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A Clie[sic]?

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Yeah that’s right I said ‘clie’

I am, among other things, currently and it seems, continuously working on the poem. This may well serve to illustrate why these things take so long. You start looking at one aspect of it and then something else occurs and you have to pursue it. I’m going to show you what I’m talking about and hopefully explain what interests me. I had to stop scrutinizing it.

What I noticed was this. in the "to die" we have two potentially interesting things going on here. Firstly we have the oft debated O with the dot at it’s centre. Then we have that ‘weird’ d which is a favorite of the no camp and rightly so.

I want to make clear at this point what it is that specifically interests me. It’s the bottom or baseline section of that ‘d’.

That shaping is interesting because there’s potentially two things going on here. The first thing, and perhaps the most tangible, is the shape itself. That ‘lift’ or upward inflection on the right hand side. The other, less tangible part, I will get to in a moment. In the attachment below I have shown, what I believe, are examples of this potential habit displayed by Zodiac.

The first thing that you will probably notice is the ‘Eightball & Aries’ comparison. For a moment, if you can, forget what they are and think about the shapes. A circle and a symbol. The symbol follows the circle and the base of the symbol is very similar to that of the d in the word ‘die’. Without further investigation I wouldn’t like to say it’s a definite but out of the samples shown that configuration seems to produce the closet similarity in the base shape to that of the desk poem and it’s a circle>symbol configuration. I’m thinking here about supporting shapes and habit expansion. i.e did that configuration produce the closet match because it’s another, subtle layer of habit?

I have included for comparison the other instances of those symbol types from the ciphers and also the backwards J’s as I feel they exhibit similar potential shaping habits. It might not seem like much but believe me – in the context of the other things I’ve found and am still working through, very, very interesting.


What the hell’s this ‘clie’ business? It’s just me being cute. I can’t help it. I’m a designer and when it comes to anything visual I like visual puns. It might be semi serious too though. At this point it’s a thought, an idea for consideration.

We have long debated whether or not that O and that d might have been cipher symbols. I don’t really want to get into that too much at the moment but I do want to touch on it. In the examples I have show above you will notice that the source material for comparison came from the ciphers. This, in itself, might actually be the clue. He might, as a subtle hint, have decorated or embellished those two letters as a sort of signature or hint and that might be showing in the fact that the baseline shape habits are most commonly shared with the cipher symbols. Simply put – those look like cipher symbols because that’s what he was thinking of when he did them and it’s not without it’s precedents. The practice of mixing or consolidating different shapes into a possible. hidden meaning, symbol. The bates letters, the HC Card, the Exorcist letter.

I’m not suggesting it means anything. I am suggesting it might be a visual hint. An allusion for his own gratification. It’s also a widely used technique in brand crafting. Graphic elements in words that have a meaning relevant to the subject. The subject in this case of course might be Zodiac and a subtly inserted ‘nod’ to cryptography is very relevant.

In the spirit of hidden meanings and Zync I couldn’t help notice that the ‘d’ could be split to a C & L and that gives us ‘Clie’. In the 408 the letter ‘i’ is represented by the symbol ‘u’ (amongst others). Replace the letter with it’s symbol and we get ‘clue’. Smack bang in the middle of what might actually be one :D Is that what he did? Who the hell knows but if it were me it’s cute and hokey enough to have crossed my mind and notice it. Maybe not intentional but I wonder if he noticed it too?

I don’t know Chief, he’s very smart or very dumb.

Posted : July 26, 2015 7:23 am
Posts: 2547
Famed Member

I find it very hard to discuss this. Though I do want more discussion on the handwriting.

Some questions,

– I’ve been reading (somewhere, don’t remember) that the original message was carved and then it was written over but it doesn’t seem so?
– If the message was just written with a pen, could the ingraining throw some of the shapes off here and there?
– Really wonder how that "d" was constructed. There seems to be no evidence of looping?
– Also wondering how he drew the anker symbol, I’ve tested myself and also noticed unevenness of legs/sides, sometimes the left leg is shorter but mostly it’s the right leg.
– How was the anker symbol drawn/constructed?


Posted : July 27, 2015 10:47 am
Posts: 3583
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– I’ve been reading (somewhere, don’t remember) that the original message was carved and then it was written over but it doesn’t seem so?
– If the message was just written with a pen, could the ingraining throw some of the shapes off here and there?
– Really wonder how that "d" was constructed. There seems to be no evidence of looping?

