I like the way you think Norse.

I have no doubt that she was given a ride by Zodiac , she did ID the very same picture in a line up as I did a few weeks before, of the same man I got away from in Vallejo/Napa 1968, whom I believe was Zodiac. What are the odds of that I wonder ?

That man is still alive by the way and looks to be a healthy 70 -75 yrs old.

I hope the Halloween card she received from Zodiac and gave to Paul Avery will be found ,then perhaps people will believe it was Zodiac yet again enjoying the taunting of his victim.

By Zodiac admitting he gave her a rather interesting ride ,he wanted everyone to know that he could be anywhere and that no one was safe from him. (Spreading more fear)

Sandy, can you be sure that it was the very same picture? Did you talk at that time to police or Kathleen Johns about this particular picture or do you relate to the sketch Kathleen Johns had recognized? Because if so, I guess, police should know the person of whom the picture was from..

Could you please tell us more about those two line ups, where and how and about the officers? Thx.

QT

if he wanted to spread fear via johns he would have said "im the zodiac" at some point during the ride.

assuming his plan was that she would later identify him based on a composite is overly complicated and unbelievable.

i do not think the johns story was the zodiac, i do think he liked taking credit for things he didn’t do.

I have no doubt that she was given a ride by Zodiac , she did ID the very same picture in a line up as I did a few weeks before, of the same man I got away from in Vallejo/Napa 1968, whom I believe was Zodiac. What are the odds of that I wonder ?

That man is still alive by the way and looks to be a healthy 70 -75 yrs old.

I hope the Halloween card she received from Zodiac and gave to Paul Avery will be found ,then perhaps people will believe it was Zodiac yet again enjoying the taunting of his victim.

By Zodiac admitting he gave her a rather interesting ride ,he wanted everyone to know that he could be anywhere and that no one was safe from him. (Spreading more fear)

Sandy, can you be sure that it was the very same picture? Did you talk at that time to police or Kathleen Johns about this particular picture or do you relate to the sketch Kathleen Johns had recognized? Because if so, I guess, police should know the person of whom the picture was from..

Could you please tell us more about those two line ups, where and how and about the officers? Thx.

QT

Hi QT, It was Harvey Hinds who told me. I told him to talk to her and where she was at the time, because SFPD had told me she was in the San Jose area. He went to talk to her and show her the same line up that he showed me. He later called me to let me know she had picked out the very same picture that I did. I had no reason to not believe him, so I didn’t question it.
When I read her discription of him in Graysmith’s book , I was sure then that we both had seen the same man, Zodiac or not. She gave the best discription of who I got away from and still seeing from time to time. If my suspect is not Zodiac, then the man we both got away from is just another dangerous nut job. But when you put everything together, the clothes line taken from my yard before the stabbings, the killers costume put in my car so soon after. Then the man being the same one who KJ saw, he is also the man that Darlene’s family thought was Larry Kane. It is hard not to believe he is Zodiac and not a copy cat. No copy cat could have known about Z using that same sort of clothes line before the crime too place, or what the costume really looked like a day or so after the crime.( No one seems to be connecting the dots ? )

if he wanted to spread fear via johns he would have said "im the zodiac" at some point during the ride.

assuming his plan was that she would later identify him based on a composite is overly complicated and unbelievable.

Perhaps he would have – perhaps. Then again he didn’t say "I’m The Zodiac" at Berryessa. Personally I don’t think he said so to Paul Stine either – but that’s impossible to know. As for his plan – no, if the man was indeed Z he wouldn’t have relied on her identifying him from the composite. But his plan may not have hinged on her recognizing him at all – perhaps he intended to do precisely what he, apparently, did: Brag about the episode to the papers.

To me there’s plenty to indicate that "Zodiac", as a "name", was very much like a handle to him, something he called himself when communicating with the world at large through the media. I don’t think he would have been compelled to use this moniker on a personal level, one-on-one with his victim. He may have, for all we know, but I don’t think it’s a necessary assumption (if you will).

This man told KJ he was going to kill her and throw her baby out of the car–according to KJ herself. In that aspect, it was unsuccessful. He did not do what he said he was going to do.

This whole scenario is very much not like Zodiac.

KJ saying the man who took her for her ride looked like the composite does not make it so.

Why take credit? Because she saw a different man and a different car who the police were now considering. The newspaper threw out the interesting ride, all Zodiac did was repeat it, almost verbatim.

