rand, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:41 pm

Hijacking a thread?! Mike r challenges everyone who has a POI to put up or shut up. So I talk about what he’s found and briefly (very briefly) mention that I’m willing to take up his challenge regarding specific links of my POI to Z and compare them with the links he’s undercovered re Mr. X. I never mention TH. My next post asks if DNA or fingerprints have been compared and then goes on to say why I don’t find it compelling that LE interviewed Mr. X the night of Stine’s murder. How in the world is that HIJACKING A THREAD! JEEEEZ. AK mentions TK in every post on every thread, and no one says anything (which is perfectly fine with me). I simply respond to a challenge issued by Mike r in a post in which that’s not my main concern and I’m hijacking a thread? Give me a break

Here’s what Mike r wrote that I responded to: "It doesn’t get closer to home than this. I challenge anyone else with a POI in the case to link him into it as intimately as Mr. X can be tied to it, as being the only POIU spoken to by the police and also having direct ties to Hartnell’s car. To hell with their DNA! Follow your nose to the truth."

You wrote: "We can and MUST all accept critics but you can not continually hijack a thread without putting up any specific and detailed evidence."
I purposely didn’t provide all the links I’ve found here BECAUSE I DIDN’T WANT TO HIJACK THE THREAD. I simply said: check my thread and see for yourself.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:49 pm

I don’t think Rand hijacked the thread, he responded to what Mike R said. Rand maybe could be just a bit more polite…but I think the floor is open for tough criticism and questions, if polite and respectful, when someone asks the board what do people think of this evidence. Mike R did not have a problem with what Rand posted, he acknowledged it and moved on, asking what others thought.

Lets all move on and discuss the evidence, pro and con.

Good job IBF, nice to see you posting.

rand, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:51 pm

Thanks, AK.
I still haven’t gotten an answer to my very direct question re Mr. X: "Has LE taken fingerprint or DNA evidence from Mr. X and compared it with Z’s? If so, what did they find?"
I wonder why people so often ignore direct questions re their POI? (not you AK, others).

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:57 pm

I will let Mike R answer that, but keep in mind, in my experience often law enforcement will not tell you what specific tests and comparisons they did or did not do. Also, it is very debatable if any real Z prints are on file. But I will let Mike R field the question if he wishes to, and if he knows the answer.

In Bonus Fides, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:58 pm

Sorry Rand>

Maybe I went a little overboard.

I like Pepsi.

Show me ANY connection to Mt Diablo and TH.

Show me ANY connection to Presidio Heights, Paul Stine or Oct 30 1969 and TH.

Show me ANY personal connection between Bryan Hartnell, Bruce Christie, his/their VW Kharmann Ghia, Lake Berryessa and TH.

I give you TH’s Libertarianism/ hatred of Government/Authority, which I feel is a big theme in the Z killings.

Show me ANY connection to to Betty Lou Jensen and David Farraday and/or their families and TH, such as through mutual membership in a" Fraternal Organization" that was the site of the victim’s first and LAST date, or any other connection , for that matter, to TH.

Show me evidence TH was at or near ( within 2 miles like the Race/Speedway) of Cheri Jo Bates@ UC Riverside on the night of her death.

THERE is the Pepsi and I am sure you will choose Coke anyways.

IBF

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Mon Aug 01, 2011 11:22 pm

Rand if you want to answer IBF, copy and paste his questions and answer him in the TH thread.

Lets leave this thread for Mr.X.

In Bonus Fides, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Mon Aug 01, 2011 11:38 pm

I might add what I know as to prints and DNA.

DNA was given to ABC/SFPD. The sample that it was tested against ( supposedly Z’s) was an incomplete base sample, to my limited knowledge, in that the Z sample had only 4 of 9 alleles identifiable….less than 50%.

This means that the known sample was only 40% matchable and of that 40%, Mr. X’s sample was "inconclusive".

I believe he DID not volunteer fingerprints, as that he was not under suspicion of, nor charged with, nor detained upon suspicion of any crime so any decent lawyer would have stopped him from volunteering the prints.

The DNA comparison sample results would have been been LONG disclosed to Mr. X’s attorney as NOTHING is left to chance on TV, otherwise he would not have signed off on it’s airing. Trust me , TV is my business and EVERYTHING is scripted, scrutinized and pre-determined on network TV. There are no "surprises" at $500,000 per 30 second ad! Even if it would have left him legally vulnerable, if it was coming back match……his lawyers would have been given the heads up considering his resources.

Finally, let me tell you something about Mr. X and DNA.

Mr. X has been making MILLIONS in business with relation to DNA since 1946 and knows a whole hell of a lot more than the upper 1% of society the inner workings of blood testing/archetyping, DNA and the testing, collection and relevance of such and has since before Television was invented!!!!!

Do you also not find it strange that of 7 confirmed/suspected Z victims, 2 owned VW’s at a time when only 4 % of all 250 Million Americans owned one.

Not to mention the Berkeley incident with the VW beetle that was suspected to be Z in which a VW was disabled, a man volunteered to help and became enraged when another bystander" intervened" to offer help.

There is A LOT. I have a few doubts but , if I am not mistaken, ALA was investigated in large part to his "going to the races in Riverside " when Bates was killed, yet it was never conclusively confirmed he was there.

They tore his life apart on less evidence than i feel there is on Mr.X, yet Mr. X was in Riverside that day, was unable to prove he was not at his residence( 500 feet from the Stine scene), maintained a marina slip at/near Lake Berryessa ( and Tahoe….Donna Lass??),owned businesses in central Napa and Vallejo, was in the Navy Air Transport ( Wing Walker’s???), knows that SLA means kill in Norwegian, made his fortune on DNA, VW’s and flying yet it is beyond reproach that LE should question a man because he is prominent and 90 years old???

Maybe someone should talk to Claudia Stine, The Suennen’s, The Farradays, The Shephard’s, et all and have Bryan Hartnell look at a Civil Suit where the threshold is much lower yet the penalties and compulsion to testify are similar to Criminal proceedings?????

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:08 am

IBF you might want to look here and see what I learned about the possible Zodiac DNA said to have been recovered by SFPD from a stamp on a confirmed Zodiac letter.

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … ence-in-it

It goes on for 10 pages, some back and forth, and I later found one thing which gives me a slightly more optimistic view, or at least confused the issue a little, but the bottom line is there is serious reason to question the DNA as it appears that as of right now the SFPD is expressing little confidence in it.

There is interesting circumstantial and other evidence concerning Mr. X, but I highly doubt the victims would get anywhere with a civil suit, because there is a lack of so called hard evidence – DNA, fingerprints, hair, fiber, ballistics – to slam dunk connect him to the case in a way to prove by preponderance of the evidence (civil standard) that he caused a death of a particular victim.

rand, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:33 am

Sorry Rand>

Maybe I went a little overboard.

I like Pepsi.

Show me ANY connection to Mt Diablo and TH.

Show me ANY connection to Presidio Heights, Paul Stine or Oct 30 1969 and TH.

Show me ANY personal connection between Bryan Hartnell, Bruce Christie, his/their VW Kharmann Ghia, Lake Berryessa and TH.

I give you TH’s Libertarianism/ hatred of Government/Authority, which I feel is a big theme in the Z killings.

Show me ANY connection to to Betty Lou Jensen and David Farraday and/or their families and TH, such as through mutual membership in a" Fraternal Organization" that was the site of the victim’s first and LAST date, or any other connection , for that matter, to TH.

Show me evidence TH was at or near ( within 2 miles like the Race/Speedway) of Cheri Jo Bates@ UC Riverside on the night of her death.

THERE is the Pepsi and I am sure you will choose Coke anyways.

IBF

No problem, Bonus. I have over 50 links (very specific and idiosyncratic Z ones) between TH and Z. What TH does is shed light on things we didn’t understand — he explains vital clews that Z left regarding his identity. That’s the key. You’re asking questions regarding, for instance, links between the POI and the victims. Why would that be important or a sine qua non for any POI? What if the victims were chosen randomly, as most people believe? Why, then, would we need links between a POI and the victims? We wouldn’t, right? What if Z was a hitman hired to kill them by rogue cops or a drug cartel? I can fire back 50 of my connections and ask if Mr. X has these links…but that would be hijacking this thread. So I’ve answered briefly and not in a way that has anything to do with my POI.
My problem with Mr. X is precisely what you’re bringing up, however. The so-called smoking guns and "incredible" links just don’t add up for me. The things you mention in your post above don’t strike me as very compelling or interesting connections. They’re not the kinds of connections that I think will solve this case. Links to Hartnell’s car, indirect links to victims, areas where victims were murdered — just red herrings in my view…that is, unless they’re supported by the vital things that we know about Z.
For instance, ask yourself, why would a wealthy man like Mr. X be driving an old, beat-up car with worn tires that don’t match? How do you answer that?

mike_r, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:10 am

Hi-

We discussed the issues with DNA ad nauseum on another thread. Suffice it to say that I refuse to apologize for it anymore. SFPD is slowly distancing itself from that sample and began doing so in 2009.

As for handwriting, all I’ve ever been able to gather up are samples that are in upper case only. These samples postdate the Z era. As for what the police may or may not have looked at, I can’t say. All I can say is that the behavioral profile and the DNA were both supposed to rule this man out. They don’t.

