So, in other words, the Confession Letter could have been a hoax?
This has been well discussed over time within these boards, and most people are aware of the debate in the Bates case, so I’m not aiming to rehash everything. But I will anyway. In a nutshell, the consensus appears to be that either:
[a] The Zodiac wrote the Bates letters and therefore the Zodiac killed Bates
The Zodiac wrote the letters but did not kill Bates
There’s also [c] whereby someone other than the Zodiac typed the confession letter, but the Zodiac wrote the three "Bates had to die" letters. (The letters carried double postage à la the Zodiac; the confession letter envelopes had no postage. See "The Quester Files" by Gian J. Quasar https://bit.ly/3ypxzkk)
As already mentioned, a large number of Zodiac authors and commentators do not agree with the statement “The person who wrote the confession letter is aware of facts about the homicide that only the killer would know". In fact, Quasar and others observe that "the substance of the letter argues against it."
"Pure mathematics is, in its way, the poetry of logical ideas." Albert Einstein
If the Confession is legit (and the discriminator is the knowledge about the possible phone calls, since the NYT had a small article on like 11/1 that mentioned the coil wire or something along those lines) then it shows someone who seemed to fantasize about getting revenge on women. This is an anger-retaliatory killer.
Zodiac was a power based killer, not an anger killer like the Bates murderer. Different people. But believe whatever floats your boat lol.
IIRC Mike Kelleher thought that Z and the Riverside killer knew each other. Thus the intrigue created f
if the car seen by the eyewitness was actually a Tucker Torpedo: a car likely owned by a car buff
Mike Rodelli
Author, The Hunt for Zodiac; 3.9 stars on Amazon and
In The Shadow of Mt. Diablo: The Shocking True Identity of the Zodiac Killer, a second edition in print format. 4.3 Amazon stars and great Editorial reviews. Twitter:@mikerodelli
This^^ here is an opinion.
Zodiac may be power-assertive, but that is in no way a definitive take on his motives. It may be in his makeup, in his execution, but from where does this need, to assert power, stem?
He is willing to murder. And he is capable -unless you can show otherwise- of succumbing to emotions. Had he not killed before, then he could well have gotten his taste for it here. She could be personal. It could be intentional, or it could be due to escalation.
Also, the killing here is more brutal…isn’t much of that due to the fact that she fought back?
What you’re saying is valid if Qvale is, in fact, the Zodiac. He was already a grown man. But what if it was someone else? Even if you take someone like Ed Edwards. Despite his criminal history, he did go on to have a family and appears to have been an actual family man. But he’s a killer. He’s also an intelligent man, arrogant and desiring to rub his intelligence in your face as superior. Was he fully stable?
Unfortunately, tho you could be right about who the killer is, your discarding of the link here is only possible if you are right. And you have no basis to conclude this.
This has been well discussed over time within these boards, and most people are aware of the debate in the Bates case, so I’m not aiming to rehash everything. But I will anyway. In a nutshell, the consensus appears to be that either:
[a] The Zodiac wrote the Bates letters and therefore the Zodiac killed Bates
The Zodiac wrote the letters but did not kill Bates
Well, I think there is also a third possibility: Zodiac had nothing to do with the Bates murder but drew inspiration from it. Using extra postage is just a logical way to ensure your mail is delivered. I’m not sure that this trait was unique to Zodiac. I think TK did the same thing (hence, why many think TK was Zodiac). But if TK was not Zodiac, then it’s by no means a unique trait. The only time the Zodiac used similar verbiage as the Confession Letter was the phrase "twitch and squirm", but when Zodiac used it he was quoting something. So, that doesn’t provide the evidence that you think it does. The handwritten letters are two small of a sample size to establish a handwriting match. If you claim that the handwriting match works for the Bates murder, you can’t reject the handwriting match to Hartnell’s door with any intellectual honesty.
But, if you want to call Bates a Zodiac victim, then you ignore the profiling evidence that points in a very different direction. I don’t think it’s a slam dunk case that Zodiac is responsible for the Bates murder. However, it is certainly a possibility, as he did claim responsibility for it.
This^^ here is an opinion.
Every profile is an opinion. It’s just a tool to help identify a killer. But profiles are right a great majority of the time. So, I don’t think they should be outright ignored. The problem comes with matching a profile to a specific suspect. Profilers can’t do that. That takes evidence. While it may be fair to say that we don’t know everything that happened in the Bates murder, that is true in most cases where profilers are employed. They review the crime scene evidence and come up with a profile. I suppose a legitimate objection would be that the Bates murder is a singular event that may not provide enough information for a full profile. Generally, profilers are called in on serial murder cases where multiple crime scene provide more evidence to work with in formulating a profile. With the Bates murder alone, there is not much information to work with, but we can compare the Bates murder to the other Zodiac murders. When that is done, the profiles don’t appear to match at all. Since the original Zodiac and RPD detectives didn’t work with profiles because the discipline had not yet been developed, I would not necessarily defer to their conclusions.
This^^ here is an opinion.
