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Paul Stine's shirt and keys

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(@jamesmsv)
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Does anyone know if LE have ever released details of how much of Paul Stine’s shirt was never matched up? I’m wondering if it’s something like a piece of that shirt that keeps the DMV letter under wraps.
On a related topic, was there an inventory of the type of keys on the cab keyring that Z took? I was thinking of the key Xerox today and wondered if, whilst obviously not car keys, could they have been other keys on the same keyring? I wonder if anyone ever showed the pictures to the Stine family?

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Posted : November 14, 2013 1:12 am
(@nachtsider)
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I believe that 104 square inches of the shirt are still unaccounted for.

 
Posted : November 14, 2013 3:08 am
morf13
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I believe that 104 square inches of the shirt are still unaccounted for.

If I were a betting man, I would say the remaining parts of the shirt were discarded long ago

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Posted : November 14, 2013 5:11 am
(@jamesmsv)
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I believe that 104 square inches of the shirt are still unaccounted for.

If I were a betting man, I would say the remaining parts of the shirt were discarded long ago

Thanks for the info. That is quite a lot of shirt still missing; any reason why you think he’d not hang on to it? I know he wasn’t the trophy type but I still think most murderers of his ilke would keep that kind of thing forever.

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Posted : November 14, 2013 1:36 pm
(@entropy)
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Good questions, james. Would Stine’s keys even be identifiable if they turned up in somebody’s safe deposit box tomorrow? If Stine’s shirt was taken as a means of authenticating letters rather than a trophy, why did Z lose interest in using it? Would he have necessarily kept these items and what would he have done with them if they weren’t for later confirmation of his culpability? Unfortunately, there are too many good questions remaining and too few good answers.

 
Posted : November 14, 2013 7:16 pm
Welsh Chappie
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I believe that 104 square inches of the shirt are still unaccounted for.

If I were a betting man, I would say the remaining parts of the shirt were discarded long ago

I would agree with that also. I mean he didn’t seem at all interested in trophy’s only two weeks prior to the Stine murder because Bryan gave Zodiac his keys and offered his wallet and after Zodiac had stabbed both numerous times, he threw the keys back on the ground and left the wallet where it was also. I mean it’s just my opinion but if Zodiac took Pauls Drivers Licence he would have done so for a reason such as to use in one of his games with the Press. Maybe photocopying it and sending copies along with his letters to prove he is the Zodiac each time. I could be totally wrong of course and Zodiac may have taken the Licence as a trophy but if he did, that’s at odds with how disinterested in taking anything from Lake Berryessa just two short weeks before?

"So it’s sorta social. Demented and sad, but social, right?" Judd Nelson.

 
Posted : January 7, 2014 6:19 pm
(@entropy)
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I believe that 104 square inches of the shirt are still unaccounted for.

If I were a betting man, I would say the remaining parts of the shirt were discarded long ago

I would agree with that also. I mean he didn’t seem at all interested in trophy’s only two weeks prior to the Stine murder because Bryan gave Zodiac his keys and offered his wallet and after Zodiac had stabbed both numerous times, he threw the keys back on the ground and left the wallet where it was also. I mean it’s just my opinion but if Zodiac took Pauls Drivers Licence he would have done so for a reason such as to use in one of his games with the Press. Maybe photocopying it and sending copies along with his letters to prove he is the Zodiac each time. I could be totally wrong of course and Zodiac may have taken the Licence as a trophy but if he did, that’s at odds with how disinterested in taking anything from Lake Berryessa just two short weeks before?

If money was involved, I wouldn’t bet against that. It’s definitely weird though how Z seemed to lose interest in the trophies he had. Or at least seemed to lose interest in using them. Then again, he seemed to lose interest in taking credit for anything or even seemingly being Zodiac so perhaps whatever trophies he had were no longer necessary? I think it’s important to distinguish Z’s choice of trophies from typical serial killer trophies like women’s underwear. A bloody shirt and keys aren’t part of some fetish and I don’t imagine Z reliving the murder of Paul Stine by coveting his bloody shirt, keys and wallet. They were USEFUL to Z, or at least seemed useful at the time, IMO. Probably not any more….