I gave up many years ago trying to convince *everyone* that I am right. Take a guy like Rand for example. When I can make a link between the car at Berryessa and my POI, he says that these were random crimes, so that link is irrelevant. Even when I can demonstrate with photos that my POI has a history of autographing cars in his own life (who else does this?), it it meaningless. But what if Z were a random killer who was driving around the lake and just happened to spot a couple of people driving a car he had imported and decided to choose them as his victims? Rand would say this is irrelevant, too.

When I can say that my POI lived around the block from a crime scene and was accosted by the police shortly after that murder, he states that serial killers do not kill near their homes. So having a man who closely resembles the sketch and who lives near one of the murder scene and who was spoken to by the cops and then lied about his whereabouts that night to me becomes irrelevant. Maybe what you read in books isn’t always true. BTK killed someone down the block from his home but Z is not permitted to show the same type of arrogance in his crimes. The more brazen the killer, the more likely it is he may do things that are not in textbooks on geographic profiling.

Rand uses the encounter with F and Z to say that my POI would not have had the nerve to get back out on the street right after the Stine murder. Why not? He was caught dead to rights by the cops. According to the kids, they felt that Z never looked up at them or became aware (nor cared about) their presence. So when the cop car slowed down and they took a look at Z and then kept driving, this would have reinforced in Z’s mind the concept that nobody had seen him kill the cabbie. Why else did he casually walk down the streets after the murder? So even though he was wrong about not having bene seen, this would have been the distinct impression the encounter with F and Z would have left on him. If someone had seen and described him, surely the cops would have stopped him, right? But he was mistaken and made a huge miscalculation in getting back out on the streets because he ran into Armond Pelissetti, who put my POI’s name into the records of that night.

When a cold case is solved, the old saying is that the perp’s name was buried somewhere in the files from pervious contact. Mr. X’s name is probably the first one that entered into SFPD’s case files on the night of the Stine murder.

Rand is someone who posts obsessively. Scores and scores of pages in his threads on this and other MB’s. I am not going to combat every objection he has. If Troy Houghton’s friend owned Hartnell’s car, you can be sure Z would not be just a "random killer." If Haughton had been spoken to by the police after any of the murders, you can be sure that would be the endgame. If Haughton had a history or writing his name on cars in felt tip, that would be significant. But I already know that for someone like Rand who is convinced that his research is correct, nothing I ever say will be greeted with an "Oh, wow!" factor from him. It will be greeted with head-scratching and minimalization.

That is part of the game, and I accept it but I am not going to continually apologize for the facts I unearth. I used to do that in the early 2000s and I gave it up. If my research doesn’t resonate with you, I respect that but I am not going to continually combat your every objection, since they are never-ending. I am speaking to those who have an open mind as to who Z was. A behavioral profiler who has had great success in assisting LE from around the US solve tough cases agrees with my conclusions. He is not worried about geographic profiling. He has found a man who fits the power-assertive profile in spades and who was dishonest to me in a 2006 interview as to his whereabouts on the night of the Stine murder, his military record and about the big crossed-circle on the building he purchased in the 1990s. That is of more interest than DNA from potentially contaminated letters.

Mike

morf13, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:12 am

There is too much discussion here about T.H. Please leep this section focused on Mr. X, and not T.H. I personally DO consider this to be a hijack of sorts. If you wish to challenge a POI, or suspect, please do so by asking valid questions, or supplying valid info, as opposed to posting about what makes makes your own POI more of a valid suspect. Friendly debate is encouraged, but not hijacking. I wouldnt want to see Mike R posting in the T.H. thread about why MrX is a better suspect, and I dont want to see anyone posting here about their own suspect being more valid then MrX….everyone, please respect that rule.

morf13, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:20 am

I gave up many years ago trying to convince *everyone* that I am right. Take a guy like Rand for example. When I can make a link between the car at Berryessa and my POI, he says that these were random crimes, so that link is irrelevant. Even when I can demonstrate with photos that my POI has a history of autographing cars in his own life (who else does this?), it it meaningless. But what if Z were a random killer who was driving around the lake and just happened to spot a couple of people driving a car he had imported and decided to choose them as his victims? Rand would say this is irrelevant, too.

This is a very valid point. This may be coincidence, but maybe it isnt. Its worth looking into. But I agree, if there was something on the car door that pointed to TEDK, or TROYH(using those 2 suspects as an example), then I am sure that Ak, or Rand would find it very interesting, just as I would if I saw something pointing to my suspect. My own personal opinion is that most people have blinders on when it comes to their own suspect that they cant look objectively at other suspects or POI’s. Personally, I have a favorite POI, but I am always willing to look at others as well, and if I ever see anything that rules out my POI with certainty, I would drop him like a hot potato. Mike, I say keep digging, the clues you found about the car door are indeed interesting, and worth looking at.

rand, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:18 am

There is too much discussion here about T.H. Please leep this section focused on Mr. X, and not T.H. I personally DO consider this to be a hijack of sorts. If you wish to challenge a POI, or suspect, please do so by asking valid questions, or supplying valid info, as opposed to posting about what makes makes your own POI more of a valid suspect.

Where did I talk about TH and what makes him a more valid POI? Show me. I never brought up TH; others have. Mike issued a challenge and, in a brief section of my response, I took up his challenge. But I didn’t mention my POI or list anything about him. 99% of my posts have been about Mr. X and Mike’s findings. If others including Mike r want to talk about TH, that’s not my problem. Read the posts Morf.

And I still haven’t received an answer to my question: Why would Mr. X, a wealthy man, be driving around in an old car with two different, worn front tires?

Morf writes: "Personally, I have a favorite POI, but I am always willing to look at others as well, and if I ever see anything that rules out my POI with certainty, I would drop him like a hot potato."
PRECISELY! If my POI were looked at by LE and his fingerprints and/or DNA didn’t match, I’d take NO for an answer and drop him like a hot potato. My god, I don’t enjoy the task of trying to find needles in a haystack. If it’s not my guy, great…it’s not my guy. With Mr. X, we have someone who has been looked at seriously and he’s not the guy. That’s it. No, not him. So why Morf do you say: Keep digging? It makes no sense with what you wrote about "I would drop him like a hot potato." But I’m getting the feeling that sense is not entering into any of this.
And I’m here looking at Mr. X and asking questions and stating opinions, so I obviously look at others as well, correct? Where are Mike r’s posts on my thread?

Zamantha, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:12 am

There is too much discussion here about T.H. Please leep this section focused on Mr. X, and not T.H. I personally DO consider this to be a hijack of sorts. If you wish to challenge a POI, or suspect, please do so by asking valid questions, or supplying valid info, as opposed to posting about what makes makes your own POI more of a valid suspect.

Where did I talk about TH and what makes him a more valid POI? Show me. I never brought up TH; others have. Mike issued a challenge and, in a brief section of my response, I took up his challenge. But I didn’t mention my POI or list anything about him. 99% of my posts have been about Mr. X and Mike’s findings. If others including Mike r want to talk about TH, that’s not my problem. Read the posts Morf.

And I still haven’t received an answer to my question: Why would Mr. X, a wealthy man, be driving around in an old car with two different, worn front tires?

Morf writes: "Personally, I have a favorite POI, but I am always willing to look at others as well, and if I ever see anything that rules out my POI with certainty, I would drop him like a hot potato."
PRECISELY! If my POI were looked at by LE and his fingerprints and/or DNA didn’t match, I’d take NO for an answer and drop him like a hot potato. My god, I don’t enjoy the task of trying to find needles in a haystack. If it’s not my guy, great…it’s not my guy. With Mr. X, we have someone who has been looked at seriously and he’s not the guy. That’s it. No, not him. So why Morf do you say: Keep digging? It makes no sense with what you wrote about "I would drop him like a hot potato." But I’m getting the feeling that sense is not entering into any of this.
And I’m here looking at Mr. X and asking questions and stating opinions, so I obviously look at others as well, correct? Where are Mike r’s posts on my thread?

Rand,
First of all I’d like to say to everyone, active listen…then ask your questions. Mike R. and with some input from IBF were doing a pretty good job of painting a picture of Mr. X. I for one was watching this thread very carefully. I feel they both deserve a HUGE Kudoz for all the research they have done. This is what we want, all POI’s to be researched completely then we can weigh them in or out as a POI. For me, Mr. X is still in and I haven’t given you my reasons and I probably will not. I have known men of great power who play games to win and yes even in their own streets, towns. There is nothing wrong with a good healthy debate, but you know darn well no one has answers to all your questions. Your questions appear to me to be more about making your POI the right guy then asking good questions. This Forum is for open minded people….but there is a thread for all topic’s and each POI. If you or anyone wants to ask good solid questions on a POI…well go right ahead. But I ask that from now on NO one post a reason why their POI is better then someone else’s POI. <–Or if you must do that well do it in your own POI thread. When people start doing this it is a conversation killer. We all learn more by first active listening….that’s one of the first things one learns in a management class. Then gather your questions and ask them in a polite organized manner. I honestly had some more thoughts and yes even questions on Mr. X, but I was waiting….timing is everything and it still was NOT the time to jump right in an ask. First of all Mike R. and IBF were not finished with their reports. This seems to happen more then it should…… I’m all for just erasing those type of posts in the future…and banning any crazy maker from posting in that thread. Rand… your an OK guy but you need to calm down. It’s NOT all about your guy. To tell you the truth your guy bores me to death but you don’t see me coming to your thread and saying my old neighbor from Vallejo is a better POI because of …. (Which I hate to tell you, but he is a much better POI!!!) I have also spoken to one retired police man who thinks MR. X. is a good candidate and should be looked into. I did some of my own research on this guy, and yeah he’s pretty charismatic…and well liked <– Hmmm well we all know how crazy some of those types of people can be. Also he did play a game with Mike R. during their interview, what the H____ was that all about?? All I can say right now is I’m kinda upset………..GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. I’m TOTALLY hoping Mike R. and IBF come back an tell us more. <– And if they do and you still have questions….well PM them to me and I’ll be the mediator and post the questions for Mike R. & IBF to answer……but I don’t think your energy is working on this thread any longer. Thank you for listening.

morf13, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:32 am

Lets get back on topic please…. no contests to see who the better POI is. This thread should be strictly for discussion of MRX. Pros, cons, evidence for, and against, questions for mikeR, etc. So please, lets stick to it.

rand, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:05 pm

Fine with me, but then don’t challenge people with their POIs to put up or shut up. If I made such a challenge on my thread, I daresay you wouldn’t be criticizing anyone for taking me up on it — which I didn’t even do here.

rand, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:12 pm

To tell you the truth your guy bores me to death but you don’t see me coming to your thread and saying my old neighbor from Vallejo is a better POI becuz of …. (Which I hate to tell you, but he is a much better POI!!!)

