Tom do you think that Riverside believe that the hair in Cheri Jo’s hand belonged to an accomplice of BB?
Probably, anything to keep the focus on Barnett at all cost.
So weird.
Probably, anything to keep the focus on Barnett at all cost.
Yeah I don’t get it. I won’t pretend that cops don’t get tunnel vision just like the rest of us, but every single claim about BB that wasn’t directly related to the night of CJB’s murder was disputed by him in that email exchange. I feel like the disagreement should be easily mediated by mutual acquaintances to both parties (BB and CJB) Surely, given their proximity, her parents would know if she was involved with a guy, especially if she had the kind of relationship where her dad waited for her to get home at night and, I guess, required her to leave a note when she left the house. That’s not an adult child that’s out living her own life. That’s someone’s daughter who has rules she is required to live by.
Moreover, I’m baffled by the story your confidential contact gave you in 1999. So there was a guy who was in jail in 1968 who told the police that BB bragged about killing CJB. Was this person like an RCC student or what? Under what circumstances and what time would BB have bragged to this person?
RPD has got to have some kind of good reason to keep BB in their sites and if what they’ve got is what you’ve got, Tom, it sounds like they handed the mic to a class A bullsh***er. I’m not impressed by polygraph results and, by the way, neither is the law. Utterly bizarre. If the bulk of the evidence against BB came from this jailbird, it doesn’t take a genius to see the possibility of a guy looking for a plea deal or something. They’ve got to have more than that.
[EDIT] Yeah but I don’t know. I hope it doesn’t sound like I’m criticizing the research, Tom, because that’s not what I’m saying. I just don’t know why RPD would insist on mentioning him in the PR if this is the totality of their evidence; allegations from an inmate that would directly implicate BB, claims about BB’s relationship with CJB that he has disputed (but he’s the suspect so why take his word for it) but then it’s unclear whether these claims were substantiated from other sources, and then placing these otherwise non-probative inferences in proximity to witness reports from the night of.
It’s not that the narrative doesn’t work, it’s just that the quality of the allegations is limited by the lack of specific knowledge we have with regards to their full investigation (although I’m a novice on CJB and would be happy to see the crosspollination of evidence between Riverside and Zodiac go away if they aren’t related crimes, which I don’t think they are). In a way, it’s hard not to feel like RPD is getting a laugh out of the ambiguity of their reporting, but maybe that’s just cynical.
Nowhere in the article it is said the hoaxer could be linked by forensics to the Bates Die letters he claims he wrote.
I don’t think they found DNA under the stamps of those letters because those envelopes were sprayed with ninhydrin to look for fingerprints and that destroys DNA. So not a possible DNA match.
They found a fingerprint on the envelop sent to her father. But finding it from the outside it could be anyone’s from that era. If that would have been a match with the hoaxer’s fingerprint I would believed the story but unfortunately they never made that match else would have told us.
So what’s the info we got out of this news?
They identified someone claiming to be the hoaxer of the Bates Die Letters.
They checked his DNA with DNA from the hairs found at the CJB crimescene… no match.
Conclusion: The Bates Die letters were a hoax and Zodiac wasn’t involved.
… Stop…. Wait… What?
No forensic evidence to proof the hoaxer did as he tells them and they just believe him?
It looks to me they were glad someone confessed so the whole “Zodiac did it” linking would be gone in seconds.
And it worked perfectly. I saw Z researchers on forums going from “Z in the letters and Zodiac claiming about Riverside so possibly Zodiac” to “oh, Zodiac lied about it, not his letters so most likely no connection”
Guys, they tell us those letters were a hoax based upon one guy saying to them he wrote those letters? Wow!
It changes nothing… The letters could still be from her killer (I think 70% chance) or even from Zodiac (I don’t really know) if this hoaxer is a liar.
What will happen next… Another guy sents a letter claiming he wrote the “confession letter”? , yet another guy will write them that back then he was a mental instable teenager and just etched a morbid poem in a desk? Anyone can say anything if it can’t be proven by forensics. Does it make it the truth.