FWIW, BTK kind of used his victims’ trophies in both ways. He mailed in a victim’s driver’s license and other items to authenticate his responsibility (decades after the fact) but held on to other items. My guess is that trophies served as more of a fetish for BTK in that he relived crimes through these items and that underwear would probably have been more important to keep for that purpose.

 
Posted : January 7, 2014 7:34 pm
Welsh Chappie
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I agree that Bloody covered shirt pieces were taken not as a trophy, but for practical reasons, namely, he can use it to prove his is who he says he is and that he really was responsible for the lone cabbies assassination. But The Cabs Key’s and Paul’s Drivers Licence being useful to him…How? He never photocopied the licence to send with letters to prove he was Zodiac, that would have seen the items being put to use and justify why he took them. Again, the ‘Zodiac took the cab’s key’s as a trophy, a kind of souvenir" angle doesn’t hold much ground for me personally based on Zodiac’s own actions two weeks before he murders Stine. Zodiac tells Bryan he is an escapee and he needs his vehicle to get to Mexico and Bryan hands the keys over. Bryan has no cash so offers to write him a cheque and Bryans wallet is on the floor easily available and yet after he’s stabbed the couple, he discards Bryans car Keys by dropping them rite next to the couple. I know Zodiac breaks many rules of the serial killer handbook but when it comes to serial killers they tend to be one or the other, either they have no interest in trophy’s at all, or they are almost obsessed with collection belongings from each victim they kill. It just doesn’t make sense to me that on Sep 27, Zodiac has a set of car keys of the victim in his hands, yet after stabbing them he leaves them there showing no interest in taking the keys or anything else for that matter. Two weeks later, Zodiac can’t get enough of Paul’s belongings and takes his keys, wallet, licence and, quite literally, the shirt of Paul Stine’s back! This Zodiac at Presidio Heights would pick the cab itself up and run away with it to keep as a trophy lol. Just doesn’t make sense. He seemed to want ID of Paul’s for some reason, like the drivers licence he took. Now why he wants this all of a sudden and doesn’t ever use it or send it to anyone is anyone’s guess. The only scenario that I can think of where Zodiac would seem over-eager to get Paul’s wallet and ID, and that’s if Zodiac is acting on behalf of someone else, in other words, a hitman. It’s quite common from the crime shows I have watched for the person hiring a hitman to tell the Hitman that he want’s proof that the person is dead before they pay for the deed.

"So it’s sorta social. Demented and sad, but social, right?" Judd Nelson.

 
Posted : January 7, 2014 8:19 pm
(@entropy)
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I agree that Bloody covered shirt pieces were taken not as a trophy, but for practical reasons, namely, he can use it to prove his is who he says he is and that he really was responsible for the lone cabbies assassination. But The Cabs Key’s and Paul’s Drivers Licence being useful to him…How? He never photocopied the licence to send with letters to prove he was Zodiac, that would have seen the items being put to use and justify why he took them. Again, the ‘Zodiac took the cab’s key’s as a trophy, a kind of souvenir" angle doesn’t hold much ground for me personally based on Zodiac’s own actions two weeks before he murders Stine. Zodiac tells Bryan he is an escapee and he needs his vehicle to get to Mexico and Bryan hands the keys over. Bryan has no cash so offers to write him a cheque and Bryans wallet is on the floor easily available and yet after he’s stabbed the couple, he discards Bryans car Keys by dropping them rite next to the couple. I know Zodiac breaks many rules of the serial killer handbook but when it comes to serial killers they tend to be one or the other, either they have no interest in trophy’s at all, or they are almost obsessed with collection belongings from each victim they kill. It just doesn’t make sense to me that on Sep 27, Zodiac has a set of car keys of the victim in his hands, yet after stabbing them he leaves them there showing no interest in taking the keys or anything else for that matter. Two weeks later, Zodiac can’t get enough of Paul’s belongings and takes his keys, wallet, licence and, quite literally, the shirt of Paul Stine’s back! This Zodiac at Presidio Heights would pick the cab itself up and run away with it to keep as a trophy lol. Just doesn’t make sense. He seemed to want ID of Paul’s for some reason, like the drivers licence he took. Now why he wants this all of a sudden and doesn’t ever use it or send it to anyone is anyone’s guess. The only scenario that I can think of where Zodiac would seem over-eager to get Paul’s wallet and ID, and that’s if Zodiac is acting on behalf of someone else, in other words, a hitman. It’s quite common from the crime shows I have watched for the person hiring a hitman to tell the Hitman that he want’s proof that the person is dead before they pay for the deed.

