Last year,I was fortunate to interview Phil Sins. Phil Sins was the first person to connect the Bates case to Zodiac. He initially went to Riverside PD with his suspicions, but was rebuffed. He then decided to contact SF Chronicle Reporter,Paul Avery after he read one of Avery’s Zodiac articles. The connection was published in the press, Sherwood Morrill confirmed the Bates case writing was that of Zodiac’s,and the rest is history.
HERE IS THE RESULT OF MY TALKING WITH MR. SINS:
One thing I have to mention is that he is up there in age around 80 years old, and I know my Grandfather who is 83 is definitely not as sharp as he used to be,and thats not to make Mr Sins sound like he does not have all his faculties, etc. In addition, he is dealing with some health issues within his Family, so I was happy to talk with him for the 20-30 minutes that we got on the phone,as he has alot on his mind.
Again this is all based on his recollection from 40+ years ago.
*He states, as far as he can remember, that he did NOT write a letter to Paul Avery, that he actually called him on the phone.
*He states that as far as he can remember, he initially asked Avery to contact Riverside Police, and that he only got involved directly with RPD, AFTER he made contact with Avery.
*He states that Avery came down to Riverside,and that they went to the police station in Riverside, where the letters & desktop were discussed or shown, but that he himself did NOT get to see them.
*He states that Captain Cross treated him like a suspect, and that Riverside PD asked for a sample of Mr Sins’ hair, and he complied and gave it to them. He was not worried since he knew he didnt kill her, but they never got back to him regarding his hair sample after he gave it.
*He states that although he gave a hair sample, he never gave a writing sample
*He states that he talked to Avery several times by phone, and went up to SF a few times and met with him. On one of these trips up there with his Family in tow, he says he witnessed a car following a woman closely. The details seemed sketchy in his mind, but he stated that the driver wound up on foot chasing the woman, and that he himself chased after the attacker, but could not catch him. I asked him if he called police, and he said he was trying to find a phone closeby,but was unable to. He described the guy as stocky, muscular, and pretty tall maybe around 6ft…with no glasses.
* As has been reported, he DID SAY that he contacted Vallejo PD at some point as well.
*He states that he did not even know his name was out there on the net in relation to the Zodiac case,and that he has never been contacted before about his involvement. He says that he hopes he can help, and was glad to do so,but hopes I can spread the word for him so that he is not contacted by others.
*He states that he never receievd any weird letters or phone calls over the years.
I read over the phone the details of the letter that he supposedly wrote to Avery seen here: http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/seri … ect_7.html
He states he really doesnt remember writing that, and that it does not sound familiar.(Again he is 80 years old, so maybe he cant rememebr clearly)
It’s pretty obvious that Mr Sins,IS REAL,and that he did contact Avery whether it was by letter or phone really doesnt matter. Some of the facts he seemed to be mixed up on but remembered a few things overall. He remembered that Cheri had a Boyfriend that had moved to SF area. He remembered that Toschi was accused of writing a fake Z letter. Also, I think much of what he remembers, he got out of newspapers,one such item was how Zodiac,as described in a newspaper,was laughing uncontrollaby as he stabbed Cecelia.
He stated that he linked the two cases just by the overall similarity in the taunting letters. It also got his attention that Bates was killed on Halloween Eve and Z sent a Halloween card. He told Avery to look into it, and get a writing expert as there were writing samples in Riverside. He says he has monitored the case since making the connection. He himself never had any suspects nor did he have any theories in particular.
There are no smoking gun clues here,but a few surprising things. At least we know that he is a real person, and that some of what was reported has some basis in reality. I thanked him and he told me that if he could think of anything else important, he would call me. It was very nice & helpful of him to take the time to talk with me despite having things going on in his own life right now. It’s always cool to hear from the real people that we have talked about all these years!
There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer
http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS
Long before Cheri Jo Bates, and Riverside was publicly connected, the Riverside PD had reached out to the Police investigating the Z crimes. Here is a Memo that was the result of Mr Sins urging Riverside PD to investigate the possible connection
There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer
http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS
Interesting….that makes me really wonder if she was specifically followed and targeted, though I am sure those on the Z case for a long time have already said this. It makes me also wonder if the other Z murders were specifically followed and targeted. If not, and this is considered a definite Z case, wouldn’t that imply a very distinct personal connection on this case? As in CJB knew Z pretty well, or family friends or something of the sort? I mean, she left a note at her house, went to check out specific books and left. The chances a killer happened to be where she parked her car, picked her and then disabled and waited seems pretty slim. Seems to me she was targeted prior to going to the library and was watched/followed for some time. Much more personal.