Yes, you have and, moreover, you do it on this and other threads. It’s simply incredible. I have to calm down? You guys constantly mention my suspect, which I never do, and then criticize me for hijacking threads and criticizing your POI. You hate to tell me but you go right ahead and tell me that my POI bores you to death and you have a much better POI. You just can’t control yourself. But then you say I’m the one out of control?! Read my posts (as I’ve urged you to do already on this and other threads) and show me where I mention my POI. I haven’t. Now look at how much ink you, Mike r, and Bonus have spilled talking about my POI. Please compare the amount of lines and space you’ve taken up and how much I’ve taken up with me and my POI. Mike r issued a challenged and I responded briefly that I would take him up on it. Everything else I’ve said is about Mr. X and Mr. X alone.

mike_r, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:14 pm

Hi-

Thanks for everyone’s input. I’ve been at the Z game for a long time and know that you can’t convince everyone that you’re onto something. I can’t spend my time warding off question after question by someone trying to outdo me and give his perspective (a minimalist one) on my research and that of IBF. I don’t go to his thread, nor anyone else’s, and post things about my research to try to one-up them.

When you’ve got a guy who fits the profile to a tee, looks like the sketch, whose photo got a very strong reaction from the Stine eywitnesses, who would have known of the pitfalls of licking things in the 1960s (despite having no advanced knowledge of DNA testing at the time), who was spoken to by the police after the Stine murder, and then, even though he is a "pillar of the community" type, dragged me out to SF in 2006 and then was very deceptive in his answers to simple questions about the case, AND you can begin to link him into the case through an obsession that both he and Z had with cars, he is someone who deserves strong consideration.

DNA, and the fact that he volunteered a sample in 2002, was being used to rule him out and shut me down. Now we know that the DNA sample is not what it was cracked up to be and that the main reason is that due to an essential absense of amylase on the letters, it is no great leap to conclude that Z never licked the stamps and envelopes to begin with. And if you are Z and you know this and you know that you wore gloves while applying the stamps to the letters, then why wouldn’t you volunteer a sample of DNA for comparison?

The question is this: What is this man hiding? Why did he lie to me? Someone suggested that it is par for the course for *any* Z suspect to lie; it is to be expected. Really? Even the innocent ones who are pillars of the community and highly respected businessmen in SF? I can see an Art Allen lying to make the police chase their tails for fun. But Mr. X lying to me knowning that there was research out there that would prove his bad faith answers (and which I eventually found)? If an innocent man has nothing to hide, what does this say about Mr. X?

Here is the crux of my argument: If LE would interview Mr. X, he has backed himself into a corner with his deceit. If they ask him the same questions I did and he lies again, that is an investigative lead that will bring down the full force of the investigation on him. If he tells the truth and admits that he was stopped by Pelissetti, had sidearms training in the military after denying ever having so much as touched a gun in his life, and that he purchased a building with a huge crossed circle on it and then placed his initial around that crossed circle, thus marrying Z’s symbol with his own initial, then he incriminates himself and the police investigate him anyway. So there is no way for him to win at this point if LE gets up the nerve to do what some schmuck civilian had the nerve to do in 2006.

Then the police can get to the reason he is being so deceptive…and what secret he is hiding.

Mike

morf13, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:38 pm

To tell you the truth your guy bores me to death but you don’t see me coming to your thread and saying my old neighbor from Vallejo is a better POI becuz of …. (Which I hate to tell you, but he is a much better POI!!!)

Yes, you have and, moreover, you do it on this and other threads. It’s simply incredible. I have to calm down? You guys constantly mention my suspect, which I never do, and then criticize me for hijacking threads and criticizing your POI. You hate to tell me but you go right ahead and tell me that my POI bores you to death and you have a much better POI. You just can’t control yourself. But then you say I’m the one out of control?! Read my posts (as I’ve urged you to do already on this and other threads) and show me where I mention my POI. I haven’t. Now look at how much ink you, Mike r, and Bonus have spilled talking about my POI. Please compare the amount of lines and space you’ve taken up and how much I’ve taken up with me and my POI. Mike r issued a challenged and I responded briefly that I would take him up on it. Everything else I’ve said is about Mr. X and Mr. X alone.

You quoted me, but you are quoting the wrong person. I never said that your POI "bores me to death". You have me mixed up with somebody else.

mike_r, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:36 pm

Hi-

I feel compelled to clarify some of the things Mr. Fides asserted on this thread:

1) Nobody claims that a police officer saw Z walk into the property owned by Mr. X at the time of the Stine murder. Armond Pelissetti, in a March 2011 interview, changed his story from saying that he encountered Mr. X on what I presume was Maple Street to saying that Mr. X was in his front yard when he encountered him. This clearly places Pelissetti well east of where he said he went in the Zodiac DVD. The property into which Fouke saw Z possibly go is west of Maple Street and about a block from Mr. X’s property in 1969.

Pelissetti’s statement also means that Mr. X would have needed much less time to change and get into his fornt yard than he would have had he encountered Pelissetti on Maple Street. The time element has always been used by my critics to throw cold water on the amazing fact that, of all people, Mr. X was encountered by Pelissetti shortly after the Stine murder. This now minimizes the amount of time he would have needed to get to the point where he and Pelissetti encountered one another.

2) I have no information on Mr. X being a Liberterian. He is and was a staunch Republican. Beyond that I have no information. He did belong to uber-exclusive, members only clubs in the Bay Area in the 1960s. He may have been a Liberterian but I will levave proof of that to Mr. Fides.

3) Mr. X had a car entered in the 1966 LA Times Grand Prix but it was pulled form the race a couple of days before October 30th due to performance issues and the refusal of the driver to drive it in the event.

Even though I believe Mr. X is Z, I do always attempt to be fair to him and cite only proven and verified facts in my case. I have always urged Mr. Fides to be a careful as possible in what he asserts but sometimes my words don’t have the desired effect.

Mike

In Bonus Fides, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:53 pm

Great post Mike, glad to see you clear a few things up.

I would like to clarify a couple things as I respect your commitment to FACT.

I have a 1966 LA Times Grand Prix program scan which lists two cars as belonging to Mr. X.
One was a scratch and another is listed, subsequently, as a DNF which implies the entry started.

I believe the second car was one of the entries modified later that year for Indy. There is a scale model one could buy of it.

I would like to address Rand’s question of the mismatched tire track prints.

If one owned several distributorships, dealerships, and repair centers ( one in Napa within eyeshot of the Car Wash in 1968-69, BXX Motors Napa), do you not think it would be possible to drive a lot car/repair car/loner that would have been available( being the owner…I guess he would have had keys)??

Maybe it had mismatched tires. I would think being rich would enlarge the availability of ALL types of vehicles and very well may explain why witnesses cited four different cars in the crimes involving a suspected or suspicious vehicle.??

I know for a fact that Mr.X had several farm vehicles registered to his nearby 60 acre spread and that they would cover a broad spectrum of work/ranch vehicles. Could he not have driven one of these possibly, as well??

A european model such as a M100, a VW Type 2 or Ghia, and several others with a 57 and 1/2 inch track width would have also accounted for the witness statements describing a "lack of chrome".

Many Euro imports had a common fault that initially stunted their acceptance by domestic sports car enthusiasts which was a lack of "American" styling; eg. wide lines, lots of chrome bezels,grills,etc.

Finally, I have found tax receipts for Mr.X on watchdog.net that show one of his largest donations ever was $2000 for the 1972 and 1976 Libertarian Candidates for President. Maybe he just hated Nixon and Carter that much! , but it shows right to extreme right leanings which are admittedly, usually always Republican.

Let’s take this as far as we can without crossing that proverbial line and see where it goes.

Nothing personal Mike, but I had always hoped Mr. X WOULD sue you so he would be compelled to testify to your questioning ( which, within reason, is unlimited in scope and duration) ad nauseum, with perjury charges at stake for starters.
:suspect:

IBF

( P.S Mike R- How bout the Rags/Canes game Nov 8th?? if you set it up, I will buy)

In Bonus Fides, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:28 pm

One last item.

When Mr. X was a young man growing up in the Pacific NW he was one of the first entrants in the " Silver Ski Competition", the first precurser of modern downhill moguls ( triple diamond to an extreme!!!) skiing and he was a junior competitor in THE FIRST organized ski race ever, finishing 2nd.