Valid points, Chappie. Why the keys and wallet? I have no freaking idea why they were taken or why they were never used like the pieces of Stine’s shirt. Or why the rest of Stine’s shirt and those items were never used to authenticate later letters. Just saying that keys, a wallet or a driver’s license aren’t the typical trophy choice of a serial killer, IMO. There’s no emotional/psychosexual connection to the victim like jewelry or underwear? He clearly could have gotten some of the same items from Bryan and Cecilia. Why didn’t he? I have no freaking idea.

 
Posted : January 7, 2014 8:45 pm
Welsh Chappie
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I don’t think we’ll ever know now either because I believe he’s probably dead and if he isn’t, he’ll be into his seventies at the very least, late 80’s at most. I used to think that because of Zodiac’s huge ego that before he died he’d have given his attorney a sealed envelope with specific instructions that it only be opened after his death and inside would be Paul’s Drivers Licence with a letter of confession that starts "This is the Zodiac Speaking.."

I was talking about this last year and how Paul’s Drivers Licence could still be out there somewhere. The problem is that lets say Zodiac dies on Monday morning and a week later his relatives are removing his belongings from his home to make way or the new tenant and while they are doing this they come across a wallet in a locked drawer. They pry the drawer open and in this wallet are cards and ID, even drivers licence with photo, that all belong to someone called Paul Stine of Fell Street. What are the chances that they will recognise Stine as a victim of the Zodiac? Its coming up to half a century old now and they would probably just assume their recently departed relative must have found this wallet and hung on to it so they may as well throw it away as the issue date for the licence in the wallet is way back in the 1960s. That may have happened. And even if Z’s family member, lets say his brother, found Stine’s wallet after Z died and he knew exactly who Stine was and what this now means. Do I think that most would do the right thing and give the victims families some much deserved closure, or protect their own family’s interests (which you can’t really blame someone if for doing if that’s what they did)? I think 9 out of 10 would opt for the latter of the two choices.

"So it’s sorta social. Demented and sad, but social, right?" Judd Nelson.

 
Posted : January 8, 2014 1:23 am
(@nachtsider)
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I don’t think we’ll ever know now either because I believe he’s probably dead and if he isn’t, he’ll be into his seventies at the very least, late 80’s at most. I used to think that because of Zodiac’s huge ego that before he died he’d have given his attorney a sealed envelope with specific instructions that it only be opened after his death and inside would be Paul’s Drivers Licence with a letter of confession that starts "This is the Zodiac Speaking.."

Physically speaking, there’s no reason why Zodiac shouldn’t still be alive. People routinely live into their eighties.

As for his ego, I truly believe that his ego, and whatever else drove him to kill, died back in the mid-late Seventies. The main reason why we haven’t heard from this guy is because he’s a psychologically changed man. It doesn’t absolve him of guilt, of course.

 
Posted : January 8, 2014 8:31 am
Tahoe27
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I don’t think we’ll ever know now either because I believe he’s probably dead and if he isn’t, he’ll be into his seventies at the very least, late 80’s at most. I used to think that because of Zodiac’s huge ego that before he died he’d have given his attorney a sealed envelope with specific instructions that it only be opened after his death and inside would be Paul’s Drivers Licence with a letter of confession that starts "This is the Zodiac Speaking.."