I am not sure exactly which Z crime would seem the most like the Bates crime which would cause RPD to reach out to Z investigators,maybe the Berryessa attack? But besides stabbing, I don’t see their car being disabled. It was a couple, not a lone female. Possibly there was some stalking too?
I still think that the only reason that RPD reached out to Zodiac investigators, is due to the urgency of Phil Sins
There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer
http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS
Good job morf
Thanks Morf,
Great job interviewing! Love when everyone, even somewhat involved is interviewed!
Zam*
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If Zodiac ever joined a Z forum, I’m sure he would have been banned for not following forum rules. Zam’s/Quote
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MODERATOR
What stands out to me in the letter is the two vacant houses. That strongly implies that Z knew the area. Otherwise he would be taking a huge risk.
I am not sure exactly which Z crime would seem the most like the Bates crime which would cause RPD to reach out to Z investigators,maybe the Berryessa attack? But besides stabbing, I don’t see their car being disabled. It was a couple, not a lone female. Possibly there was some stalking too?
I still think that the only reason that RPD reached out to Zodiac investigators, is due to the urgency of Phil Sins
Morf, The day of the Lake B stabbings Hartnell did have a car problem, I have always wondered if his car had been tampered with while they were at the rummage sale, or after he went back to his dorm to drop off the TV he bought at the rummage sale ?
Perhaps "someone" offered him some help with his car or spoke to him at the rummage sale and that was why the killers voice sounded familiar to Hartnell ? I wonder if they were followed from St Helena to Lake B ?
It would have been a long walk for Zodiac to take without knowing before hand, that the car parked on Knoxville rd belonged to a young couple. I think he knew because he saw them earlier that day.
It is too bad that Hartnell won’t answer any questions, unless there is a TV crew filming him. I have tried more than once to get some answers from him, he never replied. One question being did Cecilia have on a wrist watch , a red plastic heart neckless with her name in white on the front of it, or a gold cross earring that was taken by her killer ? ( Two of the items were left in my car when the costume was put there )
I am not sure exactly which Z crime would seem the most like the Bates crime which would cause RPD to reach out to Z investigators,maybe the Berryessa attack? But besides stabbing, I don’t see their car being disabled. It was a couple, not a lone female. Possibly there was some stalking too?
I still think that the only reason that RPD reached out to Zodiac investigators, is due to the urgency of Phil Sins
Morf, The day of the Lake B stabbings Hartnell did have a car problem, I have always wondered if his car had been tampered with while they were at the rummage sale, or after he went back to his dorm to drop off the TV he bought at the rummage sale ?
Perhaps "someone" offered him some help with his car or spoke to him at the rummage sale and that was why the killers voice sounded familiar to Hartnell ? I wonder if they were followed from St Helena to Lake B ?
It would have been a long walk for Zodiac to take without knowing before hand, that the car parked on Knoxville rd belonged to a young couple. I think he knew because he saw them earlier that day.
It is too bad that Hartnell won’t answer any questions, unless there is a TV crew filming him. I have tried more than once to get some answers from him, he never replied. One question being did Cecilia have on a wrist watch , a red plastic heart neckless with her name in white on the front of it, or a gold cross earring that was taken by her killer ? ( Two of the items were left in my car when the costume was put there )
ITA. Hartnell certainly could help eliminate innocent people who have been named at least just as Allan was eliminated by the lawyer who recently passed away.
I’m thinking that Zodiac could have just been "cruising around" isolated areas that he knew would attract young people/couples as well as looking for sports cars or other makes of cars that were driven by mostly young people. Bryan’s car could have caught his attention and he stopped and figured the owner was a guy who was very likely down by the water with a girlfriend.
If you have ever walked from Knoxville rd to the crime scene,you would have a better understanding of why I said what I did,about the idea that they may have been followed, And that could be how Zodiac knew it wasn’t just some guy fishing. It is one heck of a long walk for someone to then find out it wasn’t a couple . Hartnell thought he had heard that voice before and he could have heard it that same day , before they headed to Lake B.
It was only a thought that because Hartnell had a problem with his car that day,and it was fairly new at that time, I felt perhaps Zodiac tampered with it? That is something we all know Zodiac would sometimes do. Who knows Zodiac could have helped Hartnell get the car going again and that was why the voice sounded familiar.
It is just something to think about.
It was only a thought that because Hartnell had a problem with his car that day,and it was fairly new at that time, I felt perhaps Zodiac tampered with it? That is something we all know Zodiac would sometimes do. Who knows Zodiac could have helped Hartnell get the car going again and that was why the voice sounded familiar.
It is just something to think about.
