guy hanging around earlier on? That far away?
I’m thinking he would have wanted transport close by……
The crime scene couldn’t be seen from where the Ghia was parked, after all…..

Hmmm. Unless it was a bright red ice-cream wagon he was driving, why would he not park it near the scene?
Because he was worried someone was driving that road who regularly memorised cars?
I dunno.
The girls saw a creepy guys car earlier on and couldn’t say for shure what the model was, didn’t know the plates, etc. etc. Hmmm. People.
I memorise a lot of cars, just in case….