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Interview with Lake Herman Rd Witness James Owen

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Welsh Chappie
(@welsh-chappie)
Posts: 1538
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I know he knew they’d been murdered, that’s without question. Just wondered if the police had told him when he pulled up at the scene, or when they went back to interview him, that the kids had been slain by being shot. I assumed he knew that they were shot when giving his first interview, but I wondered if it was in a report somewhere that he certainly did know the manner in which they were killed.

I only ask because Owen’s answer of "I didn’t know if it meant anything" is ridiculous if he doesn’t mention this in the first interview when he knew that they had been shot. I wondered if his answer "I didn’t know if it meant anything" is his way of saying "I didn’t know they’d been shot in the first interview, so I didn’t know if it was important to state what I heard."

"So it’s sorta social. Demented and sad, but social, right?" Judd Nelson.

 
Posted : February 11, 2014 6:20 am
morf13
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I actually found the voice file for him. It’s small, not much, only a few words & phrases, I recorded a bunch,but it would only record for a short period and then stop. Its a mp3 file,not sure how to post that here, anybody know?

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : February 11, 2014 6:26 am
morf13
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I know he knew they’d been murdered, that’s without question. Just wondered if the police had told him when he pulled up at the scene, or when they went back to interview him, that the kids had been slain by being shot. I assumed he knew that they were shot when giving his first interview, but I wondered if it was in a report somewhere that he certainly did know the manner in which they were killed.

I only ask because Owen’s answer of "I didn’t know if it meant anything" is ridiculous if he doesn’t mention this in the first interview when he knew that they had been shot. I wondered if his answer "I didn’t know if it meant anything" is his way of saying "I didn’t know they’d been shot in the first interview, so I didn’t know if it was important to state what I heard."

It was known thru the town, and the guys coming in for the morning shift were talking about it,I think there was already an article in the morning paper if I remember correctly. No way he didn’t know they were shot,which is why it is simply not believable to me that he failed to mention the gunshot at that time.

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : February 11, 2014 6:27 am
Welsh Chappie
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Posts: 1538
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I agree. I mean it’s of extreme importance because Owen is claiming to see the second vehicle there that could simply be an innocent vehicle turning around, it’s very unlikely that if the vehicle was there that it’s an innocent motorist turning but the possibility remains, slim as it may be. However, if Owen not only see’s the 2nd vehicle there but hears a shot fired seconds after passing it, then that would almost certainly mean that the 2nd car has to be the offenders because it’s at the scene at the same time as a shot is fired.

Come to think of it, if Owen only reports hearing just the one shot fired, is it the ‘warning shot’ people speculate that Z fired into the rambler, or is it the fatal shot to David’s head that Owen hears? Well it isn’t likely the fatal shot to David’s head Owen hears the sound of, because unless Zodiac physically has Betty restrained somehow at that point, she’s likely going to run straight away after seeing David shot and Owen only ever hears one shot fired. So it must be the warning shot then, the one Z is thought to have fired to force one or both victims out of the Rambler? Well, how can that be? Owen has told us that as he passes by the scene, the two vehicles were there, but none were occupied by anyone, nor did he witness anyone near the vehicles exterior in the vicinity.

The only way that it would make any sense is if the couple, Dave and Betty, were in the rambler as Owen passes but were ordered/forced to duck out of view, and even then there’s still questions in that scenario.

"So it’s sorta social. Demented and sad, but social, right?" Judd Nelson.

 
Posted : February 11, 2014 7:23 am
morf13
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I agree. I mean it’s of extreme importance because Owen is claiming to see the second vehicle there that could simply be an innocent vehicle turning around, it’s very unlikely that if the vehicle was there that it’s an innocent motorist turning but the possibility remains, slim as it may be. However, if Owen not only see’s the 2nd vehicle there but hears a shot fired seconds after passing it, then that would almost certainly mean that the 2nd car has to be the offenders because it’s at the scene at the same time as a shot is fired.

Come to think of it, if Owen only reports hearing just the one shot fired, is it the ‘warning shot’ people speculate that Z fired into the rambler, or is it the fatal shot to David’s head that Owen hears? Well it isn’t likely the fatal shot to David’s head Owen hears the sound of, because unless Zodiac physically has Betty restrained somehow at that point, she’s likely going to run straight away after seeing David shot and Owen only ever hears one shot fired. So it must be the warning shot then, the one Z is thought to have fired to force one or both victims out of the Rambler? Well, how can that be? Owen has told us that as he passes by the scene, the two vehicles were there, but none were occupied by anyone, nor did he witness anyone near the vehicles exterior in the vicinity.

The only way that it would make any sense is if the couple, Dave and Betty, were in the rambler as Owen passes but were ordered/forced to duck out of view, and even then there’s still questions in that scenario.

