Let’s face it, the only thing EVER that connected Johns to the Zodiac was her ID of his sketch on the wall, and his later "admission"of it(Was he lying?) Prior to that, there had never been a confirmed z case in which a woman was picked up by Z, although, there was the car trouble angle to her crime and that of Cheri Bates.

There is a suspect in the case in Napa’s files, that lived in Riverside, and was in the service during the 1960’s. He may fit the description of the guy Johns saw. He is still alive, so we can not name him, but a few of us looked into him and found no confirmed ties to the SF bay area, although, I seem to recall some mention of him in relation to the Modesto area,but have to go back thru my notes. We scratched our heads as to why or how he was a Suspect, because the only confirmed addresses for him were in Riverside. Maybe I will do a FOIA military request on him for shits & giggles

I’d like to say that while I do believe that Kathleen was kidnapped and taken for a ride that night, I’m not so sure it was Zodiac that committed that crime. We do know that there was an article which appeared in the SF Examiner that has the same information in it as was in Zodiac’s letter. And we have the Paul Avery article where he interviewed Kathleen but what we don’t have is anyone in LE expressing a belief that it could have been Zodiac that took Kathleen and her child for a ride.

I do understand that the police officer that interviewed Kathleen the night the incident occurred seemed less than interested in her belief and that is unfortunate. As word got out that Kathleen believed it was Zodiac that kidnapped her and her child I think that at least one of the other jurisdictions would have questioned her and I do not remember that happening.

Howard, maybe you need to recite the Serenity Prayer every time you read a post that expresses views that don’t support your beliefs instead of making the same long rambling posts about your frustration?

Some people believe it was the Zodiac that abducted Johns, while other people are not convinced. I, for one, am not convinced. Do you see me or others who aren’t convinced making posts that give digs to you because you do believe Zodiac was Johns’ abductor?

TF, as for the BS comment, I don’t know where that came from. I haven’t seen anyone in this thread saying that they think Johns lied, just that they are not willing to conclude Zodiac was her abductor.

Hi Tracers

MY BS comment was just to underline that I belive I´m pretty good at detecting when people are not telling the truth, and due to that there, through time, has been indicated by some Zodiac researchers that KJ was not fully truthfull, I just wanted to say that by hearing a LONG interview with her I belive she was truthfull.
I was not hinting to anyone in this thread

One, IMHO, VERY important thing that point to that it was the Zodiac that kidnapped KJ was that she recived a Halloween card, alledged an exact copy of the Halloween card that Zodiac sent to the SF Chronicle.

You can read more about the KJ halloween card here:

http://zodiackiller.fr.yuku.com/topic/3739#.UyryBKhdXTo

And also; WHY would Zodiac in a letter confess that it was him who kidnapped KJ when the kidnapping/ inteded murder, was one big fiasco?

One, IMHO, VERY important thing that point to that it was the Zodiac that kidnapped KJ was that she recived a Halloween card, alledged an exact copy of the Halloween card that Zodiac sent to the SF Chronicle.

You can read more about the KJ halloween card here:

http://zodiackiller.fr.yuku.com/topic/3739#.UyryBKhdXTo

And also; WHY would Zodiac in a letter confess that it was him who kidnapped KJ when the kidnapping/ inteded murder, was one big fiasco?

KJ’s name and locale were in the paper. I personally can’t base judgment off something having not having seen it…as did LE I imagine.

Why would he confess? Taking credit for a frightening act he could simply never be traced to. "Yep..that was me and my car. You should probably be on the lookout for it".

Had that article not been written in the S.F. Examiner, with almost word-for-word statements later written by Zodiac, there would be no question…right? Hey, Kathleen and the newspaper threw it out there, why not go along with it? Enough time had passed by the time Zodiac wrote about it.

Maybe my questions stared here: http://zodiackiller.com/Johns.html

In his letter Z mentioned that he gave a ride in the ‘ evening’ and that it lastet a ‘couple of howers’. Was this information in the newspaper as well?

Meaning it could have happened in the morning or during daytime…it also could have lastet less than a couple of hours.

Just wondering how he had learned about the ‘evening’..

QT

In his letter Z mentioned that he gave a ride in the ‘ evening’ and that it lastet a ‘couple of howers’. Was this information in the newspaper as well?

Meaning it could have happened in the morning or during daytime…it also could have lastet less than a couple of hours.

Just wondering how he had learned about the ‘evening’..

QT

Yep. They wrote "night".

***

–

– –

– –

So everything was available from the news..

Do we know KJ’s home address?

UPDATE
Her home address was 847 Campus Way, San Bernardino. She left her home at around 7.00 pm and it was about midnight when the incident had happened. This is coinciding with an estimated 5.5 hours driving time from San Bernardino.

QT

Quick,
Yes,’ evening’ was mentioned as well as ‘two hours.’ So it was public knowledge.

