If we’re talking about the same sports car I think it’s known who it belonged to (some guy was doing a test drive in his girlfriend’s car – I think it’s mentioned either in the LHR report or in the FBI material), but not what make and model it was.

I personally can’t see KQ as Z trolling for victims in an easily recognizable car. But, yes, in a Team Z setting of some kind I suppose it’s possibly a clew. It would certainly be an interesting zynchronicity if the car turned out to be one of KQ’s imports.

Joe: I get a certain "vibe" from that letter myself. Can’t put my finger on it exactly, but it’s something. Then again I find it hard to judge it objectively – it’s a bit like being told that a man in an old photo was suspected of being Jack The Ripper, it gets creepy even though he may have been the nicest guy in the world and you know that very well, rationally.

yea your right..i am reading way to much into that Allard or what the heck it could be an MG..i dont remember but may be Mike R traced that aspect down and found the owners of that foreign sports car..i just cant really see X acting alone..he would have had to be involved in a conspiracy in my opinion..still he holds my interest and it appears he shows up or had the potential to be near all the potential crime sites..may be X and TK had something going on together..whatever the case X did have a very interesting life much like homer simpson…

I guess my biggest problem of X not Z is KJ, MM, BH did not report an accent??? and I am not even sure if X even had an accent but i would surmise he would have???..mike R would know and may be he will chime in

Hmmm…

KQ had lived in the US for most of life at the time of the Z murders. I’ve heard his voice (I believe there is a YouTube clip somewhere) and he didn’t have a discernible accent. If anything his voice was sort of bland, nondescript – not incompatible with a "monotonous" drone of the sort described by witnesses, in other words.

On that note, the "drawl" Hartnell describes (a sort of drawl but not like a southern drawl) is consistent with this "monotonous" quality for my money. And it’s a quality which fits well enough with a speaker who isn’t native but who has mastered the language to perfection over the years. In my opinion (I’m not an expert but I’m not a rank amateur either, I do have some experience with language/linguistics/phonology).

Let me add, in case anyone should be in doubt, that this – to me – is VERY hypothetical, not to say flimsy stuff. We have no idea what Z’s voice sounded like. Bryan Hartnell, who heard his voice better than anyone, has said he is far from sure he could recognize it years after the incident.

Hi-

Z had a slow manner of speaking. One suspect in the Napa police files was eliminated because he spoke too fast. In an old article about KQ’s dealership, the author suddenly remarks out of the blue (i.e., because it was so noticeable) about how slowly KQ spoke. This was WELL before 1969.

Mike

Hi-

Z had a slow manner of speaking. One suspect in the Napa police files was eliminated because he spoke too fast. In an old article about KQ’s dealership, the author suddenly remarks out of the blue (i.e., because it was so noticeable) about how slowly KQ spoke. This was WELL before 1969.

Mike

Hey Mike. Do you have a link to the article that made you start looking into KQ? I heard it’s a pretty strange read.
Okay back to the topic. I listen to a few metal bands from Norway and Sweden, you would be surprised how well they speak English. Most of them have a slight accent, but it’s barely noticeable. I wonder if he spoke slowly to diminish his accent.

Catching up on this thread!!!!

I agree with Phil- murderers actually can and do murder close to their homes, sometimes in their own neighborhoods. Can’t remember the name of the cross-dressing naval officer, the Canadian, that was recently busted (as in a few years ago)- but he murdered a woman right in his neighborhood. Happens very often.

And I personally am satisfied that the DNA in this case is a big fat red herring that shouldn’t be given any weight whatever. It has led us all astray long enough. It was not science fiction back in the sixties, as I have said time and again on these boards, being that two scientists won the Nobel in 1961 for DNA, it was featured in several "Popular Science" articles in the early sixties, never mind the voluminous literature about particulars being gleaned from saliva, such as blood type in the secreting population. Z was smart, was aware of science. Joe Blow on the street may not have known about these things, but Z was smart, and had scientific knowledge, and there was no biological material found on those first few envelopes PERIOD. Even if DNA wasn’t in use or even in imminent use by LE as a detection tool, saliva certainly was. If there is one myth in this case I would personally like to see buried once and for all, its this hoohah about the saliva (and by natural consequence, DNA) being something no one could have considered at the time, that it was some airy-fairy idea. BS! Its all over the literature, never mind mystery novels. I may have mentioned a story I found in a 1940’s issue of "Ebony" about a young black female forensics investigator who got a cigarette butt from a suspect and found out his blood type, and he was convicted largely on the basis of that evidence. IN THE FORTIES!!!!!!