The whole scenario is hard to add up. Owen passes and sees nobody around the cars,in them etc. A 1/4 milde down the road,he hears a shot. If he’s driving 35-45 mph,he would hear that shot in about 30 seconds I would think. Question is, if z had them both hidden out of site, did he suddenly release them from their hiding spot and start shooting all in 30 seconds? Was there time for that?

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : February 11, 2014 8:52 am
Patinky
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I don’t know how fast Owen was driving but at 60 mph (standard speed limit in my state back then) that works out to 15 seconds for the quarter mile and 15 seconds to release and shoot the two victims. That seems like enough time imo. Here’s a dollar for the coffee to go with my opinion. :D

Thanks for the replies about his voice and demeanor. The transcript may sound more ominous than did the actual call.

When in doubt, don’t.

 
Posted : February 11, 2014 9:51 am
Welsh Chappie
(@welsh-chappie)
Posts: 1538
Noble Member
 

I agree. I mean it’s of extreme importance because Owen is claiming to see the second vehicle there that could simply be an innocent vehicle turning around, it’s very unlikely that if the vehicle was there that it’s an innocent motorist turning but the possibility remains, slim as it may be. However, if Owen not only see’s the 2nd vehicle there but hears a shot fired seconds after passing it, then that would almost certainly mean that the 2nd car has to be the offenders because it’s at the scene at the same time as a shot is fired.

Come to think of it, if Owen only reports hearing just the one shot fired, is it the ‘warning shot’ people speculate that Z fired into the rambler, or is it the fatal shot to David’s head that Owen hears? Well it isn’t likely the fatal shot to David’s head Owen hears the sound of, because unless Zodiac physically has Betty restrained somehow at that point, she’s likely going to run straight away after seeing David shot and Owen only ever hears one shot fired. So it must be the warning shot then, the one Z is thought to have fired to force one or both victims out of the Rambler? Well, how can that be? Owen has told us that as he passes by the scene, the two vehicles were there, but none were occupied by anyone, nor did he witness anyone near the vehicles exterior in the vicinity.

The only way that it would make any sense is if the couple, Dave and Betty, were in the rambler as Owen passes but were ordered/forced to duck out of view, and even then there’s still questions in that scenario.

The whole scenario is hard to add up. Owen passes and sees nobody around the cars,in them etc. A 1/4 milde down the road,he hears a shot. If he’s driving 35-45 mph,he would hear that shot in about 30 seconds I would think. Question is, if Z had them both hidden out of site, did he suddenly release them from their hiding spot and start shooting all in 30 seconds? Was there time for that?

Well it’s unlikely that Z is forced into opening fire due to David and/or Betty deciding to make a run for it. If they were ever going to try escaping, then the obvious time to try it would be just as they see Owen’s headlights approaching so one or both can stand in the middle of Lake Herman Road itself and force the oncoming traffic to a stop for help.

And if the shot Owen hears is the bullet that executes David, then how come he doesn’t report hearing several shots seconds after it? If David is shot first and this, as it’s commonly believed, is when Betty makes a break for freedom, then surely Owen must hear at least 5 more shots?

This next part is going slightly off topic of conversation I know, and I apologise in advance but….

I think it’s likely that Zodiac may have used a similar ruse at Lake Herman as we know he did at Lake Berryessa. He may have told them something like he told Hartnell: "Calm down, all I want is your Car and Money. I’m an escapee and need to get to Mexico" etc. However, Faraday had injuries to his jaw that are consistent with being punched, or impacted in the jaw by a relatively heavy blow. I think Faraday may have made a grab for Z’s arm to disable the gun and a struggle may have ensued that saw Z hit Dave with his free arm before overpowering him and shooting him once in the head. I like to think that’s why David had more injuries, because he fought for his, and Betty’s lives. The next attack at BRS Zodiac wastes no time in making sure the Male threat is disabled instantly by firing at Mike’s head without saying a thing. Then at Lake B, Bryan says Z stayed at a safe distance until Cecelia had restrained him, and at one point Bryan recalls "I mentioned to her that I thought maybe I could get the gun, and she said ‘Oh no, don’t do that’ and with that, he (Z) stepped back and I never had another chance after that."

"So it’s sorta social. Demented and sad, but social, right?" Judd Nelson.

 
Posted : February 11, 2014 10:47 am
morf13
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Here’s what doesnt add up. The police think the first shot is a warning shot. The evidence in the roof of Dave’s car may back that up. A warning shot to get them out of the car, yet seconds earlier,they were not visible in the car in order to force them out. For that scenario to happen, both Zodiac & the victims needed to be laying down in their seats. Z would have hd to lept out of his car immediately, ran up to the car and started shooting. Seems a bit unbelievable. A car just went by seconds ago,Z is not the least bit nervous? He still chooses to jump out within seconds of Owen passing,and start shooting? It’s hard to swallow the entire scenario as laid out by Owen, it doesn’t really line up with the evidence, or the police theory of how things went down.

