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Lake Herman Rd Timeline

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morf13
(@morf13)
Posts: 7527
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I have been working on a Lake Herman Rd Timeline,with specific attention paid to the Hunters, James Owen, and Stella Borges, as these are the most important witnesses, please feel free to disagree, or comment on it:

Lake Herman Rd Timeline- As taken from the Reports

The timeline of events for 12/20/68 on Lake Herman Rd is an interesting one, and includes some questionable details. One thing is sure, for being a dark, cold night on a quiet, lonely road, there seem to have been a good amount of witnesses and cars at and around the crime scene.
An examination of the timeline is in order, but I will not attempt to ‘discredit’ ANY of the witnesses, but will merely point out the approximate established times as taken from the reports, as well as details included therein.
The first, and perhaps most interesting witness, was William Crow.

WILLIAM CROW-
At aprox 9:30 to 10:00, Crow and his Girlfriend claim that they were parked on that very spot where Faraday & Jensen would be murdered a little over an hour later. There were no other cars parked there. Crow claims that while parked at the spot checking out his girlfriend’s new car, a blue car, possibly a Valient, passed them coming from Benicia to Vallejo, and then suddenly stopped in the road and started to back up. Crow, sensing danger, quickly pulled out, and the other car followed them at a high speed before Crow was able to quickly turn off, losing the blue car behind them. The car that chased Crow apparently contained two white males.

PEGGY & HOMER YOUR-
At aprox 11:00 pm, Mr & Mrs Your passed the crime scene while out checking pipes for her Husband’s job. As they passed the pump station(the turnout), they saw Faraday’s Rambler, with a ‘boy’ sitting in the driver’s seat, with the ‘girl’ resting on his shoulder, certainly based on what she witnessed, there was no sign of foul play at 11:00pm, just a young couple parked in a quiet area enjoying their time together. Mrs Your went into detail even stating that when her headlights his Dave’s car, Dave put his hands on the steering wheel. It’s obvious that she is providing great detail here, and while Grant would have you believe that the kids were kidnapped earlier, and that Mrs Your was lying, or making these details up, there is ZERO evidence to support Grant’s ‘theory’. The Yours went down the road a ways, then turned around and worked their way back, and again saw the Victims and their car a couple minutes later, still in the same previous positions. The car was facing “EAST TOWARDS THE FIELD, LEFT OF THE GATE”.
When the yours turned around at the Marshall Ranch, they noticed the raccoon hunter’s red truck. (Connelly & Gasser), and “at this time, the car was NOW FACING OUT TO THE ROAD”, and that there were “TWO WHITE MALES IN THE CAR”. There’s a bit of confusion here, because the report mentions “TWO MEN IN THE CAR”, which should read as, “IN THE TRUCK”. And also, it’s not clear from the report, but is likely to be assumed, that the car that was “NOW FACING OUT TO THE ROAD” was Faraday’s, and that the “TWO MEN IN THE CAR” were actually the two hunters in the truck. In a later report about 3 months after the incident, Mrs Your continues to say that she saw the two victims in the Rambler, and again mentions that when their headlights shined on the young Caucasian couple, consisting of a boy, and a girl, the boy adjusted himself, moving in his seat. She also once again details the hunters, and their clothing. Nothing changes in her description of the scene or the cars. She estimates that she encountered the hunters and saw the Rambler at about 11:15-11:18pm. Mr. Your describes the same details, and estimated that they were at the scene between 11:00 & 11:20pm. (The Yours clock was found to be off by____minutes).
THE HUNTERS(FRANK GASSER & ROBERT CONNELLY)-
First statement to police on 12/21/68, The hunters claim they hunted until 11:00pm or so, and they noted the time as Connelly had looked at his watch. Time was approximate, and could have been 10:50 or 10:55pm. They stated that it took them about 3-5 minutes to walk to their truck. In his 2nd statement to police, Connelly stated it may have taken up to 10 minutes to walk back to the truck. Connelly stated that they arrived at the truck, and were there about 5 minutes when a car came in and turned around. This car belonged to the Yours. After the Yours turned around, the hunters sat there about another 5 minutes, and then drove off. Connelly estimated that they left the area between 11:05 & 11:15pm.
If we assume that the hunters started walking back to their truck at Connelly’s earliest estimated time of 10:50pm, and it took them 3-10 minutes to get to their truck, they arrived at the truck about 10:53 to 11:00pm. They sat there until approximately 10:58 to 11:05pm, at which time they saw the Yours turn around. They then sat there another 5 minutes or so, until approximately 11:03 to 11:12, before they left.