Now again, Z with his known massive ego and boasting to the police, and public about how superior he was, etc.; and then claim publically (7/24/70) Kathleen Johns a pregnant female with a child at that ,and able to escape from him as a victim when there were so many other murder cases in CA to claim where the victim did not escape and was killed by an unknown assailant. Why not pick one of those cold cases? The perp was successful in murdering a victim/s-sometimes more than one on a single occasion as Z had done. I have read about many such cases during that time period.
Why select a victim who since she was pregnant and with a infant would make it even easier for the great Zodiac to kill her when she is wily enough to escape the expert killer Zodiac? Why claim such a great failure when part of his missive campaign was to brag about how many he killed, how smart he was,and how he would never be caught, etc., etc.? So unlike all we know about him!!!

If it is seen that this incident (3/22/70-full moon’-spring solstice) is ‘unlike Z’ then how much more would it be ‘unlike Z’ claiming a failed( a ‘fiasco’ as TF put it so correctly as she always does-one of our best Zearchers ever!) victim who was very vulnerable due to her ‘condition’- then doing it in the media- which he knew would be spread around even on TV/radio ;and that his hated ‘blue pigs’ would learn of this. How can that be a legit argument?

LB was ‘unlike‘ BRS/LHR and PH!!! But,of course, we lose our base start point LB here for some as some reject Z as doing LB when the LE does accept it, which is an argument against KJ being a Z as LE does not accept it as a Z contradiction. LE accepts CJB too. Not every single member of LE ,but read CII reports,etc.LB is accepted too.

The Stine composite shows a thin face and Johns likened her "kidnapper" to that picture. She also estimated him to be 5’8" and 160 pounds.

There are many witnesses who put Z at up to about 6ft tall and heavyset – possibly over 200 pounds. There’s always the chance that Z was a bigger and heavier guy than the man who abducted Johns so perhaps he was happy to take the blame for this one in order to mislead LE into looking for someone smaller and lighter than he was? They were also looking for a guy with a specific type of car with kids’ clothes in the back so probably a father – another classic misdirection?

The Stine composite shows a thin face and Johns likened her "kidnapper" to that picture. She also estimated him to be 5’8" and 160 pounds.

There are many witnesses who put Z at up to about 6ft tall and heavyset – possibly over 200 pounds. There’s always the chance that Z was a bigger and heavier guy than the man who abducted Johns so perhaps he was happy to take the blame for this one in order to mislead LE into looking for someone smaller and lighter than he was? They were also looking for a guy with a specific type of car with kids’ clothes in the back so probably a father – another classic misdirection?

Z was stocky but not fat..weight is difficult to estimate, especially if as a woman ranging somewhere between 90 and 130 lbs…in that case, 160 lbs. would appear to be stocky – although for a man 160 lbs. is quite ok. If Z had 180 lbs. and KJ estimated him to be 160 lbs., nobody would worry about it. With 200+ lbs. it might be a different appearance, possibly even more than ‘stocky’. And just because his belli stretched behind his belt doesn’t necessarily mean that Z was stocky or even fat (LB). Nevertheless – the height estimate is close and so is the 160 pounds not really wrong either. A ’round face’ was present at BRS and likely was so at LB (maybe the reason why Z had worn his hood? Mageau, at BRS, named exactly this as being one of his features..the sketch from the girls who had seen a man some time before LB indeed shows a very round face). Also wasn’t Fouke even mentioning that Z’s face was rounder than drawn in the police sketch? Furthermore, KJ, has she ever made a separate sketch or did she just remain with the sketch looking like him?

Overall..KJ identified her assailant due to the sketch. In good old Germany we had sketches and pictures of RAF members hanging on every police station for years (!), so every child knows about how they look like..Christian Klar (I went to the same school..) and others. https://www.google.at/search?q=raf+fahn … CDMQ9QEwAw

Let’s assume for a second that the sketch was not the same person who had abducted KJ: May we really believe that KJ would have recognized this person as being her abductor? Only minutes after she had seen him for about two hours? I really doubt that two persons would have had the same look-a-like..hairline, glasses, eyes, chin etc..all the same? Hm..

Z, if the same person seen by the three girls at LB, was able to go without glasses. And he did not wear them at BRS, did he? So I would rather wonder about that discrepancy..two people were seen at CJB at night looking for something (Timex?). Possibly two people at LHR, too.

In fact, if KJ had recognized the Stine sketch, it might be the best visualization of Z we got. Still to be considered the pock marks on his chin. So in fact we may assume that Z had (at least sometimes) worn black heavy-rimmed glasses AND had pock marks on his chin, with latter being a more reliable feature. This feature may or may not have been the reason, why Z had worn the hood at (daylight) LB scene, knowing that this might make him identifyable easier. With KJ, it was not necessary to hide his face as he planned to kill her anyway.