Physically speaking, there’s no reason why Zodiac shouldn’t still be alive. People routinely live into their eighties.

As for his ego, I truly believe that his ego, and whatever else drove him to kill, died back in the mid-late Seventies. The main reason why we haven’t heard from this guy is because he’s a psychologically changed man. It doesn’t absolve him of guilt, of course.

Yah, we might wish for a deathbed confession….being afraid he will go to hell if he doesn’t confess his greatest sin. Wishful thinking?


…they may be dealing with one or more ersatz Zodiacs–other psychotics eager to get into the act, or perhaps even other murderers eager to lay their crimes at the real Zodiac’s doorstep. L.A. Times, 1969

 
Posted : January 8, 2014 8:41 am
(@entropy)
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I don’t think we’ll ever know now either because I believe he’s probably dead and if he isn’t, he’ll be into his seventies at the very least, late 80’s at most. I used to think that because of Zodiac’s huge ego that before he died he’d have given his attorney a sealed envelope with specific instructions that it only be opened after his death and inside would be Paul’s Drivers Licence with a letter of confession that starts "This is the Zodiac Speaking.."

I was talking about this last year and how Paul’s Drivers Licence could still be out there somewhere. The problem is that lets say Zodiac dies on Monday morning and a week later his relatives are removing his belongings from his home to make way or the new tenant and while they are doing this they come across a wallet in a locked drawer. They pry the drawer open and in this wallet are cards and ID, even drivers licence with photo, that all belong to someone called Paul Stine of Fell Street. What are the chances that they will recognise Stine as a victim of the Zodiac? Its coming up to half a century old now and they would probably just assume their recently departed relative must have found this wallet and hung on to it so they may as well throw it away as the issue date for the licence in the wallet is way back in the 1960s. That may have happened. And even if Z’s family member, lets say his brother, found Stine’s wallet after Z died and he knew exactly who Stine was and what this now means. Do I think that most would do the right thing and give the victims families some much deserved closure, or protect their own family’s interests (which you can’t really blame someone if for doing if that’s what they did)? I think 9 out of 10 would opt for the latter of the two choices.

I’ve expressed similar points, Chappie, in that the driver’s license and the remnants of Stine’s shirt are really the only items that would be remotely identifiable to US if we stumbled across them. To a random family member or someone stumbling across these items in someone’s safe deposit box, even those two items might seem weird but might well be tossed after an initial WTF? moment. A death bed confession or a purposeful planned post-mortem confession, as you refer to, is unfortunately probably our best bet at the moment. Of course, I picture all of this stuff being displayed as assemblage art but that’s just me. ;)

 
Posted : January 8, 2014 8:03 pm
Welsh Chappie
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I don’t think we’ll ever know now either because I believe he’s probably dead and if he isn’t, he’ll be into his seventies at the very least, late 80’s at most. I used to think that because of Zodiac’s huge ego that before he died he’d have given his attorney a sealed envelope with specific instructions that it only be opened after his death and inside would be Paul’s Drivers Licence with a letter of confession that starts "This is the Zodiac Speaking.."

Physically speaking, there’s no reason why Zodiac shouldn’t still be alive. People routinely live into their eighties.

As for his ego, I truly believe that his ego, and whatever else drove him to kill, died back in the mid-late Seventies. The main reason why we haven’t heard from this guy is because he’s a psychologically changed man. It doesn’t absolve him of guilt, of course.

"Physically speaking, there’s no reason why Zodiac shouldn’t still be alive. People routinely live into their eighties."

Well obviously. I didn’t say it was impossible for him to still be alive because obviously that isn’t true, that why I said "I believe (Personal opinion) that he’s probably (far from a certainty) dead."

"As for his ego, I truly believe that his ego, and whatever else drove him to kill, died back in the mid-late Seventies. The main reason why we haven’t heard from this guy is because he’s a psychologically changed man. It doesn’t absolve him of guilt, of course."