He describes the club ( Scouts based, as he and a brother were involved with, lifelong) as " One of the greatest times of my life".

He purchased property there later in his adult/senior life where he broke a hip skiing at 85. His brother was discovered for a short but successful career in Hollywood there in 1939. He met a fist love ( not his wife) there in the late 1920’s-30’s and lamented about it in his Autobiography.

One of his first businesses was selling a Norwegian brand of skiis , Hovde, mostly at Sun Valley and in WA State.

The area/hill and surrounding area is called" Paradise", for what it’s worth.

In Bonus Fides, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:02 am

Here is a handwriting comparison of a known Z exemplar, circa 1969 and one from Mr. X, a personal dedication in his autobiography, circa 2006.

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:10 am

Those seem somewhat similar, but at closer examination fairly different. In one the loop on the "P" is unconnected, on the other it is connected. In one the top of the "S" is flat, in the other it is curved.

Can you show me these handwriting examples from Mr.X:

A lower case "k", a lower case "m", a lower case "r" and a capital "I"?

I think Mr. X wrote a book, and he has written articles and you may have some letters from him.

Can you show me if he used words like "radians", "rather messy", "trigger mech", "This is", "contrary to what they say", "around in the snow"?

Can you show me if he used any of the same words and phrases Zodiac did?

mike_r, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:20 am

Hi-

We know that someone like X would have had access to an unlimited # of junkers as trade-ins. In a photo in his book he shows what appears to be an old white Chevy on the grounds of the ranch, which was north of Napa and not far from Berryessa.

As for his Libertarian slant, this would just go to show how ultra-conservative he was. Zodiac was attacking the type of young people that you find symbolically in lovers lane areas (no middle age people making out there!) who would have been thretening the old-world, condervative lifestyle with their ideas of communes and, based on the rioting that went on all the time in the Bay Area, threats of anarchy in the streets that threatened to bring down the capitalist system and lifestyle with which Mr. X had grown up in the US…and under which he had benefited immensely in terms of his accumlated wealth and comfortable lifestyle.

Mike

mike_r, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:01 am

Hi-

In terms of speech patterns, he uses the word "rather" in his 1969 letter to the editor in describing the consequences of a failure of the Chron to yield to the author’s will and stop supporting the causes of young college students in the Bay Area (the same type of people Z was murdering). He claimed it could get "rather expensive"…

When he was asked to describe his life in an article in the 2000s, he stated, "It has all been rather exciting…"

He uses the word "shall" in (as an example) a letter he wrote in the 1950s.

These British-isms are to be expected, however, since his own relationship with England started at least in 1947 but may actually have begun in his childhood, since both his and one of his brothers’ middle names were British in origin.

Mike

, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:11 pm

I have often wondered why Pellesetti found Mr X to be so intruiging. Was he shaking/trembling/hyper through Adrenalin? Were his clothes dishevelled or dirty? Was he deliberately rude to the officer or evasive to the point of it appearing suspicious to Armand. Why go back to him (indicating that Mr X didn’t leave the crime scene after his first encounter with the officer), what was it about Mr X? Has Armand ever stated why he was interested? I used to wonder if the Dog walker even had a dog at the scene (could have been carrying a leash) and was merely standing in the shadows watching, but Mike has stated before that there was a dog.

We have a substantial portion of the police reports from all the other accepted Zodiac crimes but only a couple of sheets from SFPD. Is there some reason that they won’t release the reports from the officers that night. AP’s report on his reasons for suspecting Mr X could be crucial. Is there any hope at all that they may release the police reports from that night Mike. I tell you something after forty odd years with precious little info for that night coming through it sort of smacks of ‘something stinks’.

mike_r, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:02 pm

Hi-

A little known fact is that the relationship between Pelissetti and Mr. X apparently goes well beyond just encountering one another in Presidio Heights after the Stine murder 40 years ago. They apparently know each other very well. At first, I thought this was almost definitely suspicious. However, someone in the know said that AP’s beat (probably after the Stine murder) encompassed the area where Mr. X’s business is. Cops always love to schmooze for the best price on merchandise from business owners, so the relationship COULD be nothing more than that. Still, the fact remains that they know one another much more than just in passing.

AP did not consider X a suspect. He considered him a potential witness and does so to this day. But you have to realize that AP has his own agenda to worry about: If he spoke to Z and let him go, imagine what that will do to his self-image. (AP stated in 2007, "If that ‘clown from NJ’ is right, he’ll sure make an ass____ out of me.") It will make what Fouke is accused of seem like child’s play. AP at first used the timing of the encounter (as did other amateurs, who tried to make X’s presence on the streets after the Stine murder argue that he was innocent, instead of it being suspicious; I wonder what they’d say if it were THEIR POI!) to say that X could not have gotten home, changed and gotten back on the street time to encounter AP. AP said that he got around the block "too fast." Then he admitted in March that he encountered X in or near his front yard. That pretty much negates the "timing" alibi. That means that AP took longer to reach the spot where he encountered X (i.e., well east of where he said he went) and also requires less time for X to arrive in his front yard, as opposed to some point on Maple Street south of Jackson.)

The one thing that this relationship provides AP is insight into X’s motives. AP stated to someone earlier this year that he apparently knows for a fact that X lied to me during our 2006 meeting in order to get me to "go away". X had known of me for over seven years by the time we met on September 27, 2006. I had handed him all of my research before our meeting, so he knew how much work I had done and how deep I was able to dig for facts. Did he think that someone like me would accept a pack of bold faced lies and "go away" when there were sources out there that disproved X’s answers (which I eventually located). Apparently so. But whatever the case, X and AP are apparently pretty cozy.

Mike

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:27 pm

Hi-

In terms of speech patterns, he uses the word "rather" in his 1969 letter to the editor in describing the consequences of a failure of the Chron to yield to the author’s will and stop supporting the causes of young college students in the Bay Area (the same type of people Z was murdering). He claimed it could get "rather expensive"…

When he was asked to describe his life in an article in the 2000s, he stated, "It has all been rather exciting…"

He uses the word "shall" in (as an example) a letter he wrote in the 1950s.

These British-isms are to be expected, however, since his own relationship with England started at least in 1947 but may actually have begun in his childhood, since both his and one of his brothers’ middle names were British in origin.

Mike

Mike, thats interesting. But "rather" and "shall" are fairly common words that most people use. I was aksing about the phrase Zodiac used "rather messy", which is unusual.

Can you show me these handwriting examples from Mr.X:

A lower case "k", a lower case "m", a lower case "r" and a capital "I"?

I think Mr. X wrote a book, and he has written articles and you may have some letters from him.

Can you show me if he used words like "radians", "rather messy", "trigger mech", "This is", "contrary to what they say", "to prove that", "around in the snow"?

Can you show me if he used any of the same words and phrases Zodiac did?

In Bonus Fides, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:20 am

AK Wilks,

Don’t have the answers right now but I will re-read his Autobiography again and look for those or similar phrases.

I don’t have much in terms of exemplars, especially not cursive.

This is Z vs. X exemplars ( 35 years apart…mind you) of a cursive "To"

"X"

"Z"

mike_r, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:25 pm

Hi Ak-

Well, in the writings of a man like this, where do you expect to find references to a "triger mech" or radians? Do you know who this guy is?

I’ve never seen "rather messy" but the bigger picture is that in "Radians and Inches," editor Mark Hewitt wrote a pretty extensive article about how Z was apparently CLEARLY associated with The UK. Mr. X uses the type of minimization that is common over there, like "rather." There are many more instances of British-isms in the article and certainly, Mr. X has STRONG ties to the UK.

I never ask other researchers to send me their research and I am not going to go down the road of sending this man’s hANDwriting to people. I want to point out again that the only writing I have both postdates the z era AND is in all caps.

The main thing to remember is that the same man who was stopped by SFPD on the night of the Stine murder also imported Hartnell’s car ANd once employed the owner of that car. Stuff like DNA and possibly other physical evidence can be misleading (as we’ve seen, right?) but the man who is lying about where he was on the night of the Stine murder seems awful suspicious to me. What is he covering up? Why would a man like this lie about that night? This is what you should be asking yourself.

Mike

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:57 pm

What I have learned from personal experience in over 1,000 criminal cases (and maybe 300 civil, business, entertainment, contracts, malpractice and family law cases) is that people lie. All the time. For all kinds of reasons, major and minor. Guilty people lie, but so do innocent people. Defendants lie, criminals lie like crazy, prosecutors lie, police lie, witnesses lie, husbands lie, wives lie, doctors lie, patients lie, corporations lie, even victims lie sometimes.

The implication your making is that if Mr. X lied he must be guilty, or is probably guilty. Maybe. First it is not crystal clear to me he lied. But lets say he did. A lie could imply guilt and should be investigated by police. I agree with you on that. But many, many times a lie is to cover up something else.

Maybe he was out there that night and lied about it. You make a fairly good case for that possibility. But maybe he lied because he was having an affair with a woman and was walking back from her place. Maybe he lied because he was doing something that night he didn’t want known to the police and public. Maybe he lied because as a business man and public figure, he didn’t want his name dragged into a murder case, for fear of bad publicity, for fear of being wrongly accused as a suspect, for fear of being subjected to numerous interviews and questions. Maybe he lied because as a conservative and libertarian he he does not trust the government and indeed fears it, and wants no part in a murder case as a possible suspect who admits he was at the scene, or even the time and trouble involved as a mere witness. Maybe he is selfish, and cares less about helping to solve a murder and more about not being subjected to interviews and court proceedings as a witness.

