Morf – If Owen is being truthful. Which I believe you question.

Even if Owen wasn’t telling the trurth or was mistaken about the time. There is plenty of room for the Z car to not only back out, but he could make a turn and pull out without running over either body.
I noticed in the picture you took of where you thought David had parked, that you were parked about 5 feet from the metal railing ? I am pretty sure David was very close to that railing. I would be willing to meet you there and check out just how much room there is with two cars there , we could put blankets in place of where the body’s were and I will show you how it could have been done without a problem. I am not trying to say you are wrong and I am right, I have been there with others who had the crime scene drawing, so I could see just how much room there really was for the z car to pull out.

I Really can’t see why people have such difficulty with the possibility that Zodiac was out on Lake Herman Rd on foot? There are several points to note if Z was in a vehicle that night:

1. Parking there in that space would leave Zodiac and his vehicle completely exposed to any passers by both in his vehicle being identified as well as possibility of being seen in the act of shooting David and/or Betty.

2. Escape via vehicle on such a dark, desolate and quiet country lane road would see any vehicle stand out and would be so easy to detect.

3. Assuming the common assumption is correct and Zodiac fired one shot into the Rambler, why didn’t David pull away that instant?

4. Zodiac murdered Paul Stine in the middle or an affluent neighbourhood on a street corner at 10pm, then walked off down the street heading, as many believe, for the dark and open expanse of the Prisidio Grounds on foot. Yet it’s illogical to believe he did similar on Lake Herman Rd?

5. Zodiac doesn’t phone the crime in and alert them to Stine’s murder as he had done with his two previous attacks. When we know Zodiac was driving, ie, Blue Rock & Lake B, he phoned to report his own handiwork. Yet, in Presidio Heights he was on foot, and no call was made by him. Nor did he phone it in after the Lake Herman attack.

6. Even though the ground was reported frozen that night, this area is a gravel parking area and no tyre tracks were found from a second vehicle.

7. No witnesses, nor responding Police Officers, recall passing a vehicle heading away from the scene as they were making their way toward the scene.

I don’t know why the report claims frozen ground was a factor in not leaving trye impressions behind because this pic seems to suggest otherwise…

Welsh,The isssue about Z being there on foot is that it clashes with what Owen saw. From the time Owen went by to when Borges found the bodies is max of 6 minutes. The car sitting next to Dave almost certainly had to be Zodiac’s,since Owen claiims he heard a shot about a quarter mile down the road,which was a max of what, 30 seconds? The shooting started while that car was sitting next to Dave’s,thats why zodiac on foot is highly unlikely

Welsh,The isssue about Z being there on foot is that it clashes with what Owen saw. From the time Owen went by to when Borges found the bodies is max of 6 minutes. The car sitting next to Dave almost certainly had to be Zodiac’s,since Owen claiims he heard a shot about a quarter mile down the road,which was a max of what, 30 seconds? The shooting started while that car was sitting next to Dave’s,thats why zodiac on foot is highly unlikely

"Welsh,The isssue about Z being there on foot is that it clashes with what Owen saw."

Well we’ve discussed it before and Owen doesn’t seem to know what he saw and where it was in relation to a second vehicle. Owen can clearly recall that there were two vehicles. He also is able to observe, and recall, that one of these vehicles was "a 1955 or 56 Station Waggon, the boxy type, and neutral in colour." Very good observation skills on Mr Owen’s part, as well as memory recollection. And what was his description of this 2nd vehicle that nobody else saw either parked there or on Lake Herman Itself? Cannot give a make, model, colour, or even general description! Bit convenient. But, James may not have been able to see any features or shape f the second vehicle, but at least he is sure he knows where it was when he saw this mysterious vehicle except for the bit where he clearly doesn’t seem to know. One minute it 3 ft away from Dave’s Rambler, then it’s jumped to 10 ft away!

So for me, he can describe and remember the detail of the vehicle we all know without question was there, but the second one and a description? Didn’t see the make, model, colour or any details that would be of use. I’m not surprised nobody else saw Zodiac escaping as his vehicle seems to teleport from point A to Point B.
In all seriousness though Morf, I just don’t believe him and his account of a second vehicle. Other witnesses drove past within minutes of Owen and none report seeing a second vehicle there and maybe more importantly, not passing one as they approached the scene on Lake Herman either.

Welsh,The isssue about Z being there on foot is that it clashes with what Owen saw. From the time Owen went by to when Borges found the bodies is max of 6 minutes. The car sitting next to Dave almost certainly had to be Zodiac’s,since Owen claiims he heard a shot about a quarter mile down the road,which was a max of what, 30 seconds? The shooting started while that car was sitting next to Dave’s,thats why zodiac on foot is highly unlikely

"Welsh,The isssue about Z being there on foot is that it clashes with what Owen saw."

