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Bates Desktop poem

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glurk
(@glurk)
Posts: 756
Prominent Member
 

If you have some evidence that Riverside is not Z then lets hear it. We keep presenting a lot of evidence, similar handwriting, similar word usage, similar misspelling, and the boot print, and the call, and the double postage and the ruse, and so on.

All we keep hearing is, "…don’t get me started."

If you have something then lets see it. Show us some, ANY, evidence this was not Z.

Paul_Averly-

You damn well know that that isn’t how it works. I could say that Zodiac was actually the man who shot JFK, prove that I’m wrong. Show EVIDENCE!

Some of us – including myself – are skeptical about Riverside, and will remain so, until it can be proven that it was Z. One does not start with an assumption and ask people to prove it wrong. Quit asking people to prove a negative. Don’t get me started.

-glurk

——————————–
I don’t believe in monsters.

 
Posted : February 22, 2015 11:26 am
Paul_Averly
(@paul_averly)
Posts: 857
Prominent Member
 

SIMILAR is not proof.

I’m not saying it’s proof. The evidence points in the direction of Z being the perp.
Even though we have a list of evidence that appears very similar to Zodiac, the boot print not being the same size is enough to dismiss all of it?
Do you realize that the boot print being a military one also points to Z?

Your logic would suggest that LHR was also NOT Z, since the boot print was not the same size.

The FBI apparently concurred.

The FBI did not investigate this case. They took over at a point to simply archive all the information in the investigation.

Double postage would have been required if that was the only stamp he had. And if that was some sort of trait, why no stamps at all on the other envelopes?

What other envelopes? The majority of Z letters had double postage.

which authorities apparently agree.

Who? Dave Toschi and his pet suspect ALA? Or RPD and their pet suspect BB.

Why don’t you show evidence? If it was actually evidence, Cheri Jo would be a confirmed Zodiac victim and she is not.

My evidence is listed over and over and over again. similar handwriting, similar word usage, similar misspelling, and the boot print, and the call, and the double postage and the ruse, and so on.

 
Posted : February 22, 2015 11:55 am
Tahoe27
(@tahoe27)
Posts: 5315
Member Moderator
 

The FBI was involved and gave their opinion as to the handwriting. The files are at this site for you to read.

I, as well as others have also stated our case. Take it or leave it.

You call it evidence, I don’t.

If we state our opinion as to the writing NOT looking like Zodiac; never a y like the desktop, never a g like the desktop, never big round bubbly b’s like the bates letters or cursive lower case m’s or odd e’s, and so on and so on…it becomes "Zodiac changing his writing" and THAT is used as your evidence. Come on!

OBVIOUSLY there are similarities. Some have even stated they believed Zodiac COULD have written some of the Riverside letters, but not killed Cheri Jo. I have even at times considered this notion.

No double postage on the Confession letter. If there was some meaning to using two stamps other than necessity, why none?

You threw out the boot print! How is that EVIDENCE if it DOESN’T MATCH? Just odd….


…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep. L.A. Times, 1969

 
Posted : February 22, 2015 12:20 pm
morf13
(@morf13)
Posts: 7527
Member Admin
Topic starter
 

The desktop poem and the SLA letter? …don’t get me started. :D

The g’s on the desk…those bug me too. I think we can find more similar writing from all of the top five suspects. :)

Do smiley faces help? haha

By the way Trav…I can’t believe I didn’t notice the extra postage on the desk! Darn it!!

If you have some evidence that Riverside is not Z then lets hear it. We keep presenting a lot of evidence, similar handwriting, similar word usage, similar misspelling, and the boot print, and the call, and the double postage and the ruse, and so on.

All we keep hearing is, "…don’t get me started."

If you have something then lets see it. Show us some, ANY, evidence this was not Z.

All you keep hearing is "don’t get me started"? Are you serious? It was a joke for Trav. :roll: You keep hearing that?

I and others have presented it over and over again, but you have obviously not read it with any sincerity. Refer back to my post about "errors in reasoning".

SIMILAR is not proof. The FBI apparently concurred. The boot print isn’t the same size as LB, so… Double postage would have been required if that was the only stamp he had. And if that was some sort of trait, why no stamps at all on the other envelope?

Look, you can disagree with me, that is fine, but please don’t act like I haven’t legitimately stated my take–one in which authorities apparently agree. Why don’t you show evidence? If it was actually evidence, Cheri Jo would be a confirmed Zodiac victim and she is not.

