The police think Z only had a 6 minute window to kill. I think it’s likely 3-4 minutes. That car(if it existed),without a doubt, had to be Zodiac’s. Owen claims there were no people or bodies around the cars, inside or out. A 1/4 mile up the road, he claims he heard a shot, which is likely about 20 seconds later or so. Therefore, that car would have to be Zodiac’s if the shooting started that soon. There was no time for the car to leave and another to pull in, get out and start shooting. And where were the two Victims & the driver of that car when Owen went by? No place to be seen, but 20 seconds later, Owen hears a shot, which means they were there at the crime scene. Some would argue that Zodiac had them out of the car already,and ordered them down behind the cars when Owen went by, and therefore Owen did not see them. While that’s possible, it seems as if the kids would have made a run for it when Owen’s car went by to get help,not to mention,the evidence seems to show that Faraday was shot immediately after sliding out of his passenger door(not shot outside as if standing outside already). That didnt happen. Others have said that, maybe Zodiac & the two Victims ducked down in their seats when Owen went by, or that the two victims were ducked down necking in their car when Owen went by, thats also possible, but unlikely. All of the other people that went by the scene saw the two victums in their car,never were they ducked down, and if Zodiac was ducked down, he would have had to have sprang out right after Owen went by, jumped out and tried to order the kids out,then firing his warning shot, all within 20 seconds. Sorry, but these are the only two real possibilities in my estimation, which is why Owen continues to be the most obvious suspect in my book.

The scenario could very well have played out like this:

*The hunters leave the scene

*Owen happens upon the scene

*Owen backs in, his Driver’s door is far away from the Victims. He gets out and perhaps, Faraday feeling uneasy, starts his car or starts to back up. Owen,just outside of his own driver’s door, to stop Dave from attempting to leave,fires a warning shot in the air, or into the back of Faraday’s car.

*Owen walks around his own car, to the passenger side of Dave’s car, and orders them out, maybe telling them "all I want is your money", or some other BS story. The two teens slide out thru the passenger side, and Dave is immediately shot, which sends Betty running, and then she is shot in the back. She falls on her side.

*Owen gets in his car,and since he was backed in, he is able to drive straight forward,not running over the bodies(its a very tight area there, and backing up would have been hard to do without running over the kids)and heads off towards his Humble Oil alibi job in Benicia, having no idea that Stella Borges is about to pass the crime scene

*Stella comes along a moment or two later, and immediately sees the two victims, and specifically sees Betty on her side(the same as what Z mentions that she was on her side). Stella races off for help, and Betty who expires, falls over face down, which is how she is found when police get back to the scene.

*Zodiac mailed letters immediately following most of his crimes, but why wait 8 months to claim Faraday & Jensen? I think it’s likely that Zodiac, felt he was a suspect, or was on the list of suspects for the Lake Herman Rd murders, and waited until he felt the coast was clear to write a letter taking credit for the crime. Owen certainly was somewhat of a suspect, police took multiple statements from him, tested his guns(rifles), and according to Owen, they had him test drive his route that night. Sloppily, and carelessly, according to Owen, they never asked him for writing samples, or finger prints. When they realized that a handgun and NOTa rifle was used, they never came back to Owen asking for his handguns.

In Owen, you have a guy that is brand new to the area, ex-air force(wing walkers),and is at the crime scene during the small window of time when Z struck. How police didn’t properly rule this guy out is beyone me.

Sorry to take this off topic a bit, but back to the topic of the bullets(and casings), I think the scenario above is the only one that explains that one shell casing so far from the others, that Z backed in and fired a shot in the air perhaps immediately after getting out of his car, and this completely is at odds with what Owen claims he saw, which once again, would make Owen a liar.

Only read the first paragraph of your post so far and simply had to comment on the sentence I highlighted before reading on through the rest of the post.