Also, IMO, if a POI was Zodiac, you should be able to read a book he wrote and come up with word and phrase matches between Zodiac and the POI. If you can’t, then you need to consider that he may not be Zodiac.

There is little that anyone at a message board can do to help you. You have used your excellent research skills and your tenacity (with some help from IBF) to put together an interesting case against your POI, one that many consider compelling. The problem you have, as I see it, is SFPD has not yet publicly admitted that they have very little confidence in the stamp DNA. Until they do, I think most of Law Enforcement, the media and the Zodiac research world will largely dismiss your POI because they think what ABC News said is true, "he was cleared by DNA."

If you can put together several compelling handwriting matches, for example checkmark lower case "r" ‘s, three stroke "K" ‘s lower case or capital, five stroke "M" ‘s lower case or capital, short tops and bottoms on capital "I" ‘s, that might interest law enforcement, in particular if you can combine with an analysis that shows Mr. Z and Zodiac used the same words and phrases like "around in the snow", "rather messy", "contrary to what they say", "to prove", etc. That could help to renew LE interest in your man.

The other thing is to let LE and media know that it appears SFPD has very little confidence in the DNA. To help you with that, I will let you use me as a reference for the fact that this is true, and if push comes to shove I would privately give you the name of the detective the SFPD told this to, if that would significantly help.

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:10 pm

If you can put together several compelling handwriting matches, for example checkmark lower case "r" ‘s, three stroke "K" ‘s lower case or capital, five stroke "M" ‘s lower case or capital, short tops and bottoms on capital "I" ‘s, that might interest law enforcement…

I still say…look to the lowercase "q".

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:47 pm

If you can put together several compelling handwriting matches, for example checkmark lower case "r" ‘s, three stroke "K" ‘s lower case or capital, five stroke "M" ‘s lower case or capital, short tops and bottoms on capital "I" ‘s, that might interest law enforcement…

I still say…look to the lowercase "q".

I was just giving a few examples of letters I think are unique to Zodiac, that a POI should match.

Can you post or send me a Zodiac "q" and tell me what you think is unique about it?

Other than that let us return this thread to the topic of Mr. X.

In Bonus Fides, Subject: Mr. X written " Best" vs. Donna Lass X-mas card "Best Wishes" Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:52 pm

Mr X

Possible Z Card to family of Donna Lass

In Bonus Fides, Subject: Mr. X written g and Zodiac cursive g from 07/31/69 SF Examiner Letter Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:16 pm

Mr. X written lower case "g". Look how it stops, almost exactly like the Z cursive lower case g, creating a "period" then he continues it.

Zodiac 07/31/69 SF Examiner letter- cursive lower case g

tahoe27, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:52 am

If you can put together several compelling handwriting matches, for example checkmark lower case "r" ‘s, three stroke "K" ‘s lower case or capital, five stroke "M" ‘s lower case or capital, short tops and bottoms on capital "I" ‘s, that might interest law enforcement…

I still say…look to the lowercase "q".

I was just giving a few examples of letters I think are unique to Zodiac, that a POI should match.

Can you post or send me a Zodiac "q" and tell me what you think is unique about it?

Other than that let us return this thread to the topic of Mr. X.

It seems "q" might have been a little awkward for him and he drew them like little 8’s.

Any chances of an example of X’s lowercase q?

mike_r, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Fri Aug 05, 2011 7:35 pm

Hi AK-

You mentioned the fact that people lie all the time. I think that it is important that the context of Mr. X’s lies be brought forward. In June 2006, I was minding my own business when "another Zodiac researcher" decided he wanted to speak to X because it is the divine right of all Z researchers to speak to my POI (even though I never express any interest in contacting their POI’s, either because I have no desire or right to do so or because their suspect is dead and you can say whatever you want about them). Since this had happened in the past and I am never able to dissuade people from rattling this man’s cage, I played along and composed some questions for the researcher to ask. During the interview, X mused that if he could only meet me face to face, he could clear everything up and convince me that I had the wrong man, etc.

I have never viewed it as being my place to cross the line and play detective in real life by trying to get the truth out of someone. I simply did not have the background for such questioning and had always hoped that the police would undertake this, since it is their role to assume not my own. They never did even after seven years of waiting, especially after the DNA. (Plus the fact that I was assured that "people like this" don’t become serial killers, etc.) So after a bit of consideration, I took a deep breath and decided to give this man an opportunity to explain himself by dragging myself out to SF from NJ on my own dime and sitting down with him.

To make a long story short, when I arrived at his office, his "second" came downstairs and took me aside. He told me that Mr. X’s memory was none too good, and that I should "take it easy" on him. Having a conscience, I immediately felt comsumed with guilt that I was even there; so much time had been wasted since 1999 that apparently Mr. X was not in any condition to answer questions by 2006. I readily agreed to take it easy and said that I only wanted to ask him some very simple questions.

My first one was to ask him where he was on the night of the Stine murder. Remember that an SFPD officer placed Mr. X (at that time) somewhere on Maple Street shortly after the Stine murder. X said that he "could not recall" where he was that night but that he thought he "should have been" in England. He said that he regretted that he could not locate his possport from those days, etc.

So he started out by immediately contradicting Officer Pelissetti’s version of events. If you are a law abiding citzen and were sudenly caught up in one of the most famous cases in the history of your city, you’d think you’d remember being spoken to by the police that night. But he claimed that he did not.

My next question was what firearms he had owned and registered in his life. He told me that not only had never never registerer a firearm, he had never so much as touched a gun in his entire life.

In January 2010, I was miraculously able to locate a yearbook that described the training people in X’s military class in WW II would have received. One of the photos was of a line of cadets taking target practice with a .45. Now, X is not one of those cadets in the photo but the photos showed the type of training that EVERY, SINGLE cadet received in those days. People I have spoken to have laughed and scoffed at the possibility that someone would go through even non-combat training in WW II and not be exposed to some small arms training. Even cooks and medics could fire a gun!

I asked him about a building he had purchased in Europe that had a huge crossed-circle in glass on the facade. His name appears directly over the crossed-circle and that relationship was emphasized in a cropped photo on his website at the time of just the crossed-circle and his name. What appeared to me to be a giant representation of his last initial encircled the crossed-circle, thus seemingly intermeshing his persona with the Z symbol. He chucked and said that I was "seeing what I wanted to see" and that the "giant letter" was nothing more than a symbol that had been on the building when he purchased it.

A month of two later, I located an article with a DIRECT quote from X in quotation marks in it that stated specifically (and this was shortly after he had purchased the building) that he intended to put a "giant representation of his last initial" around the "circle" on the front of his building. It’s all there in black and white and quotation marks.

When I left our meeting, I felt that I had identified the wrong man. I also felt tremendous guilt. Then I started doing research and uncovering a web of deceit. (I went into the meeting ripe for the taking, since I had presented X with my completely researched and fully documented report. I expected the truth from him and was caught completely unaware by his apparent strategy.) I then saw, over the course of the next two years, article after article describing X as being "spry" for his age and even how he was taking lessons on how to play a complex musical instrument in 2009. Anyone who knows anything about dementia knows that the first thing that is affected is short-term memory. A person who had dementia in 2006 would not be taking lessons on playing a musical instrument in 2009.

I realized that I had been had! And the deceit and betrayal was enormous and well-planned down to using "dementia" as the underlying reason for X’s bad memory. My friend Jim described it as a performance worthy of Machiavelli. (He walked out more convinced that I was onto something, desipte the fact that I thought I was looking at the wrong man after the meeting.) After all, X had asked to meet with me! I did not seek his audience in any way. Why invite someone to meet and then lie? If you think that this is behavior that is suitable for one of the wealthiest men in SF, you are in thin company. I am certain that if I went to one of this man’s country clubs and told his friends all of the facts that tie X into the case and explained that he was being deceptive in answering simple minded questions about the case when HE invited me to come out to visit so he could "clear the air," these men would not be saying that such behavior is to be "expected" from a man who some describe as "elegant" and "presidential," if aloof.

The bottom line is that since it was he who had initiated the meeting, he owed me truthful answers to my questions. Period. Without his offer, there would have beem no meeting and no questions; nothing was forced upon him. He chose to meet and he chose to be dishonest.

Like someone said earlier, something stinks here. The crowning jewel is that I was supposed to meet X on September 22, 2006. At the last minute he said he’d be out of town that weekend and begged off until the next Wednesday. It took me a few days to realize that Wednesday was September 27, 2006, the 37th anniversary of the Lake Berryessa attack. And on the Saturday after we were supposed to meet (i.e., September 23), X was at a local sports venue fielding random questions from the crowd on how to get started in a certain sport. He was therefore not "out of town." How does someone with "dementia" stand in front of a crowd and answer random questions? They don’t.

Mike

In Bonus Fides, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:10 am

Thanks for adding that Mike, it is certainly just the tip of the proverbial iceberg with respect to the lies Mr. X seems to have told you & others as to his activities and whereabouts on Oct 11/1969.

The part that REALLY bugs me, having just re-read Mr. X’s autobiography, is as follows;

1) Mr. X said " I should have been overseas" on the night of Oct 11, 1969. In some papers I have discovered of one of Mr. X’s clients to him, a response to a question from a client in the UK, receives the information that " Mr. X ( as of March 1970- 6 months after the Stine murder) rarely travels from The States to the UK and does so ON QUARTER’S END"

This would be Mar30/ Apr1 , June 30/July 1,Sep 30/Oct 1 and Dec 31/ Jan 1.