The car was new to Bryan, he had not had it for long, but it was not a new car. It was a 1956.
http://www.zodiackiller.com/LBReport4.html
If you have ever walked from Knoxville rd to the crime scene,you would have a better understanding of why I said what I did,about the idea that they may have been followed, And that could be how Zodiac knew it wasn’t just some guy fishing. It is one heck of a long walk for someone to then find out it wasn’t a couple . Hartnell thought he had heard that voice before and he could have heard it that same day , before they headed to Lake B.
It was only a thought that because Hartnell had a problem with his car that day,and it was fairly new at that time, I felt perhaps Zodiac tampered with it? That is something we all know Zodiac would sometimes do. Who knows Zodiac could have helped Hartnell get the car going again and that was why the voice sounded familiar.
It is just something to think about.
Yes your scenario is entirely plausible and makes sense. I have never been to any of these scenes and didn’t realize it was such a long walk from where Hartnell had parked to the crime scene.
I was driven past the Paul Stine crime scene by my boyfriend when I visited him in the bay area and he pointed it out while we were looking for a gas station. He’d moved back to that area to work and had purchased a townhouse and wanted me to see it. This was in the late 1970’s.
(He’d shown up with skis in tow and surprised me a few months before at Lake Tahoe where I’d gone with a ski group. I was so shocked to see him standing on the steps of our group bus in the parking lot as I was coming down from the mountain at the end of the day. He asked me to go with him to a bar near by to talk as he wanted to make plans for the evening away from the group. I did and after an hour or so we left on the way to dinner. He had driven there from the bay area and wanted to stop at the motel where he was staying to freshen up and leave his skis. I thought nothing of this but stayed in the car rather than go into the room with him as he asked if I had wanted to do to freshen up.)
When reading about Donna Lass and the Paradise Motel I just about fell off my chair as that was the same motel where my friend was staying. I told him I’d just wait until I got to the motel where our group was staying to freshen up and leave my skis. That motel was about twenty minutes or so away from Lake Tahoe and was in Reno IIRC.
Since so much time has passed since I started following this case here, I’m thinking this is just simply another coincidence and not so floored by it since Lake Tahoe is a small area and my friend usually saves money when he can as his parents taught him and they preferred places like Motel Six even though they could have afforded other places. As I remember Lake Tahoe then, there weren’t too many small motels and this place could have been the only one so easily just another coincidence among so many that are just dots here.
After I returned home, my friend invited me to come see him and his townhouse as well as his new car (Datsun 280 ZX which I jokingly called his Z-mobile without a single thought of Z referring to the Zodiac who I’d not heard about or thought about in years by then. This was around 1979 sometime I think.)
Then we drove into S.F. and he took me to some of his favorite spots. I remember driving past the scene where Paul Stine was murdered and my friend pointed it out as well as the building across the street where the kids saw it. Then I seem to remember that he drove around these few same blocks at least three times and by the third time, asked if he was lost or why we kept driving around and he said he was looking for a gas station and think he said it had to be a certain one and Phillips 66 is what comes to mind now but really not sure after so many years and at the time he said he wasn’t sure just where it was as it had been a long time since he’d been there. Not sure but think he also pointed out another spot near Stine where a police officer had been shot as I seem to remember thinking it not too unusual he’d know about Stine but that it was surprising he’d remember about the policeman.
After getting gas, he took me to Harry Africa’s Bar which he told me all about but don’t remember just what the details about it were that impressed him so other than a unique train set that ran all around the room near the ceiling.
Sorry to go ot and so long but seeing Sandy’s comments bring this up in my mind again as some of the things she has experienced are so much like mine that I wondered for a long time if her poi could be the same as my friend but no longer think so since she has experienced contacts from hers that would have been nearly impossible for my friend to have made after a certain date, ie. 2009. Also the picture she posted of hers looks nothing like mine. Maybe from a distance there could be a resemblance and maybe coloring but seeing the face up close assures me there is no way they’re the same person.
Also now thinking of the Sierra Club postcard and "around in the snow." Have often wondered about word play here since a mogul is a round shape formed in snow by skiers making turns in the same spot as well as a well-to-do person financially. Moguls are pictured on that postcard in front of the condos where a skier or two is walking.
Hi Cap, Your friend was very strange indeed, because the Stine crime scene is pretty far from any gas stations.
Seagull, thanks for clearing that up about Bryans car not being a new car. The last time I drove to OR I saw a white Karmann Ghia just like his and couldn’t help but think about the two of them.
And i remember X having involvement with hartnell’s car..cant remeber exactly what but it was connected to X…i think
And i remember X having involvement with hartnell’s car..cant remeber exactly what but it was connected to X…i think
Are you saying Mr X aka KQ had something to do with Hartnells car ?