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : February 11, 2014 6:14 pm
morf13
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Topic starter
 

I don’t know how fast Owen was driving but at 60 mph (standard speed limit in my state back then) that works out to 15 seconds for the quarter mile and 15 seconds to release and shoot the two victims. That seems like enough time imo. Here’s a dollar for the coffee to go with my opinion. :D

Thanks for the replies about his voice and demeanor. The transcript may sound more ominous than did the actual call.

I think I remember someplace reading that he was driving 35mph, or close to that. If so, it may take 25 seconds to hear the shot once he passes,but someplace in that range 15-25 seconds

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : February 11, 2014 6:16 pm
Patinky
(@patinky)
Posts: 196
Estimable Member
 

I don’t know how fast Owen was driving but at 60 mph (standard speed limit in my state back then) that works out to 15 seconds for the quarter mile and 15 seconds to release and shoot the two victims. That seems like enough time imo. Here’s a dollar for the coffee to go with my opinion. :D

Thanks for the replies about his voice and demeanor. The transcript may sound more ominous than did the actual call.

I think I remember someplace reading that he was driving 35mph, or close to that. If so, it may take 25 seconds to hear the shot once he passes,but someplace in that range 15-25 seconds

That seems like enough time to me but who knows.

When in doubt, don’t.

 
Posted : February 11, 2014 8:01 pm
(@anonymous)
Posts: 1772
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It would be interesting to see a computer recreation of the events that night as eyewitnesses report them.
Mr. Owens seems too old for the guy that Mike Mageau saw shooting he and Dee at Blue Rock Springs.
Have we not conclusively tied the Lake Herman Road Killer to the Blue Rock Springs Killer?
Please opine…

 
Posted : February 11, 2014 9:23 pm
morf13
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Posts: 7527
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Topic starter
 

It would be interesting to see a computer recreation of the events that night as eyewitnesses report them.
Mr. Owens seems too old for the guy that Mike Mageau saw shooting he and Dee at Blue Rock Springs.
Have we not conclusively tied the Lake Herman Road Killer to the Blue Rock Springs Killer?
Please opine…

I agree, Mike described a different kind of guy,but then again, Mike had a flashlight shining in his eyes, so how much confidence can we have in his description? The best description is from the kids at Wash & Cherry. I don’t know what Owen looked like in 1969

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : February 11, 2014 10:51 pm
(@quagmire)
Posts: 208
Estimable Member
 

I agree that the kids’ description is probably the best. However, this means that I don’t think we can ignore Mageau’s description as although we can say he had a light shone at him, he still managed to give virtually the same description as the kids did some months later.

For him to guess it was a well-built white guy in his mid to late twenties with light brownish hair and about 5’8"ish tall is pretty remarkably similar. If that was the only description we had then it would deserve to be treated with some doubt but the kids’ descriptions seem to vindicate what he said (minus a shorter haircut and a pair of specs).

 
Posted : February 12, 2014 3:29 am
Welsh Chappie
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Posts: 1538
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Well here’s the thing, I’d agree that Mikes description should be treated with scepticism because, as Morf said, he’d has a flashlight shined directly into his eyes and has been shot multiple times before he ‘sees’ the shooter, and sees him from a side on view only. Mike’s description of a thick set guy with short dark wavy hair and a round face is consistent with the attacker that turns up at Berryessa. Mike described the guy as in his twenties, yet the three girls at Berryessa who see the suspicious man hanging around watching them shortly before Bryan & Cecelia are attacked describe the man as thick set, good looking and with a round face and in his 40’s. That description is absolutely consistent with Mikes, rite down to the ’round face’, all except for the age range. We know that two weeks later, in Pacific Heights, Don Fouke, who gets an unobstructed look at Zodiac from a front face on view point, described him as medium to heavy build, crew cut and between 35 and 45 years of age. If the guy that the girls at Lake B saw was Zodiac, and it seems likely because one of them even mentioned the exact same ‘Round face’ as Mike Mageau did, then I would probably lean toward Mike being off or mistaken in regards to the approx. age of the man that shot him.

"So it’s sorta social. Demented and sad, but social, right?" Judd Nelson.

 
Posted : February 13, 2014 7:16 pm
(@quagmire)
Posts: 208
Estimable Member
 

The girls at LB said the guy they saw was about 28-30. Pretty much exactly the same as Mageau, the kids at Presdio Heights and Kathleen Johns (if indeed it was Z she encountered). Fouke’s the only one that said 35-45.

 
Posted : February 14, 2014 3:28 am
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