JAMES OWEN-
James Owen estimated that he passed the scene at 11:20pm. Owen estimated that he left his home in Vallejo for work at Humble Oil at about 11pm, heading towards Benicia. Police determined that Owen’s clock was 6 minutes fast, and that he really would have left at about 10:54pm putting him on the scene at about 11:14. In fact, 11:14 appears on one of the sketches, and the sketch shows Owen’s car passing the scene, and shows Faraday’s car in it’s spot, with a 2nd mystery car parked to the right of it, which is what Owen claims he saw as he went by. Owen’s account may perhaps be more important than any other witnesses, as he is the last person to see the Victim’s car prior to it being found at aprox 11:20pm by Stella Borges, along with it’s two occupants, dead on the road beside it. In short, police think that Zodiac killed the two victims between 11:14pm, and 11:20pm, when Borges found the bodies. Also of note, Owen states that he saw no people in the cars, or anywhere around them, which would include two dead bodies on the ground. Police stated that “it takes 19 minutes to travel the distance from his home to the crime scene”, which again, puts him there at 11:14pm.

STELLA BORGES-
Stella Borges is the person that found the two victim’s dead, and she is the first person known to be at the crime scene following the last person to pass the scene before the couple was killed.(Owen)
Between Owen, and Borges, their accounts would lead the police to believe there was a tight 6 minute window for zodiac to strike. Borges states that she looked at the clock in her house, and it was 11:10pm. She then left the house driving ‘casually’ over the 2.7 miles until she reached the crime scene. She estimates that she arrived at the scene, 4-5 minutes later, which would be about 11:14-11:15pm. Keep in mind, Owen is placed there at 11:14pm up to this point. Now for something crucial- police checked her clock, and found it to be one minute fast, meaning that she likely would really be there at 11:13-11:14. Well, obviously, this is a huge glaring problem, Owen there at 11:14 seeing two cars and no people or bodies, and Borges being there at 11:13-11:14 and seeing one car and two bodies. Obviously, both of the established times for Owen and Borges can’t be correct. What happened? Borges drove off immediately at speeds of 60-70mph towards Benicia to get help, where she eventually ran into Benicia Police Officer Pitta. From Pitta’s report, he notes that Borges flagged him down at aprox 11:25pm. Pitta then raced to the scene arriving there at about 11:28pm. This is apparently how they established that Borges took 5 minutes to find and make contact with Pitta. They now think that Borges was actually at the scene at 11:20, hence the 6 minute window for zodiac to strike. The police report mentions “the distance was 3.4 miles” from where she found the cops, and the murder scene, and “possibly took her 5 minutes to drive”.

One thing police did correct was to verify the accuracy of the clocks of the people on Lake Herman Rd that night. Some were found to be off, and police adjusted the times in their statements. It does not appear in the police reports, but James Owen told me that the police had him drive his route from that night while they accompanied him, and if memory serves, they had him do that more than once. Although the police did some things right, there are also some major issues with their investigation. For example, they allowed James Owen to question a potential witness, a co-worker of his, to see if he had driven by the crime scene the night of the murders. In addition, police asked Owen to hand over two rifles that he owned for ballistics testing, but later when they found out a rifle was not used, they never asked him for his handguns for testing. According to Owen, they also never asked him for prints, or writing samples. For these reasons, and the fact Owen is the last person confirmed to be at the crime scene before Borges found the bodies a few minutes later, he has become my favorite suspect. Owen was the only person at the scene that night without a witness to verify his statements, or provide an alibi for him. He had multiple inconsistencies in his statements to police. In one account he mentioned that the mystery car parked next to the Rambler was 3-4 feet away from the Rambler, and in the other statement, it was 10 feet. The biggest discrepancy of all, was that 9 hours after the crime on 12/21, Owen was giving a statement at the scene of the double murder, likely with chalk outlines on the ground, yet he failed to mention hearing any shots 9 hours before when he passed the scene, yet 3 days later on the 24th, Owen suddenly mentions that he heard a shot after he passed the scene, about a quarter mile up the road. Personally, I find it highly unusual that a witness would leave out a detail like that only 9 hours after the crime when it was fresh in his mind, especially a retired military guy like him who you would expect to be more detail oriented.