Now, Back to KJ. I guess we can call him that now?

I find the connections between himself and the Stine scene extremely interesting. But I got nothing on the other scenes. But it occurred to me today that one thing could clinch it. WHAT IF THOSE UNCRACKED CIPHERS ARE IN another language? I was thinking KJ was Norwegian, am I mistaken? Whatever his native language is, that could be a possible starting point to solving the ciphers. I am sure I am not the first person to think this. Norse? Do you speak any of these Northern Euro languages?

Catching up on this thread!!!!

I agree with Phil- murderers actually can and do murder close to their homes, sometimes in their own neighborhoods. Can’t remember the name of the cross-dressing naval officer, the Canadian, that was recently busted (as in a few years ago)- but he murdered a woman right in his neighborhood. Happens very often.
8
And I personally am satisfied that the DNA in this case is a big fat red herring that shouldn’t be given any weight whatever. It has led us all astray long enough. It was not science fiction back in the sixties, as I have said time and again on these boards, being that two scientists won the Nobel in 1961 for DNA, it was featured in several "Popular Science" articles in the early sixties, never mind the voluminous literature about particulars being gleaned from saliva, such as blood type in the secreting population. Z was smart, was aware of science. Joe Blow on the street may not have known about these things, but Z was smart, and had scientific knowledge, and there was no biological material found on those first few envelopes PERIOD. Even if DNA wasn’t in use or even in imminent use by LE as a detection tool, saliva certainly was. If there is one myth in this case I would personally like to see buried once and for all, its this hoohah about the saliva (and by natural consequence, DNA) being something no one could have considered at the time, that it was some airy-fairy idea. BS! Its all over the literature, never mind mystery novels. I may have mentioned a story I found in a 1940’s issue of "Ebony" about a young black female forensics investigator who got a cigarette butt from a suspect and found out his blood type, and he was convicted largely on the basis of that evidence. IN THE FORTIES!!!!!!

Now, Back to KJ. I guess we can call him that now?

I find the connections between himself and the Stine scene extremely interesting. But I got nothing on the other scenes. But it occurred to me today that one thing could clinch it. WHAT IF THOSE UNCRACKED CIPHERS ARE IN another language? I was thinking KJ was Norwegian, am I mistaken? Whatever his native language is, that could be a possible starting point to solving the ciphers. I am sure I am not the first person to think this. Norse? Do you speak any of these Northern Euro languages?

Hey MM, just to clarify a few things:

Russell Williams was the Canadian Air Force Colonel you were referring to. When I said it goes against conventional wisdom to kill close to home, I didn’t mean that a lot of serial killers didn’t do it. But in many cases it has to do with cockiness clouding their intelligence. It’s interesting, now that you mention him, because he is a good example of someone who had all kinds of power, prestige, and money, but was willing to risk it all for his deviant thrills.

I’m not sure if you know this, but it’s my understanding that LE combined two different sources of DNA to create a partial, but it’s highly possible they combined strands from different people, hence totally screwing it up. It’s also possible, like you said, that DNA was planted. Eithrr way, it’s questionable to say the least when it comes to exonerating suspects. The thing I don’t get about the DNA issue, is whether or not LE checks Z suspects against Cheri Jo Bates’ murderer’s DNA. Does anyone know this? We do know they have reliable DNA for that one.

Finally, in regards to the ciphers being written in Norwegian, I’ve brought this up before and no one would bite. I don’t know any Norwegian and have no clue about deciphering ciphers, but hopefully someone will look into it.

Catching up on this thread!!!!

I agree with Phil- murderers actually can and do murder close to their homes, sometimes in their own neighborhoods. Can’t remember the name of the cross-dressing naval officer, the Canadian, that was recently busted (as in a few years ago)- but he murdered a woman right in his neighborhood. Happens very often.