Or does it fits in the truth that RPD wants to see cause Barnett did it (and please keep Zodiac outside our investigations)?
I was posting over on Tom’s forum and I was starting to feel like there was something wrong with this situation. One of the members said that you had developed some evidence in regards to “indentations” on the Bates Had to Die letters. Is this true? How credible were the indentations?
One can only assume RPD did the right thing. But if we imagine a vacuum in which only the 2016 confession letter and the 1967 letters exist, with no other evidence, then it would seem at face value as if the 2016 letter has better baseline odds of being a hoax.
It’s important to remember the evidence for the Bates connection wasn’t developed by people on the internet as RPD so patronizingly suggested, but by the actual detectives who worked the original case. The Bates connection featured some of the most credible, sensible, easy-to-understand evidence in the entire case.
I can’t see this being anything but good news. In my mind it means two things:
1. Zodiac was not responsible for the Bates murder, and we can eliminate that from consideration in this case. All of those seeming connections and coincidences have no bearing now. We can take a fresh look now.
2. Zodiac was clearly lying about his involvement in the Bates case in the 1971 LA Times letter. This should raise serious questions about his honestly regarding Kathleen Johns and others.
This is a very big, very good development that hopefully leads to several other breaks.
I agree that this would appear to be the only reasonable conclusion. What are the odds of the confession letter still being real? Yet, I’ve reminded myself of the evidence related to the Bates case, and it’s not very easily dismissed at all. In fact, it’s fair to say it’s some of the most sensible, feet-on-the-ground evidence in the whole case. Nothing fancy, or fanciful about it. It doesn’t go away so easily.
The case was similar and two of the letters were signed with a “Z”. We’ve discussed some pretty silly theories over the years, but this wasn’t one of them. It’s simple, clear evidence that an idiot can follow. No, I think the Bates stuff had real merit and the people who argue with that are the real conspiracy theorists and contrarians. It was only ever very likely, I mean it’s an inductive argument, I understand the limitations. But this wasn’t some crackpot theory cooked up on the internet, it had real merit.
Hi @replaceablehead,
On a hd scan of one of the Bates die letters I saw something that looked like indented writing. I have worked at a forensic lab in Rijswijk doing DNA samples but saw other stuff as well working in a team.
Am I sure? Well in that scan I saw they probably sprayed Ninhydrin on it which destroys indentings but… They didn’t do a good job at it leaving some parts dry. And in those parts I saw indentings.
Am I sure, no. It’s a scan and it was digitized and put on a website etc. Who knows its just pixels and the human mind thinking it sees something….
Thank you for your reply…
Hi @replaceablehead,
On a hd scan of one of the Bates die letters I saw something that looked like indented writing. I have worked at a forensic lab in Rijswijk doing DNA samples but saw other stuff as well working in a team.
Am I sure? Well in that scan I saw they probably sprayed Ninhydrin on it which destroys indentings but… They didn’t do a good job at it leaving some parts dry. And in those parts I saw indentings.
Am I sure, no. It’s a scan and it was digitized and put on a website etc. Who knows its just pixels and the human mind thinking it sees something….
Thank you for your reply…
That’s a sensible appraisal. To be honest I think I saw something about the indentations a few years back and dismissed it as fanciful nonsense. It’s only now that RPD are making such incredible claims that I’m going back over things.
The Bates connection was built on a totality of the evidence. If you remove one piece of evidence the whole thing falls apart, but this works both ways. If the Bates Had to Die letters aren’t real, then the Confession letter probably isn’t real either, but then the RPD narrative has a burden of proof to answer the evidence found in the Confession.