At best I can offer my thoughts on these points as I feel they all overlap.

Written vs carved. It’s always been a slightly vague area. Having looked at this desk for a few years now I’m of the opinion that the poem is written however there are areas where he had trouble. You can see these areas quite clearly. This is where the surface resistance comes into play as well. In areas where he encounters difficulties the is usually an ‘overdrawing’ as you would expect. This is evident in any characters that contain curves. He gets away with some of them but in others the pen appears to cut out. There may be varnish remnants on those areas, possibly in the grain, I don’t know. It’s quite likely the grain itself causing the problem. We see it in the O’s and it also havens in his V. In these characters he’s cutting across the grain. I don’t think this is a hardwood surface and that I believe is reflected in the fact that he seems to get away with it in areas but not continuously. Certainly not consistently.

This is where the character shapes come into play. It’s a whole other layer or investigation pertaining specifically to the desk but I believe his ‘shape’ choices were also, to a degree, dictated by the surface.

Look at the lowercase ‘r’ in the word ‘red’. He appears to attempt to construct it with a curved top. It doesn’t work so he finishes it by overwriting. Thereafter and instances of the lowercase ‘r’ are angular in construction. We get down to the word ‘uncertain’ and he tries again then just gives up sticking with the angular equivalent. He also does this with his lowercase ‘h’. For whatever reason it gives him less trouble but again he alternates from curved to angular. Then right at the very end. Not Being one to give up easily he tries one last time with bot the ‘r’ and the ‘h’. The ‘r’ is slow and heavy but he makes it. The ‘h’ ends up being a kind of half-way house between the curved and the angular.

It hasn’t escaped my notice the irony of the ‘r’ & ‘h’ giving him trouble. Maybe that’s not a sign off at all. Maybe it’s one last go at getting those letters right. :lol:

As for the ‘d’. Yes you are right. He doesn’t seem to have made any attempt at curvature which is odd. I could have suggested that he was anticipating problems with curves on that surface but that doesn’t make sense as he already managed them on that same line. Maybe he struck a difficult patch of surface? He also seems to manage the remaining ‘d’s in the poem with relative ease.

This brings up back to the bit that interested me. The extra part. There’s no apparent reason for it being there and there’s no equivalent to it anywhere else in the poem or Zodiac communications. The nearest I can find is in the ‘anker’ and in it I can see what I believe is a construction similarity/possible writing habit. Call it what you will. I don’t doubt that it’s a letter ‘d’. My query now though is, is it just a letter ‘d’ or is it also something else? Given that it appears immediately after the letter O which also looks like it’s been ‘ciphersymbolarized’ and that it appears, to my eye, to have similar construction properties to the cipher symbols I really now am starting to wonder if they are meant to, visually at least, represent symbols. Not to have a hidden message that can be read but rather one that can be seen … if you know what you are looking at.

I’ve been reasonable ambivalent, dismissive even, about that O with the apparent dot in it. With the possibility of related shenanigans beside it I do have to wonder but there’s no real way to know for sure. I certainly wouldn’t say it constitutes proof but the construction similarities really interest me and that, combined with the other letters and their habits … well, this is just another one to add to the mix that I hadn’t expected. Speculation on hidden meanings aside, the base shape of that ‘d’ is exiting enough for me.

I don’t get out much. :P

I don’t know Chief, he’s very smart or very dumb.

Posted : July 27, 2015 11:54 am
Posts: 1197
Noble Member

The topic at hand the O with a dot gives reason for thought..also Why the dots on a weird ass symbol (the anchor thingy) the symbol does not mean anything anyway, or does it.. and It’s not a one off either.. And if you happen to throw in Donna Lass symbol he had a thing for dots. Or an ulterior motive. Dots n dashes.. Cards and letters n codes n things he was crazy for them.. Y-.-

Row 17 artifact 7 of the 340.. Tentavly ties the poem in with the circle n dot ..pretty rare, or strange or coincidental.or

Posted : July 27, 2015 2:40 pm
Posts: 1764
Noble Member


I respect you more than anyone on here when it comes to handwriting analysis. In fact, you’re pretty much the only one on here I respect, as the other ones seem to favor whatever they favor due to some set idea or other – and they also seem, as my (caustic) grandma would’ve said, “none too wise, particularly”.