And I personally am satisfied that the DNA in this case is a big fat red herring that shouldn’t be given any weight whatever. It has led us all astray long enough. It was not science fiction back in the sixties, as I have said time and again on these boards, being that two scientists won the Nobel in 1961 for DNA, it was featured in several "Popular Science" articles in the early sixties, never mind the voluminous literature about particulars being gleaned from saliva, such as blood type in the secreting population. Z was smart, was aware of science. Joe Blow on the street may not have known about these things, but Z was smart, and had scientific knowledge, and there was no biological material found on those first few envelopes PERIOD. Even if DNA wasn’t in use or even in imminent use by LE as a detection tool, saliva certainly was. If there is one myth in this case I would personally like to see buried once and for all, its this hoohah about the saliva (and by natural consequence, DNA) being something no one could have considered at the time, that it was some airy-fairy idea. BS! Its all over the literature, never mind mystery novels. I may have mentioned a story I found in a 1940’s issue of "Ebony" about a young black female forensics investigator who got a cigarette butt from a suspect and found out his blood type, and he was convicted largely on the basis of that evidence. IN THE FORTIES!!!!!!

Now, Back to KJ. I guess we can call him that now?

I find the connections between himself and the Stine scene extremely interesting. But I got nothing on the other scenes. But it occurred to me today that one thing could clinch it. WHAT IF THOSE UNCRACKED CIPHERS ARE IN another language? I was thinking KJ was Norwegian, am I mistaken? Whatever his native language is, that could be a possible starting point to solving the ciphers. I am sure I am not the first person to think this. Norse? Do you speak any of these Northern Euro languages?

I to, have wondered the same thing when referring to the cipher. Z was probably pissed off that his first cipher was cracked so soon (and saw that the word "kill" was the word that actually gave it away), and so he sought out a way to make it much more difficult to solve. What better way to do so, than to put it in a language other than English? Then when he saw no one could crack it, he decided to give a hint, telling us that SLA meant "kill" in Norse.

Catching up on this thread!!!!

I agree with Phil- murderers actually can and do murder close to their homes, sometimes in their own neighborhoods. Can’t remember the name of the cross-dressing naval officer, the Canadian, that was recently busted (as in a few years ago)- but he murdered a woman right in his neighborhood. Happens very often.
8
And I personally am satisfied that the DNA in this case is a big fat red herring that shouldn’t be given any weight whatever. It has led us all astray long enough. It was not science fiction back in the sixties, as I have said time and again on these boards, being that two scientists won the Nobel in 1961 for DNA, it was featured in several "Popular Science" articles in the early sixties, never mind the voluminous literature about particulars being gleaned from saliva, such as blood type in the secreting population. Z was smart, was aware of science. Joe Blow on the street may not have known about these things, but Z was smart, and had scientific knowledge, and there was no biological material found on those first few envelopes PERIOD. Even if DNA wasn’t in use or even in imminent use by LE as a detection tool, saliva certainly was. If there is one myth in this case I would personally like to see buried once and for all, its this hoohah about the saliva (and by natural consequence, DNA) being something no one could have considered at the time, that it was some airy-fairy idea. BS! Its all over the literature, never mind mystery novels. I may have mentioned a story I found in a 1940’s issue of "Ebony" about a young black female forensics investigator who got a cigarette butt from a suspect and found out his blood type, and he was convicted largely on the basis of that evidence. IN THE FORTIES!!!!!!

Now, Back to KJ. I guess we can call him that now?

I find the connections between himself and the Stine scene extremely interesting. But I got nothing on the other scenes. But it occurred to me today that one thing could clinch it. WHAT IF THOSE UNCRACKED CIPHERS ARE IN another language? I was thinking KJ was Norwegian, am I mistaken? Whatever his native language is, that could be a possible starting point to solving the ciphers. I am sure I am not the first person to think this. Norse? Do you speak any of these Northern Euro languages?

Hey MM, just to clarify a few things:

Russell Williams was the Canadian Air Force Colonel you were referring to. When I said it goes against conventional wisdom to kill close to home, I didn’t mean that a lot of serial killers didn’t do it. But in many cases it has to do with cockiness clouding their intelligence. It’s interesting, now that you mention him, because he is a good example of someone who had all kinds of power, prestige, and money, but was willing to risk it all for his deviant thrills.

I’m not sure if you know this, but it’s my understanding that LE combined two different sources of DNA to create a partial, but it’s highly possible they combined strands from different people, hence totally screwing it up. It’s also possible, like you said, that DNA was planted. Eithrr way, it’s questionable to say the least when it comes to exonerating suspects. The thing I don’t get about the DNA issue, is whether or not LE checks Z suspects against Cheri Jo Bates’ murderer’s DNA. Does anyone know this? We do know they have reliable DNA for that one.

Finally, in regards to the ciphers being written in Norwegian, I’ve brought this up before and no one would bite. I don’t know any Norwegian and have no clue about deciphering ciphers, but hopefully someone will look into it.