Alright gang, let’s keep it civil!

A couple things, Tahoe you mentioned, boot prints size not matching, and Cheri not being a confirmed Z Victim. There are many of us that think she may not be a Z Victim, but Z may have written letters in her case along with the desk poem.

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : February 22, 2015 12:36 pm
Tahoe27
(@tahoe27)
Posts: 5315
Member Moderator
 

Yes morf….I mentioned that in my last post and that I have entertained that notion at times as well.

I did not bring up the boot print and could not figure out how it would be considered evidence–whether Zodiac killed her or just wrote the letters.


…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep. L.A. Times, 1969

 
Posted : February 22, 2015 12:42 pm
traveller1st
(@traveller1st)
Posts: 3583
Member Moderator
 

The g’s on the desk…those bug me too. I think we can find more similar writing from all of the top five suspects. :)

Or we could just look at the ‘bus bomb’ letter ;)

EDIT: Just to add. There are more similarities that I have found and could illustrate in regards to the construction of those characters and other characters but this is a quick example using rough side-by-sides. There are little turns and ticks and bends and flicks …. a little typography poem for ya’s …. that exist in just those g’s alone that Zodiac also uses. Those I will do on my handwriting ‘the big one’ thread at some point.

Also to add. The examples I have show here are from two concurrent pages in the bus bomb letter(s) and if evened out constitute less than one letter’s length. The point being that the subtle differences we see between the form of the g’s in the desk poem over, what?, not even half it’s length are proportionately mirrored in their existence in the bus bomb letter. ie. In the poem we have form or shape differences that I would refer to as this:

An oval top, an angular top with a little hook/bend at the end and a pointed loop. There is also the open, almost u or y shaped top. These I have paired with similar construction versions in the bus bomb letter. So not only do they look pretty damn similar they also mirror the ‘change’ habits that I suspect are an ingrained pattern which reveals itself when employing groupings of concurrent characters. Lower case g’s in this instance. So that’s a few levels of similarity presented here and not just a case of – well these look like them.

I hope that makes sense. Patterns of writing similarities too in a nutshell.

….and the straight tails obviously. Not only are they straight (duh) but their lengths in proportion to the tops in both the desk and the Zodiac examples are, imo, consistent and comparable.

Here are the ‘tops’ isolated. It tricky to show but hopefully it will give an idea. With the different angles between the desk and the letters it can be a bit distracting to compare but the most noticeable difference is actually in the tail angle. The tops of the letters, in regards their angles, are pretty close to each other.


I don’t know Chief, he’s very smart or very dumb.

 
Posted : February 22, 2015 3:00 pm
traveller1st
(@traveller1st)
Posts: 3583
Member Moderator
 

By the way Trav…I can’t believe I didn’t notice the extra postage on the desk! Darn it!!

Should think so too. That took me howers and howers. Not really. :lol: :P


I don’t know Chief, he’s very smart or very dumb.

 
Posted : February 22, 2015 3:20 pm
traveller1st
(@traveller1st)
Posts: 3583
Member Moderator
 

Trav I concur with your conclusions, but you left out that candy cane f on the desktop which is an obvious match to the one on Hartnell’s car door

I did but i didn’t. But I did.

I was just concentrating on the characters that were of interest due to either their commission from the rest of the letters or their ‘one time’ inclusion in the final letters.


I don’t know Chief, he’s very smart or very dumb.

 
Posted : February 22, 2015 3:22 pm
Patinky
(@patinky)
Posts: 196
Estimable Member
 

I have no opinion on whether or not Z wrote the desktop poem but would the 7" or 7 1/2" Timex found at the Bates scene likely fit an individual as large as 200-250 pounds. We discussed this once a few years ago. That is rather small, imo, for a male matching Zodiac’s description.

Possibly Z did the writings in the Bates case but didn’t participate in the murder (which has been discussed here).

The "RH" guy in the Betsy Aardsma murder, Richard Haefner, still nags at me for the poem writer, especially since Aardsma had on a red dress and since Haefner was a college instructor with, iirc, professional ties to nearby California college(s).

Someone correct me if I’m wrong and have misremembered anything :lol: or Haefner has already been eliminated as a viable Bates suspect.

When in doubt, don’t.

