Paul_Averly a better way to express what I think you were trying to say is regardless of who actually killed Ms. Bates, the writings are important because they prove a likely link to Zodiac. The murder of Cheri Bates is important, whoever killed her, because a young life was taken and her murder is unsolved.

You and I agree that it is highly likely that one man was the poem writer and letter writer, that he was very likely the murderer of Ms. Bates and that he very likely went on to become the Zodiac.

DOJ would not have included the Bates case in the Pert chart, if they didn’t believe it was a Z crime. They know a lot more than we do about all of the cases.Not everything is made public.
For instance, Zodiac had an unusual way of sealing his envelopes. Dave Toschi told me that back in the early 70’s. If any Z letters were done by a copy cat, it would have to be by someone who knew how he sealed the envelopes. That was one reason why Toschi was sadly falsely accused.
He was the most dedicated detective that I have ever had the pleasure of communicating with.

Hi Sandy, I am intrigued by this unique envelope sealing business. Toschi didn’t by any chance elaborate on this did he?

DOJ would not have included the Bates case in the Pert chart, if they didn’t believe it was a Z crime. They know a lot more than we do about all of the cases.Not everything is made public.
For instance, Zodiac had an unusual way of sealing his envelopes. Dave Toschi told me that back in the early 70’s. If any Z letters were done by a copy cat, it would have to be by someone who knew how he sealed the envelopes. That was one reason why Toschi was sadly falsely accused.
He was the most dedicated detective that I have ever had the pleasure of communicating with.

That pert chart, while interesting, is full of errors. They have the library closing between 5-6 pm. They mention a suspect who was in Riverside on November 29, 1966 (which interestingly is the date of the Confession Letter) and April 30th, 1967. Too bad as well they didn’t elaborate on the phone call. "Suspect may have made a phone call after the offense". Thx to ZodiacKiller.com http://zodiackiller.com/1971_doj_pert.pdf

Of course they would consider her…as well they should, but they were still trying to prove it as is law enforcement today.

Here also is a chart in regard to SF’s DNA testing. "Suspected". Unfortunately, no results either way. Odd too they included a photo of the desk! When we get DNA technology that advanced…a lot of bad guys will be in prison!

The Confession Letter was not included.

http://www.zodiackiller.com/SFPDDNA.html

Some very interesting debate on here over the last couple of days. On the face of it, the Riverside "activities" look to be obviously linked to the Bay Area crimes. Lots of similarities and of course – Zodiac alluded to it himself.

And therein lies the problem. Do we believe that Z was an honest person, helpful to LE and simply left (fairly) obvious trails to link his crimes? Or was he a blagger, a bit unoriginal, and a cunning, sly old fox? For those who don’t know them inside out, it might pay to fully study some British cases such as Jack the Ripper and the Yorkshire Ripper. Might be worth paying some attention to the numerous, cleverly written letters (and phone calls) which certain people sent to the police which just confused the whole case and led everyone up the wrong path.

It happens a lot and there’s a very good chance it happened a certain amount in the Z case.

And to add to the above – there was a lot of appalling work done on this case by LE. They really were like keystone cops at times and Z got away with a lot of things he shouldn’t have.

The 3 "Bates had to die" letters were included in the SFPD DNA chart for Zodiac. I believe the confession letter did not have a stamp.

Quag – I believe Zodiac was not being helpful when semi taking credit for Bates. If he was the letter writer and the killer of Ms. Bates, he gave false clues to make police think the killer was a local boy, a schoolmate of Cheri who knew her and had been rejected by her.

So by pointing police in the direction of Riverside("They’re only finding the easy ones", after Bates – Zodiac possible connection made the papers), Z led them to a case were available evidence (probably created by him) points to local boy who knew Cheri.

Z would only do that if in fact he was not local to Riverside. I think Z was playing chess, and the police were playing checkers. Badly.

…
Z would only do that if in fact he was not local to Riverside. I think Z was playing chess, and the police were playing checkers. Badly.

I agree misdirection was the point of the letter.

"MAKING HER PAY FOR THE BRUSH OFFS THAT SHE HAD GIVEN ME DURING THE YEARS PRIOR."

I would guess the opposite is true.

Morf – I took the liberty of modifying your good, concise and very helpful graphic showing similarities between the Riverside Bates case and the Zodiac. I reduced it in size so it doesn’t expand beyond the screen and gave you an authorship credit. I think it shows very clearly the matches between the two cases. On my computer it was so large it expanded off the screen, and you could not see all of it at one time. Two other things to consider is the "Z" sign off and both the Bates letter writer and Zodiac request that their letters be published in the paper.

It might also be good to mention the DOJ report that mentioned the confession envelope written in felt tip pen.

My reply in Red.

There are 3 possibilities.

1) Z wrote the Riverside writings.

2) The Riverside writing were unrelated to Zodiac.

3) Z did not write the Riverside writing, however he:

*Read a very specific article in Inside Detective.

*Copied the misspellings and wording styles from the confession reproduction. Why not–if one believes he copied the Death Wheel…
I don’t believe that, there is no proof.
*Don’t you claim that letter was written by yet another copycat? You invalidated your own point.

*Somehow managed to guess the handwriting style of the Riverside writer. The letters don’t look like Zodiac’s writing.
The Bates had to die letter author was clearly attempting to hide his handwriting, however similarities can still be seen.
That is not counting the desktop that has even more that lines up with Z.
*But I though Z copied his writing style from these, are you again invalidated your own point

*Fooled the state handwriting expert with his forged Riverside handwriting. Shimoda didn’t think it was Zodiac
Got it, Sherwood is correct 0% of the time, Shimoda is 100%.
*It is possible Sherwood could be correct. He did deal with the Z writing more than Shimoda.