Whether or not Owen was Zodiac, can be debated, the point is, the window for Zodiac to get in and out unseen, is very tight. Between the hunters leaving and Borges finding the bodies, was likely about 10 minutes. Owen is the only one confirmed to be there in between. The time between Owen passing, and Borges finding the bodies, is really tight, 6 minutes according to police, but it could be as little as 3-4 minutes.

The latest time Connelly the hunter thinks they left would be 11:12. Owen was there at 11:14. Borges found the bodies at about 11:20. If Connelly’s and Owen’s times are correct, then Zodiac only had 2 minutes to arrive by some miracle in between 11:12 & 11:14 pm. That would be pretty miraculous. Also, it’s quite amazing that the crime wasn’t taking place when Owen or Borges arrived at the scene. Due to how tight the timeframe is, I think it’s entirely possible that Owen was Zodiac based on the timeframe, and the things I previously mentioned above about Owen. It simply would take the greatest luck for Zodiac to slip in to the scene without being seen just prior to Owen arriving, and slip out just before Borges finding the bodies, and Owen happens to be there at that time. He should have been properly ruled out as a suspect.

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : December 26, 2013 8:37 pm
xEnigm4x
(@xenigm4x)
Posts: 143
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Great write up Morf and I agree wholeheartedly. While he may or may not be "Z"…he is definitely my POI in this particular case!

HMPF PF HMZ ΦXℲPGƎ FԀZG/POR!

 
Posted : December 26, 2013 8:51 pm
(@anonymous)
Posts: 1772
Noble Member
 

I am having trouble with all of this. the Hunters story is not entirely correct. Did the Yours see two men in a vehicle?
I thought some young white man was standing there holding a long nosed pistol when the Yours pulled through. Who was he?
Was he one of the two men in the vehicle or someone additional? Who left first the Yours or the Hunters? I thought the Yours
left first, which would put the Hunters leaving later then they said. Why did the young man brandish the gun at the Yours?
What kind of weapon was used in the murders? Was it a pistol or a rifle, I see both in the Police reports. If it was a rifle, and you have guys
already out in the field shooting…what if those Hunters were covering for somebody. Who was that young man willing to shoot
that night and why?

 
Posted : December 31, 2013 9:37 pm
Paul_Averly
(@paul_averly)
Posts: 857
Prominent Member
 

And what was this "activity up there" the hunters referred to? Are they trying to say or cover for the shooting taking place while they were still in the area?

http://www.zodiackiller.com/LHRPR23.html

 
Posted : January 2, 2014 9:31 am
BuckwheatFlowers
(@buckwheatflowers)
Posts: 172
Estimable Member
 

And what was this "activity up there" the hunters referred to? Are they trying to say or cover for the shooting taking place while they were still in the area?

http://www.zodiackiller.com/LHRPR23.html

Possibly. Or it could be the William Crow ordeal.

Sounds like a good name for a band….. The William Crow Ordeal.

 
Posted : January 2, 2014 5:08 pm
BuckwheatFlowers
(@buckwheatflowers)
Posts: 172
Estimable Member
 

The hunters claim they hunted until 11:00pm or so, and they noted the time as Connelly had looked at his watch. Time was approximate, and could have been 10:50 or 10:55pm.

This part irritates me. What freaking time was it when you looked at your watch Bobby? Don’t try to figure out the time based on what happened….. what time was it when you looked at your watch? Geesh.