Every profile is an opinion. It’s just a tool to help identify a killer. But profiles are right a great majority of the time. So, I don’t think they should be outright ignored. The problem comes with matching a profile to a specific suspect. Profilers can’t do that. That takes evidence. While it may be fair to say that we don’t know everything that happened in the Bates murder, that is true in most cases where profilers are employed. They review the crime scene evidence and come up with a profile. I suppose a legitimate objection would be that the Bates murder is a singular event that may not provide enough information for a full profile. Generally, profilers are called in on serial murder cases where multiple crime scene provide more evidence to work with in formulating a profile. With the Bates murder alone, there is not much information to work with, but we can compare the Bates murder to the other Zodiac murders. When that is done, the profiles don’t appear to match at all. Since the original Zodiac and RPD detectives didn’t work with profiles because the discipline had not yet been developed, I would not necessarily defer to their conclusions.
Fair, but as you said they profile serial killers. Zodiac would qualify, but his MO was really that of a terrorist, willing to appear a common (well) serial killer.
Outliers exist, and again her fighting back is likely the reason for the brutality of the murder.
Fair, but as you said they profile serial killers. Zodiac would qualify, but his MO was really that of a terrorist, willing to appear a common (well) serial killer.
Outliers exist, and again her fighting back is likely the reason for the brutality of the murder.
You could say that Zodiac never allowed for his victims to fight back in the first place, which demonstrates a very different MO. You could posit that Zodiac learned from the Bates murder, I suppose.
If the Confession is legit (and the discriminator is the knowledge about the possible phone calls, since the NYT had a small article on like 11/1 that mentioned the coil wire or something along those lines) then it shows someone who seemed to fantasize about getting revenge on women. This is an anger-retaliatory killer.
Zodiac was a power based killer, not an anger killer like the Bates murderer. Different people. But believe whatever floats your boat lol.
IIRC Mike Kelleher thought that Z and the Riverside killer knew each other. Thus the intrigue created f
if the car seen by the eyewitness was actually a Tucker Torpedo: a car likely owned by a car buff
Just because Z behaves a certain way as "The Zodiac Killer" doesn’t mean he can’t behave differently under
different circumstances.
Just because Z behaves a certain way as "The Zodiac Killer" doesn’t mean he can’t behave differently under
different circumstances.
I would say the same thing to you regarding Shooter and Stabber Z in relation to the LB attack. You seem to think Shooter Z could not have deviated from his prior MO. But, you affirm that Bates’ killer could have changed his MO to become Shooter Z? Why the inconsistency?
Just because Z behaves a certain way as "The Zodiac Killer" doesn’t mean he can’t behave differently under
different circumstances.I would say the same thing to you regarding Shooter and Stabber Z in relation to the LB attack. You seem to think Shooter Z could not have deviated from his prior MO. But, you affirm that Bates’ killer could have changed his MO to become Shooter Z? Why the inconsistency?
Wasn’t that Marshall ?
Just because Z behaves a certain way as "The Zodiac Killer" doesn’t mean he can’t behave differently under
different circumstances.I would say the same thing to you regarding Shooter and Stabber Z in relation to the LB attack. You seem to think Shooter Z could not have deviated from his prior MO. But, you affirm that Bates’ killer could have changed his MO to become Shooter Z? Why the inconsistency?
Wasn’t that Marshall ?
You’re right. I mixed up Marshall and Monarch. But, I guess the observation is still valid if anyone thinks that LB’s attacker is not Zodiac.
Wasn’t disagreeing, just keeping keeping things in order 
Using extra postage is just a logical way to ensure your mail is delivered. I’m not sure that this trait was unique to Zodiac.
I agree, however, that was just one example of Quasar’s analysis of the letters and comparisons to the Zodiac letters.
Here’s the link again: https://bit.ly/3ypxzkk
Scroll down past the Confession Letter and look for the pics of the envelopes to the left side of the text. Start at the paragraph:
"This is where it gets more complex. Could the man who would later become The Zodiac have written the letter but not have committed the crime?"
"Pure mathematics is, in its way, the poetry of logical ideas." Albert Einstein
The "Bates had to die" letters weren’t publicized until Avery exposed the Riverside connection. So they couldn’t have inspired Zodiac (unless he was an insider).
Now, Zodiac’s use of stamps. First Class postage was 6 cents in 1969. Zodiac used 6 1-cent stamps on the Belli letter, which might not have even been adequate, given that he included a piece of Stine’s shirt. On the other hand, he used FOUR 6-cent stamps on the Vallejo Times-Herald letter, which was massive overkill. So I tend to think there’s some kind of game-playing going on with his use of stamps.
Now, you can certainly argue that the Bates writer used two 4-cent stamps because he didn’t have any other stamps. We obviously don’t know one way or the other.
The handwritten letters are two small of a sample size to establish a handwriting match. If you claim that the handwriting match works for the Bates murder, you can’t reject the handwriting match to Hartnell’s door with any intellectual honesty.
Yes, and vice versa. When you admit the Bates writing sample is too small to establish a match, you simultaneously admit the same of the LB car door.