(All this with the low intelligence that Harden notes)

Then Z
*Happened to also use double postage like many of the Riverside envelopes. The Riverside envelopes had to have double postage with the stamp used.
The claim is that Z copied his style from the Riverside case, however the double postage and felt tip pen is all just a coincidence?
*If there was a published source you would also claim he copied these as well.

*Managed to have the Riverside case linked to the Z crimes. Zodiac didn’t "manage to"…it just happened.
Well he sure didn’t try hard to have the connection made.

*Happened to take credit for a crime that was, like his crimes, never solved to this day. Zodiac never took credit for Cheri Jo Bates…only "activity",
which yes, could have been writings or even murders, but never claimed her. If it was solved and he didn’t do it…no big deal..
?

*Copied the misspellings and wording styles from the confession reproduction. Why not–if one believes he copied the Death Wheel…
I don’t believe that, there is no proof.

No proof? Ok, then. You’ve just shown your obvious lack of observational skills. Thanks, P_A!

I have been absorbing posts all week but I still do not see Zodiac connected to Bates. It is tragic that a young life was taken and people believe that is what is important here, but the case will only get solved if the right path is taken. I strongly believe the Zodiac path is not the correct one. I also strongly believe the writer of the SHTD/BHTD letters and CONFESSION was not the killer of Ms. Bates, It is even possible the letters themselves were written by two different people but I rarely work with possibilities; I prefer probability. Analyzing the letters indicates the author was young (possibly in the late teen- early twenty range). If this proves correct, I think this rules out it being a Zodiac case. I am still trying to finesse some help from Riverside without ruffling feathers or costing someone their job. I get the impression that most of the hostility stems from being called inept, or being told the Zodiac killed Bates.

And Mr. Morrill made critical errors in analyzing the documents. He was a QDE but there was nothing of significance to compare exemplars with. I believe Mr. Morrill determined a connection linguistically, and that was not his forte. I haven’t figured the desk top poem into the scenario yet; it’s discovery seems convenient. Mr. Morrill, being the States top QDE, had to be aware that a definitive connection, nor a probable connection for that matter, could have been determined from dissimilar exemplars. At best, a possibility exists but possibility is only two letters away from being an impossibility. If someone wants, or needs, to use Bates as another cog in their Zodiac theory, I suggest they do what I did and find a disinterested QDE to reexamine the documents. They’ll find that no one wants to give any definitive response, especially since the exemplars are not originals.

I know there is a lot of skepticism surrounding QDE’s, and there are those QDE’s that add to that skepticism. Gary Stewart said he searched weeks before he was able to find a QDE that "fulfilled [his] request." That tells me he passed on a lot of good ones before finding the one that would stoop to writing a 65-page report on one single signature. Even Shimoda disagreed with Morrill proving that any professional used by the prosecution can be refuted by a like-professional from the defense.

I guess the point I’m trying to make without ruffling any feathers HERE is that people should invest in their own studies rather than use outdated opinions. The Bates homicide is a tragedy; the Zodiac homicides are a tragedy. I know we would all like to see them resolved. However, varying beliefs on the relation between the two will cause both to remain unsolved. The Bates homicide will remain unsolved as long as we are split on whether the Zodiac was involved or not. The Zodiac crimes will remain unsolved for the same reason. An investigation cannot truly begin if there is no beginning. The Zodiac case should begin at Lake Herman Road; Bates should be investigated independently. If the paths intersect later, fine. If not, at least we have two solid beginnings for two tragic cases.

If we were to believe from the onset that Bates was a Zodiac victim, then the only explanation for all of the suspects and POI’s on this forum being in Riverside killing Bates is this: Ross, Kaczynski, Allen and Gaikowski were the men seen sitting on the fence. The other explanation is somebody is wrong.

*Copied the misspellings and wording styles from the confession reproduction. Why not–if one believes he copied the Death Wheel…
I don’t believe that, there is no proof.

No proof? Ok, then. You’ve just shown your obvious lack of observational skills. Thanks, P_A!

There is no proof Z copied the wording on the letter of October 27th 1970 from an obscure comic book. It’s possible, but there is no proof of this.
Your claim is that Zodiac is a copycat of the confession based his copying of the comic book.

However you also claim the letter of October 27th 1970 was written by another copycat.
Therefore you have invalidated your own point since Z was not the letter writer.

If we were to believe from the onset that Bates was a Zodiac victim, then the only explanation for all of the suspects and POI’s on this forum being in Riverside killing Bates is this: Ross, Kaczynski, Allen and Gaikowski were the men seen sitting on the fence. The other explanation is somebody is wrong.

I think your post was a logical one, CMLO. I just had to highlight that last part as it made me chuckle a bit.

You stated something very important. Cheri Jo’s case has to be looked at independently, aside of all the Zodiac mumbo-jumbo. That’s not to say it shouldn’t have been considered at all. They did, and it was…and still will be, if necessary.

I think some tend to forget the Riverside Police Department isn’t trying to figure out who Zodiac was…they are trying to figure out who killed Cheri. At this point, DNA and greasy fingerprints are really all they have.

I have often expressed anyone who contacts the RPD do so without mentioning Zodiac. I wish you luck!

I have often expressed anyone who contacts the RPD do so without mentioning Zodiac. I wish you luck!

Thanks, Tahoe!