/mini-rant

 
Posted : January 2, 2014 5:23 pm
(@anonymous)
Posts: 1772
Noble Member
 

It’s really amazing that we have four different eyewitnesses/groups of people at the crime scene right near the time
of the murders, two groups of which have guns. We virtually have everyone saying they were there at 11:15 with
various stories. The only legit one so far is Stella Borges who drives by and sees dead bodies and no other car. The Police
are summoned and return to the scene at 11:28pm.

 
Posted : January 2, 2014 10:04 pm
morf13
(@morf13)
Posts: 7527
Member Admin
Topic starter
 

It’s really amazing that we have four different eyewitnesses/groups of people at the crime scene right near the time
of the murders, two groups of which have guns. We virtually have everyone saying they were there at 11:15 with
various stories. The only legit one so far is Stella Borges who drives by and sees dead bodies and no other car. The Police
are summoned and return to the scene at 11:28pm.

Borges actually made contact with them at 11:25, they got back to the scene at 11:28

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : January 2, 2014 10:18 pm
(@anonymous)
Posts: 1772
Noble Member
 

Correct…Police return to the scene at 11:28 so let’s work backwards, how long does it take to drive to where Police are from the crime
scene, have a conversation, and for the Police to drive back there?

 
Posted : January 2, 2014 10:38 pm
morf13
(@morf13)
Posts: 7527
Member Admin
Topic starter
 

Correct…Police return to the scene at 11:28 so let’s work backwards, how long does it take to drive to where Police are from the crime
scene, have a conversation, and for the Police to drive back there?

They estimated that she found the bodies at 11:20,and that it took her 5 minutes to track them down. Here’s what is not clear, once Borges found the bodies,and told them what she found, did she give them directions,or go with them back to the scene leading the way? My thinking is that,if police mad it back to the crime scene at a high speed in 3 minutes, then it’s possible, Borges may not have driven as fast as them,maybe that’s why they said it likely took her 5 minutes to drive it. But we also may ned to account for her taking the time to look around and try and spot a police officer/police car, etc. I mean, did she just suddenly find them,or did she have to look a little? If she did,then maybe she really was at the crime scene at 11:17 or 11:18,and now she is getting much closer to being there on top of Zodiac in the middle of his attack,barely missing him,and Owen had just left too. Makes things even tighter.

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : January 2, 2014 11:23 pm
(@thesingingdetective)
Posts: 41
Eminent Member
 

Not to trivialize the tragic ending to that night out there by the the lake,
but the LHR scenario sure had a cast of characters. :shock:

 
Posted : November 15, 2014 1:56 am
morf13
(@morf13)
Posts: 7527
Member Admin
Topic starter
 

Not to trivialize the tragic ending to that night out there by the the lake,
but the LHR scenario sure had a cast of characters. :shock:

For being a quiet, seldom traveled road, there sure was a lot of people out there that night, wasn’t there?

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : November 15, 2014 6:17 pm
(@avidsleuth1)
Posts: 11
Active Member
 

Its very odd the LE get stellas house distance wrong"convinietly she was there earlier than 1120 to have pitta at CS by 1128.

 
Posted : July 28, 2015 2:11 am
(@avidsleuth1)
Posts: 11
Active Member
 

The fast clocks of hunters and yours and peggy give Z his slim timeline also otherwise that means again maybe more was seen imo

 
Posted : July 28, 2015 2:18 am
Norse
(@norse)
Posts: 1764
Noble Member
 

There simply isn’t an established timeline based on incontrovertible facts.

That works both ways, one could say. Or – to put it differently – it works any way you want it to work.

What Z did seems incredibly risky. That’s conspicuous, one could say. But the fact is that what he did at BRS was risky too. What he did at PH was incredibly risky, far riskier than having Paul Stine take him to some abandoned area or other. The risk factor is present for all known crimes – it was part of the game for him, it would seem.

His targets are easy ones, but the crimes are inherently risky nevertheless, in terms of where he strikes and what measures he takes to avoid possible witnesses.

 
Posted : July 29, 2015 5:12 pm
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