That is a question I asked regarding Owen’s sighting, where was The Zodiac in the flesh? And more importantly, where were Dave and Betty?? Were they both threatened and made to duck down and not be visible through the windshield? Already out and made to crouch behind one of the two vehicles? What we can assume with some degree of certainty, assuming obviously that Owen’s statement is accurate and truthful, is that at the time Owen passes, Z must have only just arrived there seconds before he passes because David isn’t lying face down outside the rambler, nor is Betty led on the gravel parking area. So, they must be alive, but where? I mean if they were both still in David’s Rambler and were told to duck down with Zodiac rushing to hide behind the vehicle, then I don’t if it’s just me, but i’d be starting the engine and throwing my vehicle out onto the road to cause a deliberate collision with Owen’s as he is just pulling into sight. The only place that I can see where and how Z would be able to maintain control forcing them to hide by ducking is if he himself had got into the rear of the rambler and ducked while keeping the gun focused on them.
It seems rather convenient does Owen’s account.
1. Two vehicles parked in the turn in area, recognised the one vehicle that just happens to be the victims but could not see the details of the other as it was parked at an angle.
2. Happens to drive past at the time when Zodiac has arrived on scene, but hasn’t shot anyone yet which would be instantly obvious if body’s were lying on the ground but no, he happens to drive past in between Zodiac arriving, and him carrying out his homicidal urges.
3. Zodiac was very lucky wasn’t he, a minute later here, or two minutes earlier there and Owen would have driven past just after Z had shot and killed David & Betty which would be almost impossible to not notice David and/or Betty lying on the ground. This again is another coincidental stroke of luck in the crime timeline.

Morf in the first statement he gave which way around did his discrepancy go, did he say in the first statement the second car was parked parallel to the rambler only feet away, then in the second statement say there was several vehicles width distance between each, or was it the other way around and in the first statement he said the two vehicles were set apart at a fair distance from each other, then In second statement say they were far close? I’m just trying to think from his perspective and wondering why , what reaon could there be for him to change the distance between vehicle A & vehicle B. (I am going to, at least for the moment, assume he consciously changed the distance between victim & offending vehicles. Which way round did he give the vehciles distance firstly. What would he benefit from changing the distance so vastly either as mere witness or even possible suspect (Again, just for this one post, I am looking it at it from his having made this distance discrepancy purposely)

In his first statement given at the scene of the crime, 9 hours or so after the murders, Owen states the cars were about 10 feet apart. He mentions nothing about hearing a shot.

In his second statement three days later, the cars are now 3-4 feet apart, and Owen suddenly remembers hearing a gunshot a 1/4 mile past the scene.

In his first statement given at the scene of the crime, 9 hours or so after the murders, Owen states the cars were about 10 feet apart. He mentions nothing about hearing a shot.

In his second statement three days later, the cars are now 3-4 feet apart, and Owen suddenly remembers hearing a gunshot a 1/4 mile past the scene.

Sure seems like a shot would be the FIRST thing you’d remember.

In his first statement given at the scene of the crime, 9 hours or so after the murders, Owen states the cars were about 10 feet apart. He mentions nothing about hearing a shot.

In his second statement three days later, the cars are now 3-4 feet apart, and Owen suddenly remembers hearing a gunshot a 1/4 mile past the scene.

Sure seems like a shot would be the FIRST thing you’d remember.

I agree! Especially seeing the blood and chalk outlines of the bodies

I would certainly continue to view Owens as a suspect.

As far whether Owens’ statements are true, there is room for doubt. I think he is deceased now, so we will never know, but he should have been investigated more closely during the sloppy work by the SCSD.

Maybe David and Betty were making out in the back seat, thus rendering them invisible to passers-by. Zodiac parks his car near theirs and sneaks up on them. He hears another car come by and ducks. Thus, Owen sees two empty cars with nobody around them.

Just playing devil’s advocate. I do like Owen as Zodiac. All I’m doing is outlining a possible explanation for the ‘two empty cars’ spectacle.

id like to see a photo of Owen circa 69’/70’ish

Nacht, I had a mid ’60’s Rambler Classic in the ’70’s. The Ramblers were unique because they had features that other cars of the time did not have such as a push button automatic transmission that was located on the dashboard to the left of the steering wheel and front seats that reclined. I have felt that David and Betty Lou may have had the front seat reclined and so they were not noticed by someone driving by.

Nacht, I had a mid ’60’s Rambler Classic in the ’70’s. The Ramblers were unique because they had features that other cars of the time did not have such as a push button automatic transmission that was located on the dashboard to the left of the steering wheel and front seats that reclined. I have felt that David and Betty Lou may have had the front seat reclined and so they were not noticed by someone driving by.

But the other witnesses saw the couple.

In his first statement given at the scene of the crime, 9 hours or so after the murders, Owen states the cars were about 10 feet apart. He mentions nothing about hearing a shot.

In his second statement three days later, the cars are now 3-4 feet apart, and Owen suddenly remembers hearing a gunshot a 1/4 mile past the scene.