Well we’ve discussed it before and Owen doesn’t seem to know what he saw and where it was in relation to a second vehicle. Owen can clearly recall that there were two vehicles. He also is able to observe, and recall, that one of these vehicles was "a 1955 or 56 Station Waggon, the boxy type, and neutral in colour." Very good observation skills on Mr Owen’s part, as well as memory recollection. And what was his description of this 2nd vehicle that nobody else saw either parked there or on Lake Herman Itself? Cannot give a make, model, colour, or even general description! Bit convenient. But, James may not have been able to see any features or shape f the second vehicle, but at least he is sure he knows where it was when he saw this mysterious vehicle except for the bit where he clearly doesn’t seem to know. One minute it 3 ft away from Dave’s Rambler, then it’s jumped to 10 ft away!

So for me, he can describe and remember the detail of the vehicle we all know without question was there, but the second one and a description? Didn’t see the make, model, colour or any details that would be of use. I’m not surprised nobody else saw Zodiac escaping as his vehicle seems to teleport from point A to Point B.
In all seriousness though Morf, I just don’t believe him and his account of a second vehicle. Other witnesses drove past within minutes of Owen and none report seeing a second vehicle there and maybe more importantly, not passing one as they approached the scene on Lake Herman either.

It does make one wonder if this is a case of someone wanting to be more "in the know" than they actually were.

He mentions nothing of passing another car going in the opposite direction of him and nothing of hearing a shot until a few days later. Seems like he would have heard more than one shot too.

If Owen was lying about any part of what he witnessed, there are no good reasons for him to be doing that.

Morf – If Owen is being truthful. Which I believe you question.

Even if Owen wasn’t telling the trurth or was mistaken about the time. There is plenty of room for the Z car to not only back out, but he could make a turn and pull out without running over either body.
I noticed in the picture you took of where you thought David had parked, that you were parked about 5 feet from the metal railing ? I am pretty sure David was very close to that railing. I would be willing to meet you there and check out just how much room there is with two cars there , we could put blankets in place of where the body’s were and I will show you how it could have been done without a problem. I am not trying to say you are wrong and I am right, I have been there with others who had the crime scene drawing, so I could see just how much room there really was for the z car to pull out.

"Plenty of room" not where the body was. Can it be done in the dark? Probably, but it’s a tight fit. As for where my car is parked. We accounted for the fact that David’s car is about three feet longer. If you put Zodiacs car 10 feet apart and put her body where it was its a tight and awkward turn to back up and turn. It’s all about the placement of the vehicle and the body. Trust me it’s extremely awkward and fir it to be done at night and in a hurry.

If Owen was lying about any part of what he witnessed, there are no good reasons for him to be doing that.

How can you be so sure he had no good reason to lie? He may have felt when being questioned by police that he was being suspected of being responsible and on the spur of the moment made up the story of seeing a second vehicle there.
Not everyone needs motive or reason to lie, not motives that make sense to the rest of us anyway. Some people lie just for the sake of it, or for sensationalism etc. Then there are the compulsive liars who lie for reasons the rest of us don’t understand, almost as if it’s a personality trait. Maybe Owen felt like he was under suspicion and though if he gave them the second car story he’d go from being a POI to those that were questioning him, to a very important eye witness. Who knows.

If Owen was lying about any part of what he witnessed, there are no good reasons for him to be doing that.

How can you be so sure he had no good reason to lie?

Are you being serious? Anybody that comes along in a murder case as a witness, and gives details and account of what they saw, and is knowingly lying or providing false information, is doing a disservice to the case, and is breaking the law. There would be NO GOOD REASON FOR OWEN TO LIE, the worst case is,he is lying because he was zodiac. Sometimes, I think you just like to argue stupid points

Eyewitness testimony is notoriously flawed. There could be reasons for Mr. Owens to lie, including that he might be the killer.
He was driving past in the dark, what did he see? This timeline is extremely tight here, let us review it minute by minute again.
Why didn’t Stella Borges see a car pass by her, what direction was James Owen driving? We are allowing for Zodiac to drive in
at 11:10? 11:12 ? Get out of his car, shoot two people repeatedly, get back in his car and pull out of there in two minutes? How many minutes?
Someone is not telling the truth here, because it just doesn’t add up.

Owen was moving the same direction as Borges,Vallejo TO Benicia. By both of their accounts, Owen & Borges thought they were at the secne at about the same time. After checking clocks, using the time Borges made contact with Benicia PD,etc, the police think that Owen & Borges were there 6 minutes apart,I believe it may have been 3-4 minutes apart,but obviously, they had to be there at two different times since owen claims he saw zero bodies, and Borges immediately saw the bodies on the ground. I still maintain that if owen is lying for ANY reason, that’s a major issue.

If Owen was lying about any part of what he witnessed, there are no good reasons for him to be doing that.