For a guy with MANY business interests in the US versus one in the UK , I have a hard time seeing him spending two weeks in West Bromwich with respect to the 3rd Quarter results of his UK company in 1969. This is especially important because of the fact that Mr.X did not acquire a controlling interest in this particular enterprise until early 1970!!

I would like to do a FOIA request with the UK in regard to the 1969-70 entry and exit dates of Mr. X from the customs and immigration crown ministry, see if tht contradicts his statements.

2) This is a biggie;

Mr X claims to Mike Rodelli to have " not been walking his dog in Presidio Heights" the night Foukes and Pellisetti claim to have seen a man fitting his discription, walking a dog in the shadows, less than a block from the crimescene and Mr. x’s residence.

Furthermore, Mr. X claimed to Mike that he " never walked a dog in his life"

I am calling bullshit as one particular "story" in his autobiography blatantly contradicts the story he told Mike and he implies he has had many dogs ( prior to and after , Jack, which he had during the 1960’s).

As a lifelong dog owner myself, I can not believe that he NEVER walked one of his dogs. The bond he suggests with Jack can only happen with a normal, adjusted dog and exercise/walks are part of this equation.

Thanks for adding that Mike, it is certainly just the tip of the proverbial iceberg with respect to the lies Mr. X seems to have told you & others as to his activities and whereabouts on Oct 11/1969.

The part that REALLY bugs me, having just re-read Mr. X’s autobiography, is as follows;

1) Mr. X said " I should have been overseas" on the night of Oct 11, 1969. In some papers I have discovered of one of Mr. X’s clients to him, a response to a question from a client in the UK, receives the information that " Mr. X ( as of March 1970- 6 months after the Stine murder) rarely travels from The States to the UK and does so ON QUARTER’S END"

This would be Mar30/ Apr1 , June 30/July 1,Sep 30/Oct 1 and Dec 31/ Jan 1.

For a guy with MANY business interests in the US versus one in the UK , I have a hard time seeing him spending two weeks in West Bromwich with respect to the 3rd Quarter results of his UK company in 1969.

I would like to do a FOIA request with the UK in regard to the 1969-70 entry and exit dates of Mr. X from the customs and immigration crown ministry, see if tht contradicts his statements.

2) This is a biggie;

Mr X claims to Mike Rodelli to have " not been walking his dog in Presidio Heights" the night Foukes and Pellisetti claim to have seen a man fitting his discription, walking a dog in the shadows, less than a block from the crimescene and Mr. x’s residence.

Furthermore, Mr. X claimed to Mike that he " never walked a dog in his life"

I can not post the last part of the article where he finishes the story as it could ID him and I cant edit it out.

"As I got closer he turned toward me, lowered his head, and walked to where I had stopped. I said " Jack, I told you not to leave the ranch today!" With that he ran back accross the bridge and into his kennel and wouldn’t come out the rest of the day. I never had a dog like him and I never expect to be lucky enough to have another like Jack."

I wonder if Pellisetti remembers the breed, size or colour of Mr.X’s/ POI’s dog that night??? He should be asked in a non leading way and see if matches "Jack".

IBF

mike_r, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:30 am

Hi IBF-

You are right. I’ve done so much research that I sometimes forget what I’ve learned over the years. X did say in our meeting that he had never walked a dog in his life. (He had never come within twenty feet of a gun, either! We saw how that worked out.) That is 100% correct, and I had completely forgotten about that. I know I did mention this on other boards in the past, so it is not a "recovered memory," LOL! And you bring up an excellent point about the bond he had with his dog. Is he so aloof that he won’t even walk man’s best friend after gushing about his relationship with that animal? He also had very strong bonds with another animal he owned. I feel like he bonded better with animals than people. He goes on in print about a different animal than Jack in glowing terms more so than I ever have seen him talk about a person…

I just spoke to Mr. Walter of the Vidocq Society and he begs to differ about the issue of phraseology in the letters. When Z wrote, according to Walter, he was of a different mindset and essentially a different "persona" than when he would write as himself. Walter does not agree with the premise that you can look in Z’s letters for phrases and then be assured that if you have identified the right person, you will find him writing about "fiddling and farting around," etc. It doesn’t necessarily work that way, just like geographic profiling may have been knocked on its ear in this case due to the extrordinary bond between Mr. X’s birthplace and the city of Vallejo. It doesn’t always happen the way they say it does in textbooks…Z may not have played by their rules.

Mike

mike_r, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:35 pm

Hi-

I went back to my notes from 2006 and the exact quote was that he said he had only walked a dog "twice in his life" and that he NEVER walked around his own neighborhood. He did not specify whether or not October 11, 1969 was one of the two nights in his life on which he walked a dog or not.

Mike

In Bonus Fides, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Sat Aug 06, 2011 6:23 pm

There are a few other things that are bothering me after re-reading Mr. X’s Autobiography and the recent research/exploration in to a Vallejo/Mr. X connection ,other than it’s sister city status ( the only such relationship in 1968), that I have done.

They are as follows;

1) In 1967 , Mr. X "created" a Car Show and Exhibition for a Vehicle model that he was the sole distributor for the West Coast from SF to Alaska.
The event continues to this day and was held during various times of the year, but mostly in Apr/July/Sep.
It was held at the Solano County Fairgrounds in Vallejo. Mr.X functioned as Organizer from inception until the early 70’s.
This MODEL of this BRAND was driven by one suspected Zodiac victim.

2) In 1968, Mr. X claims in his Autobiography, to have over 100 dealerships through his distributorship of this BRAND ( and others, in this instance).
There are locations in SF, Vallejo, Redwood Meadows, Napa, Walnut Creek, Oakland and Berkeley, among others.
The Vallejo location , I believe, was at about 800 Admiral Callaghan Way, near the Solano County Fairgrounds ( which I will come back to again!)
The Napa location still exists at 466 Soscal Avenue, which is within eyeshot of the (former) Napa Car Wash, where Z took credit for LB.
It is also where Bryan Hartnell’s….I mean….Bruce Lin Christie’s VW Kharmann Ghia ended up after having the door removed, as it was the Import
Service & Sales specialist ( maybe only!) in Napa at the time.

3) Mr. X had/has another hobby that causes/caused him to frequent Vallejo, which also occurred at the Solano County Fairgrounds multiple times a year but
always on July 4th/5th weekend. He also had ANOTHER hobby that was related to his primary business that had frequent races at Solano County
Fairground from 1959-1966 when he quit that particular hobby on a full time basis.

4) Mr. X is currently "Boasting" on his primary business’ website about his latest current NorCal foray into exclusive brands of vehicles;

His ‘New" premises in ……Vallejo!!

Despite how "little" knowledge of Vallejo ( his claim) he still went back into the very competitive Vallejo market at 92 Years of age. Why??

I was also bothered by a rather HUGE omission from said Autobiography of Mr. X, which would and SHOULD have been one of the biggest events of anyone’s life….were it true and had it happened in 1947 as Mr. X claims.

His claims were among the first EVER and are singled out as being one of two people ( at the time) to have claimed to have seen a UFO AND to KNOW FOR A FACT that the UFO was cognizant beings from another planet!!!

I edited this actual report from NICAP:

Case # xxx — July 5, near Auburn, California: XXXXX XXXXX, an automobile salesman in Alameda and a former Navy pilot for five years, reported that he and a group of 50 other witnesses had watched a triangular formation of disc-like objects near Auburn at 2:30 p.m. PST, flying south.

XXXXX said that the discs, seen first directly overhead, "appeared to be made of metal and looked like bright silver." He added that their round outline was clearly distinguishable. The objects were in view "for three or four minutes," he said.

"I have seen a lot of airplanes, and these were not airplanes. The only clue I could get as to their height, size and speed was the fact that they disappeared one at a time, high in the sky, and not over the horizon. This effect would be caused if they were very, very large and very high, and flying at a terrific speed — l,000 miles an hour," he said.

XXXXX was one of the very few UFO witnesses in the 1947 wave — one of two, to be exact — who openly expressed the opinion that the objects seen could have been "space ships."

If you zoom out on the Google Maps link below ( about 4 times); The location of the sighting was near " Lake of The Pines" on the way towards Lake Tahoe ( where X has had property since the early 60’s) and on the left of the map, at about the same latitude, is Lake Berryessa and Napa, where Mr. X had/has properties since 1960.

http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&q=aubu … CC8Q8gEwAQ

The above NICAP report was one hell of a life changing experience, an outright lie, a publicity stunt ( and VERY Z like as it got major headlines), or….God only knows what!!??

The fact remains that it is VERY strange behavior ( especially in 1947….PRE ROSWELL!!) and I wonder where the reports of the "50 other people" are and exactly why NO OTHERS chose to come forward or report it??

I believe this also exposes ANOTHER lie of Mr. X to Mike Rodelli where he claimed no knowledge of (??) Lake Berryessa little lone having EVER been there and stating he was unfamiliar with Vallejo and the greater Napa area, where he maintained a home(s) and/or business(es).

I also want to add that for a 92 year old man with "Dementia", he was still able to sail through Norway and the Aleutien Islands on a private charter for 6 weeks with 25 + family ( at over $50,000/week!!!) on a luxury yacht in late 2010 (not an easy go for most 35 year olds…even in Luxury!) and was a judge at a VERY prominent Concours event that ran over 3 days in July 2011.