So imo we are looking for a guy with pock marks on his chin. Allen had no such pock marks (ruling him out since 1970..lol), Kaczynski had no such pock marks, Marshall although having a round face had no such pock marks, Kane and Gaikowski as far as I can see had no such pock marks, Michael O’Hare had no such pock marks and even Bruce Davis had no such pock marks. Also Ross had none. After all, I think we simply should keep in mind that those pock marks on his chin were a unique feature of KJ’s abductor’s face and, contrary to chicken pocks, such pocks have a different clinical picture including the possibility of a brain damage..although not all over his face (rather slight pock marks as it had not been mentioned by anyone else), those pock marks won’t go away.

QT

Not sure if we should be ruling out Zodiac suspects based on pock marks.

Kathleen was a nurse, I would think she would be a fine judge of weight. I think Quagmire makes some valid points.

Not sure if we should be ruling out Zodiac suspects based on pock marks.

Kathleen was a nurse, I would think she would be a fine judge of weight. I think Quagmire makes some valid points.

True, we should not, as everything is still possible..

Not only that her ‘abductor’ might have been a father, he may also have been a kidnapper and therefore having children’s clothes inside his car.

With Kathleen being a nurse, indeed, she obviously recognized not only her abductor but also realized the marks on his chin as being pock marks. And she was aware of remembering those details, even had mentioned to having done so while driving around together with him. Ruling out suspects is one thing, as such pock marks may or may not be almost invisible. But finding a person having such pock marks may be another..

QT

The marks on her abductors face would be one of those things where up-close and personal she would be able to say "that’s him"! But, it’s also sort of the point about why Zodiac may have said it was him. She clearly had a face to look at and that face quite possibly could not be Zodiac’s.

Let’s go back to the first estimate of Z’s appearance -since so much dross, especially since big Allen came into the zicture- to our first description of Z.
MM said and Dave Peterson a Police Reporter who I worked with was only a few away from MM when he -in person-said this and that was the attacker was "short" (5’8"one estimate by MM)and was about 160 lbs. or so .He was not a big man. His face was’ large,’but only seen by MM in "profile." He appeared ‘stocky.’

At LB BH went from ‘160lbs.’ up to’ 200′ or so lbs. No scale and not height measuring device, and he was on the ground most of the time! Height went from ‘5’8/9"’ to about’ 6 ft.’ I went through all reports. Did that ‘large hood’ have space from the top of Z’s cranium to the top of the hood itself -if so any height estimate could be dubious. BH said a few times that he could’ not be sure’ of Z’s weight as he was wearing very ‘baggy clothes.’ He just could not be sure. He was wearing boots which can bring height up about 2 inches. That hood could bring it anther 2 inches. We don’t know. The ‘compaction test’ was not reliable. I have researched this subject. The type of soil, the down stroke of the legs while walking or how well developed the muscularity is can make deep impressions in soil(even if the person weighs say 160/180lbs.,and if the person is wearing heavy type footwear-boots would do it- all can make for great variables. They said their suspect would be over 200 lbs.so a ‘big guy’. Well, I am over 200 lbs.and I am not a big guy!!!
BH saw dark brown hair. Voice was that of a student and this agrees with Officer Slaight’s voice concept who said the voice over the phone sounded ‘young’ 20’s.One poster years ago using before and after photos who had a fairly thin son placed baggy clothes on him and indeed he did look very much larger than he really was!

At PH the original estimate by the teens from the building was about 5’8"-35-44( Fouke ) and a ‘heavy build’ with brown hair (depends on what he was wearing underneath that nylon jacket-we do not know but he appeared stocky).This original description changed later. Officer Fouke ‘about 5’10"’-180-200 lbs with a ‘medium heavy build.’ This was as per F a quick view as he supposedly passed by him!

Johns description can fit from comparing all reports.I copied them and placed them side by side. We must realize there was no scales or height measuring device so al guessed!
since I know my POI so wel I will use him. His build has been described as’ heavy-set’;’muscular;’"thick set"(from a close friend that knew him well from 1967 to 1970 and wrote it in a book-it was this same author who said he had ‘sores around his chin -neck’ in 1969-so our poster above is incorrect about BD has not having marks on his chin-in on photo-which I had blown up- they can be seen now as scars/indentations from those large sores he had !). Now he weighed as low as 155-160lbs. to as low as 155 lbs, He said when taking speed he could loose a great deal of weight very fast,but then he would eat a lot and gain weight quickly.
There are al kinds of scenarios here and Johns can be taken out of the Z loop as to appearance estimates!

I do believe KJ was with Z..that being said it will never be proven until (unless) he is caught (like never) and admits to it (even then I would suspect Z would claim credit but no way to prove)…bottom line is we will never know…

might as well add riverside connection..dang I would love to finally have some undisputed evidence located on that.,,is DF the key or was she associated in some regards with Z (albany connection)…who killed CJB and was it a lovers quarrel or not..was domingos/edwards associated with early Z…will the fbi ever release any more on TK black hood…just part of my wish list

i still have ALA as a good suspect..he fits in many ways (problem is i see the same in many others as well)…god speed