How can you be so sure he had no good reason to lie?

Are you being serious? Anybody that comes along in a murder case as a witness, and gives details and account of what they saw, and is knowingly lying or providing false information, is doing a disservice to the case, and is breaking the law. There would be NO GOOD REASON FOR OWEN TO LIE, the worst case is,he is lying because he was zodiac. Sometimes, I think you just like to argue stupid points

No Morf it’s not arguing anything, it’s called stating an opinion. If you think that questioning a witness’s claims because his own claim is inconsistent and contradictory is a ‘stupid point to argue’ then I don’t think you quite see the irony in what your saying. There were many vehicles that passed the pumping station entrance that night and every single one of them that was interviewed stated that they saw only one vehicle there. Owen himself states that as he approached the area where he saw two vehicles, a vehicle passed him going in the opposite direction. So, that vehicle would certainly have passed there within seconds of Owen and should have seen two vehicles also. Does this other vehicles driver come forward? No. Nor does anyone ever report seeing a second vehicle in the turn in area itself, or even on Lake Herman Road. Should we just believe him and ignore the fact that what he says in not supported or corroborated by any other witness that night? You can state all you want Morf that " There would be NO GOOD REASON FOR OWEN TO LIE." You say that as if you know, when you simply can’t know if he had motive to lie, and what that motive may have been. So, am I being serious? Yes. He is at odds with every other witness who only saw one vehicle, and claims there were two. But in this very claim, he is contradictory as to just where this second vehicle was and seems to say it was in two different places in two different statements all the while not being able to give one single detail of the car, yet he describes in detail David’s rambler. And from his own mouth, he claims another vehicle passed at the time the two vehicles were parked at the pumping station as he drove past it shortly before arriving at the scene himself and yet does this other driver come forward and support Owen’s claim? No, ‘he/she’ doesn’t even come forward! But of coure, it’s stupid to question the truth of a claim when that claim is full of contradiction and vague and unreasonable comments ("Ohh yes, that’s right, I now remember hearing a gun shot shortly after passing the turn in area.") as well as his claim not being supported by one single witness and is, in fact, at odds with them and this is despite he himself saying that another vehicle passed at roughly the same time!

Everything had to line up petectly for the Zodiac to have been there in a car. But for him to have been on foot it would have been very simple and timing is no longer an issue. And maybe the reason there was a single casing found 20ft away is because that’s where he hoped the fence or gate and took his first shot. Just a thought.

Everything had to line up petectly for the Zodiac to have been there in a car. But for him to have been on foot it would have been very simple and timing is no longer an issue. And maybe the reason there was a single casing found 20ft away is because that’s where he hoped the fence or gate and took his first shot. Just a thought.

10 casings were found ,9 on the ground one in the car. If the car that Owen’s said had passed him, was coming from Benica, then it would be very hard for that car to see anything on that side of the road. Even in the day time ,coming from that direction you can miss that spot. A very different view when you are coming from Vallejo towards Benicia, because of the bend in the road. So it is no wonder that if that other car that passed Owen was coming from Benicia , that person had nothing to report because they didn’t see anything.
I think that if If Owen was lying , he would have made up a make and model of the second car. I was there a week ago ,there were many cars on that road , yet I can’t recall the make or colors of any of them.
It might be that the color of David’s car being white stood out for Owen to remember it, the other car could have been a darker color that sort of blended in with the darkness of night ? Eye witness’s are not always the best, that is a proven fact. I think that if Zodiac parked his car down that very narrow road , it would have drawn a lot of attention, because the other cars would have to drive around it . I just don’t see that as an option at all.
If Zodiac’s car was closer to where Betty Lou’s body was, it would have been well hidden from the cars coming from Vallejo or Benicia, unless people looked over towards that area. Her body was 28 and a half feet from David’s car rear bumper. Zodiac’s car could have been with in that 28 feet, plenty of room to back out turn around, then drive back towards Syar or Vallejo. I have noticed that most of you are thinking Zodiac had to be driving towards Benicia after the shooting , he could have gone in the other direction where there was not as much traffic on Lake Herman rd. Back towards the same area he went to after shooting Darlene and Mike.I still believe Zodiac was living in Vallejo at that time and could still be there for all we know.

Hi Sandy – again words "Well Hidden" aren’t accurate. If you look at the photos I posted and photos from 1968 you’ll see there is far less foliage in front of David’s vehicle. With my car there is more foliage including a full tree. And even with what’s there now a second car would have been very visible. I do think that if your not thinking that it’s important to know the make of a car you would think to take note. But I find it odd to know nothing. Please know that I am not saying the zodiac didn’t park there but I think there are to many dots the don’t connect. My one questions is – was the gate further back then it is now?

Maybe when I’m back in twin this a march we can go out and map this out.