This situation is nothing like the Yorkshire Ripper hoax, it’s not like John Humbles tapes had external supportive evidence, they were entirely self-contained. It’s also not as if John Humble lived in the same town as Peter Sutcliffe, but that’s exactly the kind of scenario we have to entertain in order to believe that the Confession letter writer is still Zodiac, and yet somehow the Bates Had to Die letter writer wasn’t. And imagine if John Humble had signed his letters as “P.S”, somehow guessing the initials of the real killer. No, this is quite different, we have multiple unrelated lines of evidence linking Zodiac to Bates.
And now we are to believe that this “troubled teenager” later took up writing actual fake Zodiac letters too. So how long was he a “troubled teen” for? Seems like he made quite a career out of hoax letter writing, hardly the sort of person who would later remorsefully confess.
As a sane, reasonable adult, I have to assume RPD found solid evidence, but the credibility and merit of their narrative relies solely – solely – on the assumption that they found hard evidence as yet undisclosed. Without that, their claims are unlikely in the extreme.
I’ve never seen a hoax that didn’t unravel when discovered. The pieces normally fall into place, suddenly all the other evidence should make sense. But in this case, we are presented with an even more unlikely scenario of hoaxer seeming to almost presage and work in tandem with the Zodiac. If this was a hoax, it’s an absolutely fascinating one and very unusual.
I’m now leaning toward “Bates hoaxer also sent Zodiac letters” being a misinterpretation.
Taken in isolation, it simply says they developed information about certain Zodiac letters, that they now believe to be forgeries, and this played a role in their decision to absolve themselves of the Zodiac connection. However, the repeated use of “the author” throughout the article allows it to be read both ways.
They know a group of communications signed Zodiac when the mailings had stopped were done by this guy because he already told them why he did it. To keep the Zodiac case alive. Meaning it is highly unlikely to be official Zodiac communications.
It’s a process of elimination. Signed Zodiac, group of letters, late stages.
Atlanta Zodiac communications meet the criteria.
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I have always been a Cheri Jo Bates was an early Zodiac attack believer. This new revelation, thank you Tom, has most certainly put a damper on things. I am sadly though not willing to give up on Cheri being a victim of the Zodiac just yet. We are talking three handwritten letters not being the killers. This still leaves the typed confession and the details of her murder to be considered. I think perhaps, now that Rose colored glasses have come off, we should re-evaluate the remaining evidence to see how much actually stacks up with the Zodiac.
“It’s alright boys, we received a second confession letter confessing that the first confession letter was a hoax.” You wouldn’t have to go far to find someone willing to confess to being a Zodiac hoaxer. We still don’t have any answers about the other links.
It’s fact that on at least one occasion Zodiac disavowed a hoaxer, in the Z340 he points out that it wasn’t him on the Jim Dunbar show. But in the Bates case, Zodiac gives an approving nod to this teenage hoaxer. A teenage hoaxer who just happened to presage the initial of the Zodiac. I’m going to read back over all the Bates evidence, I feel like there is a smoking gun of strong contradiction in there somewhere.
I think it’s important we reconsider why we thought the Bates case was connected to begin with:
1. Similarity between the Bates case and the Kathleen Johns. Both cases involved disabling a car as a ruse to lure the victim. I have to admit that the Kathleen Johns incident is controversial and the Bates case has often been used as an argument to support the authenticity of the Johns case. It’s also fair to point out that a ruse involving a vehicle is not an entirely novel means of luring a victim, other serial killers did it, and in all, it would seem to present itself as an obvious means to lay a trap. Yet I think it has to count for something, Zodiac claimed both and Kathleen’s car was torched, an act more consistent with the behavior of a psychopath, rather than a mere prankster, or common criminal. It’s weak, but it must be considered as very very slight evidence in support of the Bates connection.
2. The circles instead of dots. Say what you will of Sherwood Morril and handwriting (I say handwriting is weak sauce indeed), but it’s hard to look past the circles instead of dots on The Confession and the Exorcist letter. Of course, this could point to the Exorcist letter being one of the hoax letters RPD refers to.