IBF

In Bonus Fides, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:07 pm

I forgot to add something else from his Autobiography which has DISTINCT implications/connections to the Z case, in my opinion.

Mr. X served in the US Navy from 1941-46 and was a Lt. Col upon his discharge (honorable) in 1946.
He served in the VR 11 Squadron of the Navy Air Transport Service captaining MD DC4’s in the Pacific Theatre from 1942-45.

As Captain ( "This is your Captain speaking….) of a DC4 NATS crew he was responsible for flight charting, planning and navigation amongst other duties.
He recalls an incident near Guam in 1944 where he relinquished control of the aircraft to a co-pilot/trainee and recounts how " he was awoken and rushed in to the cockpit where the crew had become lost".

Mr. X discusses how , other than saving the day of course, he asked the pilots about their "inability" to perform "celestial navigation" which was a required low visibilty technique for navigation by the stars.

Another REQUIRED/ MANDATORY element of all Navy pilots, amongst others, was their knowledge and usage of Navy Cipher #4 with respect to all communications in theatre. The Germans had the revolutionary code breaking machine, Enignma, in use and all codes/ciphers except Navy #4 , had been broken at this time.

For Mr. X to claim he had no knowledge of the Zodiac, Celestial Navigation/Constellations, Codes/Ciphers and small arms/ hand to hand combat training as a former Captain of a DC4 and VR 11 Squadron Member…….is farcical and an outright insult to SOCIETY’s collective intelligence.

I wonder if he would have had/ has the balls to make these same claims to LE, or under oath in a civil or criminal proceeding??

I think LE should try the angle of him as a WITNESS to the events of Oct 11/69 and confirm/deny his presence in the city and at or near the crime scene.
Maybe an official approaching him as a POSSIBLE WITNESS may be the way to go.

If he had a "sudden recollection" of being in SF and/or Presidio Heights or did not co-operate, either way, he would appear that much more suspicious than being interviewed as a POI/ Suspect would be viewed.

As a respectable member of society and prominent citizen , how would not co-operating in a murder investigation look???

I also wonder about the recent publicity Mr. X garnered with a "front page event" happening at his Business. I wonder if this was an insurance scam/publicity stunt for the car’s owner and Mr. X’s Business’ mutual benefit?? The Owner had/has financial problems and Mr. X LOVES free publicity , as it usually translates into profit.

IBF

mike_r, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Sun Aug 14, 2011 9:41 am

Hi-

I was going through some notes today and came across an example of Mr. X using an unusual term that Zodiac used. A few years ago, someone met Mr. X at some social or business function and X started talking about how he used to organize "road races." This phrase hit the individual to whom he was speaking, who is familair with the case, like a ton of bricks. The phrase "holding road races" from 10/13/69 is an unusual one and has an organizational rin to it.

Mike

In Bonus Fides, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:16 pm

Mike,

He basically OWNS the term "Road Races"!

Another BIG example is from the letter Mr. X wrote to the editor of The SF Chronicle in which he uses the phrase " Shall be rather expensive for the citizens of Northern California"

SHALL, RATHER EXPENSIVE, and CITIZEN in the same sentence/paragraph as talking about "Young people lying dead or wounded in the street".

I have found something else that is very, very interesting to me and ( dont worry Morf, wont ID Mr. X) and may help shed some light on one of the famous Z symbols.

I believe I can tie it to Mr. X and/or one of his "businesses and/or hobbies" directly but I may need some help from someone in the US and , more specifically, some Californians, Washingtonians ( State) and Idahoans. ( hope I got those right!LOL!)

, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Sat Aug 27, 2011 3:51 pm

Mike,

A number of months ago I read The Murder Room, and was disappointed that they barely spoke about your potential success in identifying Z, though it nevertheless was an important milestone. I was hoping that media would pick up on this statement, and therefore at least do a story on X or pursue the matter since that time, but it doesn’t look like it’s happened. I suspect Richard Walter made the statement partly to open things up on this matter, and open the doors for the media to poke around.

Can you update us on whether you’ve had dealings with the Vidocq Society and/or Richard Walter on this subject since the book came out, or whether any media has contacted you? One would think that if a CBS affiliate would do a story on Barto, then somebody would at least want to take a swipe at this one as the statement gives them the right to even directly question him. Would you know if the Vidocq Society have any interest in officially discussing the Zodiac Case, or if any jurisdiction interested in presenting it to them? Do any other Vidocq Members agree with Walter, and have they seen your casework? Any of them disagree?

mike_r, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Sat Aug 27, 2011 6:56 pm

Hi BBlanco-

You hit the nail on the head with your post. Walter had told me that once the book was published someone that knew him in the media or LE would come forward and start asking questions about my research. It never happened. I don’t know of even one inquiry. As far as the media are concerned, I can explain that easily: X is too wealthy for them to do a story on my research, and to undertake the research necessary to prove my case is too much work for them. They want easily digestible stories that are already solved and for which they just have to interview the principals, put the show together and then move on to the next stop on the tour. My story does not lend itself to that format. I spoke to someone from CBS a few years ago and the man couldn’t run from my story fast enough because of the libel considerations.

As for the authorities, the only thing I can think of is that they believe the DNA is legit and that X is ruled out. (There is a whole thread on this site dedicated to the DNA on which I posted many comments, so I will defer to that thread.) Or they simply don’t believe Walter is right on this one. Don’t know. Walter has a huge track record in helping to solve cold cases and he does not put his reputation on the line for just anyone. So we’ll see who is right in the end…

Mike

, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:54 am

Ok, thanks for the reply Mike.

mike_r, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:47 am

Hi-

CONTINUED FROM SHEPARD/HARTNELL THREAD ON NEW VERSION OF LB SKETCH BY SFPD ARTIST

There is another way to solve cases that actually existed in the 1960s, long before there was any such thing as DNA evidence. It is called investigating live POI’s who lie through their teeth as to where they were on the night of one of the murders. Richard Walter says you solve a case by developing a profile and finding the person who fits that profile. I have someone in mind along those lines who fits the "power-assertive" profile and who most assuredly lied to me as to where he was on 10/11/1969.

Mike

, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:09 am

Hi-

CONTINUED FROM SHEPARD/HARTNELL THREAD ON NEW VERSION OF LB SKETCH BY SFPD ARTIST

There is another way to solve cases that actually existed in the 1960s, long before there was any such thing as DNA evidence. It is called investigating live POI’s who lie through their teeth as to where they were on the night of one of the murders. Richard Walter says you solve a case by developing a profile and finding the person who fits that profile. I have someone in mind along those lines who fits the "power-assertive" profile and who most assuredly lied to me as to where he was on 10/11/1969.

Mike

I have talked to you before on AMW, we are very close to the same theory and much kudos to you, however, I want to tell you a story about four wayward over achieving brothers from across the water. one with osteomylitis that would cause a lumbering walk that is the key to open wide, the story of Zodiac. Contact me

mike_r, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:35 pm

Hi-

Are you the same guy who said there was a fifth brother who was locked in Mr. X’s basement for safe keeping and whose name was the same as one of Mr. X’s granddaughters? (Actually, there was no "fifth brother" and you had taken the name of one of the granddaughters and created this entire fantastic story out of whole cloth.) If so, I doubt our talks would be productive.

Mike

mike_r, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:47 am

Hi-

I’ve slept on your offer. I have always considered all the possibilities within the family. X is the one who fits the profile. Shepard and Hartnell never mentioned anything about a limp. More importantly the Stine eyewitness did not state that anything caught his attention about the way Z walked up Cherry Street. The only such reference is by Fouke, who said that Z had a "loping gait," not a "lumbering" one. But if you have SUBTANTIATED information about one of the other brothers having a medical condition that may explain some aspect of the case, you may IM me from this site or post the info here.

Mike

, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:16 pm

AMW had a lot of eyes watching, including your friend, smoke and mirrors
Try Bjarne for the disease, it is well known, since a child
But the older one, not the oldest, the one in the NW. He looks like the Stine POI. Find the right photo and he is wearing a watch ….like the Bates watch….exactly like it. Draw glasses over his face and you have the composite.

Sleep on it

, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:34 pm

Did you say once that Mr X was walking his dog on Maple and was interviewed by LE that night?

What if his brother intended to do the deed at that corner, saw Mr X, his brother, knew that he could ID him, had Stine go to the next block. Did the deed, not knowing the kids upstairs were watching him, feeling safe because he knew the area, walked back to the spot last seen near Maple but he goes into his brothers nearby home and watches from the top of the house as X is interviewed. A little joke on his part to bring his brother into the Most Dangerous Game.

Loping gait? All were athletes but the name I gave was the least achiever of the four and had the disease, all served in the Navy or Merchants but while the other three were super successful the other was not so much and a bigger risk taker as to dangerous activities

Cant say much more without showing photos and complete bios

mike_r, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:34 pm

Hi-

Mr. X looks just like the sketch and wore glasses at the time. Timex watches were everywhere in the 1960s. Don’t know where you are going with that one, since you seem to be focussing on the youngest one, not the third one, but now you are talking about the "third one" from the NW. How does he figure in? How can one brother look like the Stine sketch but then all of a sudden other one was seen "limping" away from the crime scene? Are you saying they were both there? The youngest one was pretty bald on top in a 1971 photo. He’d have to wear the proverbial "crewcut wig." Yes, he is probably the lesser achiever of the bunch but he was not a complete slouch; it seems to be a matter of degrees of success. I saw the obituary that you must have read. Pretty long list of accomplishments for an "underachiever." He certainly lived in a nice area when he retired and belonged to a country club and a yacht club, as well as starting two businesses. Some loser!