If the – true – intention was to scare Johns and/or the public (later), then that is what he or Z or whoever DID. If you tell me that you’re going to kill me, with the intention of scaring the crap out of me, you have succeeded, surely, if I get scared. The fact that I manage to run away from you – and that you don’t actually kill me – doesn’t change that.

People use the "but he botched it, so why brag about it?" as an argument BOTH against Z being the abductor AND against him being the letter writer. What I’m suggesting is that this isn’t necessarily a sound argument if the intention – even if it’s just Z’s intention as a letter writer – is to incite fear and continue his reign of terror.

No big deal, though. We don’t even know to what extent Johns has any bearing on the case – it’s pretty much all hypothetical, but what isn’t in this case?

Also the ponce ave canoga park attempted kidnapping/assault Z or not Z.

how many people were carjacked or kidnapped in the same time frame as johns? probably quite a few.

how many of those have we heard about? none.

why? because none of those people told cops the suspect looked like a composite of zodiac.

my point is, from zodiac’s point of view, how many times would you have to kidnap and threaten someone before the person randomly later realized you were zodiac? probably quite a few.

the law of averages would lead me to believe that if we are to assume zodiac kidnapped johns for the sake of terrorizing the public, but part of his MO was to NOT mention to his victim that he was the zodiac,then he would have to kidnap a LOT of people before one would make the connection. that makes no sense.

also, the perp supposedly drove johns around for over an hour. none of the known zodiac crimes were slow and listless. he always got in and out in a matter of minutes.

i think johns made the whole thing up. from what i’ve read her story doesn’t line up in several facets, including the location of the gas station, the length of time she was with the perp, the things said in the car, etc.

how many people were carjacked or kidnapped in the same time frame as johns? probably quite a few.

how many of those have we heard about? none.

why? because none of those people told cops the suspect looked like a composite of zodiac.

my point is, from zodiac’s point of view, how many times would you have to kidnap and threaten someone before the person randomly later realized you were zodiac? probably quite a few.

the law of averages would lead me to believe that if we are to assume zodiac kidnapped johns for the sake of terrorizing the public, but part of his MO was to NOT mention to his victim that he was the zodiac,then he would have to kidnap a LOT of people before one would make the connection. that makes no sense.

also, the perp supposedly drove johns around for over an hour. none of the known zodiac crimes were slow and listless. he always got in and out in a matter of minutes.

i think johns made the whole thing up. from what i’ve read her story doesn’t line up in several facets, including the location of the gas station, the length of time she was with the perp, the things said in the car, etc.

This is borderline pointless to argue about, but what the hey: What you propose above doesn’t hold true unless these victims (that didn’t recognize Z) somehow failed to report their ordeals. As long as the "interesting ride" was reported to the police (and who would NOT report such an incident?), that would be enough.

Again, though – pretty much academic and I won’t argue the point any further.

For my money Johns was probably not Z. But I wouldn’t outright dismiss it either.

I agree with all of the above but don’t plan to read anymore about Johns or any of the other "possibles" with the exception of Cheri Jo Bates and Donna Lass. Those are the two most likely Z victims imo. As to the other "possibles" I have concluded that nobody will probably ever know until Z is positively identified if ever and then it should be rather simple to compare evidence against the "possibles."

The ONLY thing we have is KJ saying he looked like the poster. How many men have been acknowledged on websites, and family members saying, "it looks just like my Dad, Uncle Joe, neighbor", etc? .

Sorry for quoting a three year old post. But I couldn’t agree more. Composite wanted posters with sketched images are generally pretty worthless and in this case, the one created after the Stine murder is very badly drawn. What does that image say? Not a whole lot. How many men would resemble that image? VERY many.

Oculus: I’ve always contended that witness descriptions are untrustworthy, especially those connected with a homicide. When you’re face to barrel with a pistol (or, alternatively, face to blade with a knife), you concentrate on the weapon, not the perp. I mean, few of us exit our homes every morning with the thought that, " Today I might have my life threatened, so I should remember to eyeball my assailant closely."

IMO its not that easy. Z, if it was him, was disturbed by the fact that KJ excited the car and a lorry driver came by, too. She then reacted hysterically, recognizing her adaptor. In addition to that, Z wrote about the interesting ride he gave a young woman and her baby. IMO this is a clear Z event.

QT

Just to reiterate: viewtopic.php?f=34&t=133