3. The Exorcist letter and the desktop poem. I’ve always been cautious about that desktop. I mean graffiti on desks is hardly uncommon, and I’m not given to thinking kids have changed quite so very much. However, it must be said that the desktop poem was found near a crime scene and it has to be said that the Exorcist letter has some similarities. They both have a little poem possibly about suicide, or murder. Again, and I am loathed to use handwriting, but you’ve got those big ‘o candy cane “f”s. Put all this with the above circles instead of dots and it starts to look like there are a few similarities to the writings in Riverside and the Exorcist letter.
4. “squirm”, “twitch”, “scream”. Not so terribly great a coincidence, but also more than a little striking.
5. “shall”. Again, so what? But then coupled with the above, the language is similar.
6. “That will not stop the game” – This part of the Confession letter is similar to the thoughts found in the Z408. In the interest of balance, I must acknowledge that references to having a good time killing are common in both real and hoax letters. The Yorkshire Ripper hoaxer made some reference along the lines of having a blast, or a ball, or a good time, or some such. It’s a common sentiment. Still, “game” specifically? Not quite so common.
Most of those are just straight out of Zodiac Revisited by Michael Cole. It’s very late here and I’m not even scratching the surface. But there are more than a few Zynchroncities. RPD would love this to be some fantasy the internet pulled out of it’s arse, but the truth is it’s a connection made by the original investigators and not so easily debunked.
The Zodiac does seem to acknowledge the Bates case as his. On the surface the Zodiac seems to claim Johns as his as well. I doubt he can be attached to the Johns case though and think the Zodiac was merely being a smartass. The Zodiac, as we know him, NEVER disabled a car to reach his victims. That’s a point that should be remembered. The disabling of a car would seem to point to a separate killer. I wouldnt exclude it as an early m.o. but that would eliminate Johns later given possible evolution of Z crimes.
The confession letter was typed and didn’t include circles for dots. The additional letters that RPD speaks of were apparently sent to the police. So I doubt it’s the exorcist letter and believe law enforcement may have thought the additional letters as hoaxes right out of the envelope because of that fact. Or, shall I say, when the Zodiac started showing a pattern of behavior.
It’s fact that on at least one occasion Zodiac disavowed a hoaxer, in the Z340 he points out that it wasn’t him on the Jim Dunbar show. But in the Bates case, Zodiac gives an approving nod to this teenage hoaxer. A teenage hoaxer who just happened to presage the initial of the Zodiac. I’m going to read back over all the Bates evidence, I feel like there is a smoking gun of strong contradiction in there somewhere.
Zodiac also denied he had anything to do with blowing up a police station in San Francisco.
Then in the next mailings he says he would kill a cop and then alludes to shooting one in another.
Why isn’t he enjoying the destruction of a police station? Surely he should be doing cartwheels.
I think he has let something slip here. He has shown sympathy for an entire Police Station but he hates homicide detectives.
That is why he was trying to correct himself in later mailings.
Guess someone didn’t make detective.
www.zodiachalloweencard.com has a 400 paged book for free containing the super solution with an overarching explanation of the cards and more.
It’s fact that on at least one occasion Zodiac disavowed a hoaxer, in the Z340 he points out that it wasn’t him on the Jim Dunbar show. But in the Bates case, Zodiac gives an approving nod to this teenage hoaxer. A teenage hoaxer who just happened to presage the initial of the Zodiac. I’m going to read back over all the Bates evidence, I feel like there is a smoking gun of strong contradiction in there somewhere.
Zodiac also denied he had anything to do with blowing up a police station in San Francisco.
Then in the next mailings he says he would kill a cop and then alludes to shooting one in another.
Why isn’t he enjoying the destruction of a police station? Surely he should be doing cartwheels.
I think he has let something slip here. He has shown sympathy for an entire Police Station but he hates homicide detectives.
That is why he was trying to correct himself in later mailings.
Guess someone didn’t make detective.
Zodiac was a “fair” dude. Odd really. He didn’t seem to enjoy stealing credit for someone else’s work.