Failing to instantly recall hearing what sounded like a gun shot when the police, I assume, told him their reasons for asking him are because a young couple were shot and killed at that location, seems unrealistic and not at all plausible because lets say he genuinely did just forget hearing it, when a cop tell’s you he is asking what you saw that night because a couple were shot and killed there, i would have thought that would instantly jog any suppressed or subconscious memory you have of hearing shots fired. A kinda "Ohh, now that you mention people being shot, I do remember hearing…"

In his first statement given at the scene of the crime, 9 hours or so after the murders, Owen states the cars were about 10 feet apart. He mentions nothing about hearing a shot.

In his second statement three days later, the cars are now 3-4 feet apart, and Owen suddenly remembers hearing a gunshot a 1/4 mile past the scene.

Failing to instantly recall hearing what sounded like a gun shot when the police, I assume, told him their reasons for asking him are because a young couple were shot and killed at that location, seems unrealistic and not at all plausible because lets say he genuinely did just forget hearing it, when a cop tell’s you he is asking what you saw that night because a couple were shot and killed there, i would have thought that would instantly jog any suppressed or subconscious memory you have of hearing shots fired. A kinda "Ohh, now that you mention people being shot, I do remember hearing…"

I agree 100%

Trying to think what could account for his 10 ft gap between the two vehicles vs his second amended claim of them being 3 to 4 ft from each other.

If he deliberately changed his story for a practical reason to seem more believable then that suggests he is not telling the truth because if you are what he claims to be, just an innocent passer by witness, you would have no cause to change any part of what you saw because you don’t have any cause or motive to make your account more realistic and believable.
As I’ve stated on other threads, Zodiac may have been on foot out there and laid in wait behind the barrier and fence for his victims, where police just happened to find a footprint in the soft muddy ground as it happens, to come to him knowing the spot was often used as a lovers lane sort of smooching area. I mean Zodiac admitted in his Nov 69 letter that he likes to provide police with fake clues to watch them run around excitedly believing they have made progress so why wouldn’t Zodiac, in the role of innocent witness to his crime, deliberately say he saw A and B when it was really Y and Z? Why not invent a fake 2nd vehicle he knows wasn’t ever there to throw police off and watch them try and find out who the second vehicle’s owner was?

It seems to me that he may have invented seeing a second car pulled in there 10 ft or so away from the Rambler and possibly realised thinking oer what he said that making the 2nd vehicle 10 ft away from the first is not going to fit with his claim of being unable to describe the colour, make and model of the 2nd vehicle but has no problem in seeing and describing the victims vehicle. your not going to sound credible because it isn’t really believable if you say you have no idea what the 2nd car was not even a colour and it’s in clear view as you drive by with plenty of space between each vehicle to see each one as you pass by as nothing obstructs your line of sight to each vehicle where-as… if you make the 2nd vehicle 3 ft away from the first then you can make the quite believable claim that you could not see the 2nd car as you passed by due to the close proximity of the 2nd car to the first which meant the 2nd car was situated behind the Rambler as he passes which does allow you then to suggests you could not see the first vehicle because the Rambler was between you and it as you passed by.

At 4:24 into this video, you can see Owen’s view:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI0jnsbZwys

Also, at 3:40 into the video

I don’t doubt that Owen could see a second car there if there was one, I just am skeptical that there was a second car

At 4:24 into this video, you can see Owen’s view:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI0jnsbZwys

Also, at 3:40 into the video

I don’t doubt that Owen could see a second car there if there was one, I just am skeptical that there was a second car

Me too. I mean I was a tad surprised when it turned out that no other vehicles on LHR, both Police and Civilian, passed the possible suspect, or any vehicles for that matter, on that road. Plus, then there is that footprint in the soil just somewhere around the other side of that barrier. And let’s say Zodiac did turn up and pull in to the same pumping station gate entrance as David & Betty were, got out, opened fire etc, what if as David is slumped beside the Rambler, Betty in the middle of the gate entrance and just then another Vehicle, police or civilian, looks into the area. He’d be cornered with nowhere to go.

See that’s probably why Betty & David didn’t have chance to drive off as they would if Zodiac’s vehicle was pulling in because the Zodiac walked up on the Rambler from behind the fence? Maybe he even got straight into the back seat of the Rambler. If Owen said there was a second vehicle and there wasn’t, why would he lie? What motive would he have? Other than the most obvious one of him being Zodiac or involved in the crime at the very least?

I’ll have a look at the link you posted now.

if we could ever locate an actual crime scene diagrams with accurate measurements using a tape measure or the like we could reconstruct that whole scene today and put an end to 95% of these questions we all have..as it stands its a no go unless such a diagram actually exists…may be it does but what i have seen over the years is useless junk