Well if we assume that the personality and ego of ‘Zodiac’ as expressed in his letters accurately reflects the personality and ego of the man behind Zodiac then while it’s possible he simply just lost his absolute need to make the headlines by killing, it’s unlikely based on what is known about Serial Killers. Some people have pointed to Gary Ridgway (Green River Killer) and Dennis Rader (BTK) as examples of Serials that had stopped killing but Ridgway himself admitted that after he got married he slowed down considerably in terms of the number of prostitutes he killed per year, but he himself says he never stopped killing completely. Rader did stop killing, but never, as he put it, stopped ‘Trolling for victims’ and told the Wichita PD after his arrest that he was planning a murder at the time they captured him.

"So it’s sorta social. Demented and sad, but social, right?" Judd Nelson.

 
Posted : January 15, 2014 2:47 am
Welsh Chappie
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Personally speaking, I think his decision to stop killing and communicating with press each had it’s own reason. The reason he stopped killing, as well as the reason he stopped writing, are, for me, not a question of what was responsible for each, but rather, who? Zodiac’s reason for halting the killing? Don Fouke & Eric Zelms. Zodiac’s reason for not communicating telling of his latest ‘Victoms’? Chief Martin Lee.

Possible reasons for his calling time on the kill spree?
I think Zodiac was so arrogant, egocentric and narcissistic that he possibly believed he really was crack proof and could simply never be caught….Untill he walked into Don Fouke’s ‘Prowl car’s’ headlights on Jackson minutes after murdering Paul. Reality Check! I think that brought him back down to Earth somewhat and smashed his delusional belief of invincibility and he knew just how close he came to being captured and just how lucky he was that he wasn’t sitting in a prison cell.

Possible reasons for his stopping communicating?
He’d lost control and the ability to dictate what was being published about him. He met his match as far as insult slinging name calling goes in the SFPD’s top man himself, Chief of Inspectors Martin Lee who’s interview ran in The Chronicle on Oct 18, 1969… "The killer of five who calls himself "Zodiac" is a clumsy criminal, a liar and possibly a latent homosexual. That’s the opinion of homicide detectives assigned to bring in the boastful mass murderer. "He has made some mistakes," Chief of Inspectors Marvin Lee said of Zodiac. Mistakes such as:

— Possibly leaving his fingerprints in the Yellow Cab in which he shot taxi driver Paul Stine last Saturday night.

— Allowing himself to be seen by three witnesses as he fled from the Presidio Heights murder scene.

— Leaving alive two of his intended victims in the deranged attacks he made on couples in the North Bay region — two young men who may one day pick him out of a lineup.

And, says Lee, he is a liar.

"His boast of being in the area we were searching while we were searching it is a lie," Lee said. "We had the whole area flooded with lights. We had seven police dogs and a large number of patrolmen searching the area tree by tree and bush by bush. The dogs are the best in the country. A mouse couldn’t have escaped our attention."

Then the article said, speaking of Zodiac’s attack at Lake Berryessa: "It is the knife attack that leads investigators to consider that Zodiac may be a latent homosexual. His cryptic writings and hand- lettered boasts don’t indicate this — but the way in which he wielded the knife does hint of it. Psychiatrists and criminologists have told investigators that such a modus operandi could mean Zodiac is unsure of his manhood."

This is the article that caused Zodiac to respond on Nov 9th with "This is the Zodiac speaking up to the end of Oct I have killed 7 people. I have grown rather angry with the police for their telling lies about me. So I shall change the way the collecting of slaves. I shall no longer announce to anyone. When I committ my murders, they shall look like routine robberies, killings ofanger, + a few fake accidents, etc." This reaction, to me, is like that of a 5 year old who can’t get his own way. He’s essentially saying "I am not talking to you anymore you nasty horrible people, so go away!" Think Lee hurt Z’s feelings and possibly hit on something that Zodiac didn’t want to hear about.

"So it’s sorta social. Demented and sad, but social, right?" Judd Nelson.

 
Posted : January 15, 2014 3:23 am
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