Sorry Joe, I didn’t mean it was planted ala Mark Furman, I just meant that it was something that couldn’t necessarily be connected to the actual killer, that the killer could and probably did know about detection methods involving saliva as we are clearly dealing with someone who had at least a layman’s, "Popular Science" knowledge of DNA or saliva and so on.

I to, have wondered the same thing when referring to the cipher. Z was probably pissed off that his first cipher was cracked so soon (and saw that the word "kill" was the word that actually gave it away), and so he sought out a way to make it much more difficult to solve. What better way to do so, than to put it in a language other than English? Then when he saw no one could crack it, he decided to give a hint, telling us that SLA meant "kill" in Norse.

THAT, is one of those things that makes my pulse run a bit faster regarding this suspect.
I am lucky enough to be able to be a full time student and have access to some amazing libraries, and yesterday got a number of books about ciphers (I realize they aren’t CODES now, its the wrong term, live and learn). But I am headed to the library again today and I am going to grab some Norwegian language books. It also occurs to me that I have a client- I make videos and short films as a job tho I don’t consider it a job, its too much fun – who is from Norway. I have made a load of vids for him and he might be willing to help me. Didn’t even think of that til now. Its an approach worth taking.

Hi-

This is some very interesting stuff. I have considered the code being in Norwegian. I had a Norwegian cryptographer look at it but he didn’t come up with anything. Maybe I have to give him the "sla" clue. I had never looked at the "sla" letter in that way but that is what fresh eyes on the case can do!

Interesting observations about the DNA. I’ve been trying to convey that it is a red herring for a long time but nobody seems to listen. The infallibility of DNA is very deeply ingrained in peoples’ minds; they can’t get past the belief that because the Zodiac case took place in the 1960s, it was impossible for him to avoid licking stamps and envelopes, etc. SFPD even said that their sample "may not be reliable" in 2009. It is a combined sample and even more than that, KQ would have known of saliva testing in the 1960s.

Mike

Norse? Do you speak any of these Northern Euro languages?

I do indeed.

The possibility of the 340 plain text being Old Norse was probably the first "theory" I had as far as the Z case is concerned. It was based on some pretty vague ideas (which originally came from Penn, I think, but I didn’t know anything about him at the time) about a "Nordic" Z connection – but nothing ever came of it. Then I learned of Mike’s suspect – and was very intrigued, to say the least. If KQ was Z, then the possibility of him using his native language in some way or form should definitely be considered.

As an aside I might repeat what I’ve suggested elsewhere (regarding "sla"): There is no reason to assume that a Norwegian born in the 20th century would be very familiar with Old Norse (a language which is very different from modern Norwegian). Then again, as Penn correctly pointed out in his bizarre book, the author of the "sla" letter is mistaken: the word can’t be translated as "kill". So perhaps the "sla" author was just vaguely and not very familiar with Old Norse.

Hi-

The interesting thing is that when I interviewed KQ in 2006, he did not protest Z’s statement that sla meant "kill." He only corrected the spelling because of that "little "o" that goes over the "a". But he did not say to me and Jim that the killer got the definition wrong. So it seems that he may have had the same misconception about the meaning of the word that Z did.

Mike

It’s pretty much the same word in modern Norwegian and Old Norse, only the diacritic mark is different: slå (MN) versus slá (ON). It means (Penn was right about this, as mentioned above) to "strike" or to "hit" when standing alone. If you add the adverb "í hel" (MN "ihjel"), however, you get "slá í hel" which may be translated as "to strike dead" or "to kill". The phrase "ihjel"/"í hel" literally means "into hell", to strike someone into hell (hel = the netherworld, same as the English world "hell").

Mike, do you know precisely where KQ’s stud farm was located?

As we know, Z drove from where he was parked on Knoxville Rd to the car wash in Napa. Is it plausible to "swing by" KQ’s farm given what we know – or would this be too much out of the way?

PS I’m not saying this is crucial to the theory – Z may have driven straight to the car wash regardless of who he was. But I think it’s an interesting angle nonetheless. IF KQ’s farm is actually more or less on the way, that would be a definite "pro" on the list, I think.

Hi-

The farm was in Oakville.

And BTW, it goes without saying that a guy like Richard Walter, who has an international reputation to uphold and who rarely even entertains (much less endorses) the ideas of "amateur investigators," is not going to stick his head in a noose for me if the *only* connection between KQ and the Z case is the fact that he lived near the Stine murder scene.

Mike