 
Posted : February 22, 2015 10:00 pm
morf13
(@morf13)
Posts: 7527
Member Admin
Topic starter
 

I have no opinion on whether or not Z wrote the desktop poem but would the 7" or 7 1/2" Timex found at the Bates scene likely fit an individual as large as 200-250 pounds. We discussed this once a few years ago. That is rather small, imo, for a male matching Zodiac’s description.

Possibly Z did the writings in the Bates case but didn’t participate in the murder (which has been discussed here).

The "RH" guy in the Betsy Aardsma murder, Richard Haefner, still nags at me for the poem writer, especially since Aardsma had on a red dress and since Haefner was a college instructor with, iirc, professional ties to nearby California college(s).

Someone correct me if I’m wrong and have misremembered anything :lol: or Haefner has already been eliminated as a viable Bates suspect.

Haefner has been in California at times, mostly southern CA, in fact, he died in CA. I could ask Derek Sherwood, Author of the Aardsma book if he has any samples of Haefner’s writing. He’s actually a member here, but hasnt been active much in a long time

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : February 22, 2015 10:13 pm
Patinky
(@patinky)
Posts: 196
Estimable Member
 

(snipped for brevity)

Haefner has been in California at times, mostly southern CA, in fact, he died in CA. I could ask Derek Sherwood, Author of the Aardsma book if he has any samples of Haefner’s writing. He’s actually a member here, but hasnt been active much in a long time

I don’t know Mr. Sherwood, so that would be nice if you have time. Thanks.

When in doubt, don’t.

 
Posted : February 22, 2015 10:26 pm
Tahoe27
(@tahoe27)
Posts: 5315
Member Moderator
 

Thanks as always for your efforts in showing comparisons Trav. I know it is time consuming work! I have looked at this before when considering the g’s and when you look at the letter as a whole; with the slants, etc., it still has a very different look to me. But not to a lot of you and that is fine. I’m not here to change anyone’s personal beliefs, just to express my own.

All we can hope is one day Cheri’s killer is caught. Watching TV programs like "Forensic Files" shows us these cold cases are being solved all the time, by the tiniest of forensic evidence. I truly believe the future will help provide answers.


…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep. L.A. Times, 1969

 
Posted : February 23, 2015 12:20 am
Norse
(@norse)
Posts: 1764
Noble Member
 

All we can hope is one day Cheri’s killer is caught. Watching TV programs like "Forensic Files" shows us these cold cases are being solved all the time, by the tiniest of forensic evidence. I truly believe the future will help provide answers.

I’ll drink to that.

 
Posted : February 23, 2015 12:34 am
traveller1st
(@traveller1st)
Posts: 3583
Member Moderator
 

Thank you T as well because as odd as it might seem we need, I need that difference of opinion. With the desk poem I was always intrigued with the differences and the differing opinions.

Nothing I post is ever from the standpoint of "I know". It’s just "here’s what I see" and it’s possibly a lot of the stuff that Morrill saw too and that’s always been my main motivation regarding any of the writing. It’s not to say "Morrill was right" but more to hopefully bring some transparency as to why he thought it was Zodiac.

They do look different with the slants but that’s why I wanted to show the overall similarities in the angles of the tops as well as the similar construction methods and construction. For me the reason is the surface and we don’t know at what angle the poem was written from. The surface resistance due to the grain make it likely and plausible that his usual slant was not viable so in looking beyond that the similarities, to my eye, are there and there are quite a number of them. Put it this way. I don’t know if Zodiac wrote that thing but the more I look at the more, not less, convinced I become. Even with the parts that don’t seem to tally there is always something about them that seems to fit. Still, it’s not a complete puzzle yet in that regards and that’s why we are all here. Maybe one day when all the thoughts and opinions have been weighed and sifted we might concede to a consensus.

Maybe lol.

Everyone sing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9_nXlvY6Io :D


I don’t know Chief, he’s very smart or very dumb.

 
Posted : February 23, 2015 2:58 am
(@dag-maclugh)
Posts: 794
Prominent Member
 

Thanks, Trav! Not for bolstering my opinion, which you have, but for all the time and work you’ve put into your analysis. You know, we’ve got a bunch of folks in this forum who’ve researched the hell out of the Zodiac murders, plus Cheri’s murder and Johns’ abduction. What gets me is that, so far as I know, LE has ignored our efforts and conclusions. You’d think that, once in a great while, they’d stop by and make a comment, even if negative.
I believe that if the Zodiac murders are ever solved, it will be through the efforts of us, and those like us.

 
Posted : February 23, 2015 4:17 am
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