But. Enough of the praise. A true artist – and a decent man – needs no praise.

Two questions:

If the surface plays a part here (as you seem to suggest), to what extent is it necessary to examine the desktop itself (and not a photo of it) in order to determine how the…writing was done?

What is there, here, which is incongruous or otherwise not like the known/canonical Z letters. I know that you’ve commented on this before, but as a service both to me (who doesn’t deserve it) and the world at large (which may, possibly, deserve it), could you make a “little list”?

Posted : July 27, 2015 11:54 pm
Posts: 3583
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Topic starter

could you make a “little list”?

No and yes and possibly.

Let me outline some problems from my pov. Firstly there are ‘little lists’ so to speak that already exist and have been posted by others. These are imo technically accurate but only on a certain level. That being the level to which you have already referred ie based on the canonical letters. To be honest though even that might not strictly be true because I think some of those pre-existing lists are inaccurate even within the canonical range.

I want to make it very clear that I really have tried to be impartial in the task of looking at this desk. That was my original remit to myself. Everyone was arguing over this thing and I thought I could take a look and maybe see something that might clarify the whole issue. That was a few years ago and it’s still going lol. I’m not trying to prove that Zodiac wrote the thing but rather to explore every minute aspect of it as best I can.

Anywho … back to the point in hand. I can, off the top of my head ‘list’ one thing that is clearly different and that is the lower case y.

That might, in some cases, be enough to cast doubt but honestly, with all of the other correlations that I’ve found (a lot I haven’t shown yet) it’s becoming less of a sticking point for me. It’s becoming more of a case of ok, it’s just something he did and even that may tell us something eventually. As for the benefits of examining the thing in person – I could only speculate and we may never know unfortunately. That could really only be answered by a qualified examiner actually doing it to determine whether or not any extra information is there such as pressure. Despite the surface.

There’s a narrative in Zodiac’s handwriting and that narrative, as far as I can tell, is present in that desk poem. His slight variations in certain characters, his alternating versions of certain characters, his base line shaping habits all exist in that poem. There’s even a few easter eggs. The lowercase ‘g’s are very good when compared to Z’s but look at the g on the end of ‘spilling’. Now go look at ‘1959’ in the centre of the ‘Citizen letter’. There’s more to that but I thought you would find it interesting … possibly.

Sorry that all these posts have been so long. It’s really hard to give short answers on this subject because I think there’s more here than we’re seeing on the surface (no pun intended although it works quite well lol)

I don’t know Chief, he’s very smart or very dumb.

Posted : July 28, 2015 12:32 am
Posts: 419
Reputable Member

My thought mirrors norse..we need to have a look see at the real deal here and not a copy..traveler u get some accolades though..this shit makes my head hurt..not sure how you stick with it..you would make a good crime lab tech..yea may b they are a lil weird ((lab rats-how do they end up with supermodel women) but good job non the less..it is time sfpd or whoever has that desk top to make another go at having an expert today take a look see for a more up to date opinionated analysis..

Yes this is compelling with the d’s structure which is found in other z writing..i cant seem to get over the hurdle of a student being involved..a faculty member would have been at ease vandalising skol property..what if that desk was in a faculty members office for whatever reason..ample time to construct that poem at leisure..but i do sense it was penned hastily and in anger and more than likely within days after the homocide..it seems to me as well whoever penned the poem was trying to come to grips with trying to resolve the why or reasoning in there own mind she had to die..was the writer fighting the mental demons and trying to resolve the fact he had killed cjb sorta thing-i think so..there is a saying..after the first one all the rest are free..any how..who would suspect a faculty member walking to the janitors junk desk closet storage with that desk..prolly no one..then a few months later it is found.. nobody could even have given a clue where it had been other than an i dunno..its a students desk..they are in every classroom..time to shut up..god speed

One last then promise i go away…cjb walking away from her car has always irked me a lil..did rcc have campus cops back then..seems i read somewhere they did..anyhow..if the perp trash was in a position of authority i could see cjb walking down that alley..sorta hey miss my squad car is over here ill give you a ride home sorta thing..anybody ever look at any young very early 20’s cop who worked for rcc part time?..if rcc employeed a young part time cop it may prove a fruitful endevour for a z sleuth to take a little time diggin further…

Posted : July 28, 2015 12:57 am