The other problem is that the profile from one of the best profilers in the business says that Z killed because he both possessed and was obsessed with power. Z was not an "underachiever;" in fact, he was the exact opposite. The notion that "Zodiac was a loser who was compensating for his feelings of inadequacy" profile is, in my mind, an outdated notion based on Walter’s newer profile of Z as a "power-assertive" killer. Seeing Mr. X out walking the dog at the corner and then running in the house while X is speaking to the police and then watching from X’s upper floors is like something from a movie. I’ve considered various scenarios similar to that over the years but I concluded that my ideas along these lines were better left to the realm of fiction.

Just my thoughts on all of this…I still feel like Mr. X is the most likely one at this point.

Mike

bentley, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:44 pm

Hi –

I have not seen a photo of Mr. X from the Z period where he did not have sideburns (common for the times) to the bottom of his ears. Has anyone else? Is this something that would have been missed in both composites, or did he shave them off?

, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:51 am

I see. I just have trouble with Mr X taking a taxi to Maple and Washington, having Stine go to the next block, shoot him, clean the car with blood soaked shirt, without getting any on himself, walking to his house to get the dog, being seen along the way by the cop. Getting the dog, walking back out of the house, down Maple, then being stopped by the other cop and interviewed without having blood on him. If you know anything about blood splatters, he would of had discharge of flesh, blood and bone specks on him and the smell of cordite from firing a gun in a closed car.
Could not have been Mr X as he did not have the time to clean himself, get the dog and walk it to Maple. The killer had to have been someone that he knew and could ID if Zodiac would have shot Stine where he was able to see. The only conclusion as to why Stine was killed at Cherry is because, Zodiac felt that he could be caught if he shot Stine at Washington and Maple. Funny that he walked around behind on Jackson, from where you say Mr Z was. Why did he not go any other direction? Because he had a place to hide and watch, thus making him liable to be a relative of X. When Zodiac wrote that he talked with cops that night, he was using his brother, knowing that the confusion would make it easier for him to wilt away.
That and the sideburns thing that no one reported has me thinking that you got the wrong guy but yet so very close.
You looked into the eyes of X, you should be able to tell if the truth is there or not. He wanted to meet you so that he could find out what you knew about his family because he was aware of what was going on and may have even wrote some of the letters himself to throw LE off his kin
Ask the Vellejo cop that kows who it is

Zamantha, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:24 pm

I see. I just have trouble with Mr X taking a taxi to Maple and Washington, having Stine go to the next block, shoot him, clean the car with blood soaked shirt, without getting any on himself, walking to his house to get the dog, being seen along the way by the cop. Getting the dog, walking back out of the house, down Maple, then being stopped by the other cop and interviewed without having blood on him. If you know anything about blood splatters, he would of had discharge of flesh, blood and bone specks on him and the smell of cordite from firing a gun in a closed car.
Could not have been Mr X as he did not have the time to clean himself, get the dog and walk it to Maple. The killer had to have been someone that he knew and could ID if Zodiac would have shot Stine where he was able to see. The only conclusion as to why Stine was killed at Cherry is because, Zodiac felt that he could be caught if he shot Stine at Washington and Maple. Funny that he walked around behind on Jackson, from where you say Mr Z was. Why did he not go any other direction? Because he had a place to hide and watch, thus making him liable to be a relative of X. When Zodiac wrote that he talked with cops that night, he was using his brother, knowing that the confusion would make it easier for him to wilt away.
That and the sideburns thing that no one reported has me thinking that you got the wrong guy but yet so very close.
You looked into the eyes of X, you should be able to tell if the truth is there or not. He wanted to meet you so that he could find out what you knew about his family because he was aware of what was going on and may have even wrote some of the letters himself to throw LE off his kin
Ask the Vellejo cop that kows who it is

AMW, so curious….how did you tap into your research? I know with Mike R’s research he put a lot of time and energy into it. Did you first read his research and then do your own on top of it. Or did you somehow fall into his brother as a POI. Is this a family you know or know of somehow? I’d be interested in hearing your information from the start… Also ask what Vallejo cop? If you can’t post it could you PM me? THX

mike_r, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Sun Nov 27, 2011 3:09 pm

Hi-

My research stands on its own two feet. As I read your rebuttal points all I can say to myself is that I’ve done A LOT more research than you probably realize. The issues you are raising about sideburns and time are not real issues. If you think they are you need to do a bit more digging on your own.

I did not need to look in X’s eyes to determine if he was telling me the truth. I can’t do that, anyway. I did research after our meeting that proves he lied time and time again that day. That is objective, not subjective proof, which is obviously more compelling.

Mike

, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:15 am

Name of Mr. X is * ** See more info about him and his pics in Google or Yahoo. There are even little article about him in Wikipedia. Mike Rodelli’s site disappeared from the Internet after he published a name of Mr. X on a site and then representatives and lawyers of ** snatched on him. Earlier ** agreed to make comparative analysis DNA and, as expected, gene codes his and the Zodiac’s didn’t coincide. Rodelli didn’t calm down on it and continued to insist on the site that "actually the police and FBI have no DNA of Zodiac" (also some other authors of theories about the suspects spoke so).

EDITED BY MORF- DO NOT EVER POST THE NAME OF MR. X HERE ON THIS WEBSITE

AK Wilks, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:35 am

The SFPD told another law enforement agency that they currently "HAVE NO CONFIDENCE" that they actually have real DNA from the Zodiac.

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com … ence-in-it

, Subject: Re: Mr. X background Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:11 pm

morf13 – Sorry

AK Wilks – I read, that police have partially deciphered DNA of Zodiac, available for comparison. And that on a reverse side of one stamp were found filaments of the same color, what according to descriptions had the Zodiac, it is not 100% proof, but it increases confidence, that it valid his saliva and his hair. Therefore I agree with point 1 in your post by link – if this DNA coincides with DNA of any suspect (for example, mine ), the Zodiac will be found. And it except fingerprints and handwriting. And I also agree that it can be not the full truth, I know from another criminal stories, that the police sometimes keeps any "default zones" until the real criminal be found.

I wasn’t sure where to post this but I suppose this is as good a thread as any. This is Qvale featured in a whiskey advertisement that was found in the Nevada State Journal, April 15, 1955. I like it for the composite-esque quality of the drawing.

Hi-

Thanks for posting. Never saw this before. Notice how he is linked to "road racing."

Mike

I wasn’t sure where to post this but I suppose this is as good a thread as any. This is Qvale featured in a whiskey advertisement that was found in the Nevada State Journal, April 15, 1955. I like it for the composite-esque quality of the drawing.

Great find Seagull, and that drawing of KQ is, IMHO, indeed a good match to the Stine sketch.
It is obvious that he has a widows peak
It was from 1955 add 14 year on that, shall we say 1/2 kg pr year?

Maybe someone could make a side by side image?

Well, good thing he wasn’t driving the race cars.

In LUNCHES WITH MR. Q, Qvale said that his love affair with alcohol went no further than the occasional glass of wine at parties. He also claimed that he only ever tried one cigarette and it disgusted him so much that he never touched them again, so maybe he endorsed cigarettes as well? I guess you don’t get rich by turning down easy paychecks, but it’s kind of odd regardless.

Lunches is an interesting book, more so than the autobiography. For instance, there is a section that emphasizes how KQ liked to cultivate the media. It also states that he used to supply Herb Caen with cars whenever Caen went to the UK. It also reveals that the first article the Chron ever wrote about KQ’s business endeavors was on August 1, 1947. 1 Aug-69 was the date on which Z demanded they print the cipher sections. That date also has to do with EVB’s crazy marriage story in like 1962 but I think you’ll agree that the overall case against KQ is MUCH stronger than Stewart’s. That is, of course, in addition to Z murdering on the date KQ’s mother died (December 20th) and the date his father was born (September 27th).

Mike

Seagull i have put those pics side by side but the damn thing says the files to big .. I will work out a way to post it
Da daa

Seems like all the photos I have seen (except when he was quite young) don’t show him with glasses…not that he couldn’t have put some on. Are there more photos of him with glasses?

here is an eraly 50’s phot of X with glassess..i like X but i think he is just too damn old..i looked into his kids some but they are too young

any how

http://www.forgottenfiberglass.com/wp-c … ds/647.jpg

Hi-

I am not giving details of all my original research but the notion that KQ looked "too old" is not a consideration based on the statements one of the witnesses made a few years ago. Remember the chronological age and appearance/perceived age can be two different things. If you like KQ, don’t let this worry you.

Mike

If you like KQ, don’t let this worry you.

That sounds suspiciously like "if the facts seem to indicate your hypothesis is incorrect, ignore the facts".

I know criminal investigation isn’t a science….oh, wait, it is, actually.

Hi JRob-

Yeah, it could sound that way, but it isn’t. I will say this: Anyone who cares to do their own research will find a trail of articles throughout the years, as I have, that consistently state that KQ looked and behaved like someone much younger than his years at any given time in his life. So this notion of him looking "too old" in 1969 is a non-starter
Mike

Mike, you get a lot of kudos from me on your work..I do like X..helluva interesting life and gillions upon gillions of dollars which could have been used to keep people quite for years upon years (that cop in stine homocide had toi have known exactly who that guy was)..X is a very worthy POI..