The handwritten letters are two small of a sample size to establish a handwriting match. If you claim that the handwriting match works for the Bates murder, you can’t reject the handwriting match to Hartnell’s door with any intellectual honesty.
Yes, and vice versa. When you admit the Bates writing sample is too small to establish a match, you simultaneously admit the same of the LB car door.
I’ve always admitted that. I don’t think the handwriting match is dispositive as to LB. I think it adds to the probability. But, I would put more weight on the symbol on the hood and the phone call.
The "Bates had to die" letters weren’t publicized until Avery exposed the Riverside connection. So they couldn’t have inspired Zodiac (unless he was an insider).
Now, Zodiac’s use of stamps. First Class postage was 6 cents in 1969. Zodiac used 6 1-cent stamps on the Belli letter, which might not have even been adequate, given that he included a piece of Stine’s shirt. On the other hand, he used FOUR 6-cent stamps on the Vallejo Times-Herald letter, which was massive overkill. So I tend to think there’s some kind of game-playing going on with his use of stamps.
Now, you can certainly argue that the Bates writer used two 4-cent stamps because he didn’t have any other stamps. We obviously don’t know one way or the other.
They weren’t mentioned in the detective magazine article about the crime? Either way, to our knowledge, Zodiac never sent letters to victims’ family. He only sent letters to the media. There is the allegation regarding the Kathleen Johns Halloween Card, but I don’t know if that has been substantiated. Either way, I can’t think of one occasion where the Zodiac ever referred to one of his victims by name…or humanized them at all.
I think the least likely scenario would be Zodiac only writing the handwritten letters and nothing else. Why would he do that? If he wrote those letters, he probably killed her, too.
The magazine only mentioned the Confession letter.
Which introduces another wrinkle: if Zodiac was the author, he wouldn’t have been pleased that they were swept under the rug.
I have no counter-argument for the change in attitude, unless he was deliberately distancing himself from Riverside by affecting an aloof persona. Johns was threatened in a subsequent letter, but not by name. Although, the Halloween card was specifically addressed to "Paul Averly."
The magazine only mentioned the Confession letter.
Which introduces another wrinkle: if Zodiac was the author, he wouldn’t have been pleased that they were swept under the rug.
I have no counter-argument for the change in attitude, unless he was deliberately distancing himself from Riverside by affecting an aloof persona. Johns was threatened in a subsequent letter, but not by name. Although, the Halloween card was specifically addressed to "Paul Averly."
Sandy and others have said that Kathleen Johns claimed to have received a Halloween Card nearly identical to the one sent to Paul Avery but addressed to her. According to Sandy, Johns gave it to Paul Avery.
I meant the Halloween card that Morrill confirmed. If Zodiac sent that, then he threatened someone by name. I’m a little dubious about the Johns card, unless it turns up in a box of evidence someday. (She didn’t even make a photocopy?)
I meant the Halloween card that Morrill confirmed. If Zodiac sent that, then he threatened someone by name. I’m a little dubious about the Johns card, unless it turns up in a box of evidence someday. (She didn’t even make a photocopy?)
The Halloween Card to Avery is not the same as the letters to Joseph Bates and others. Avery goaded the Zodiac. I think he called him a latent homosexual and insulted him in many other ways. Avery provoked the threat. Other than the purported card to Johns, we have no instances of Zodiac taunting the family of victims.
The "Bates had to die" letters weren’t publicized until Avery exposed the Riverside connection. So they couldn’t have inspired Zodiac (unless he was an insider).
Now, Zodiac’s use of stamps. First Class postage was 6 cents in 1969. Zodiac used 6 1-cent stamps on the Belli letter, which might not have even been adequate, given that he included a piece of Stine’s shirt. On the other hand, he used FOUR 6-cent stamps on the Vallejo Times-Herald letter, which was massive overkill. So I tend to think there’s some kind of game-playing going on with his use of stamps.
Now, you can certainly argue that the Bates writer used two 4-cent stamps because he didn’t have any other stamps. We obviously don’t know one way or the other.
They weren’t mentioned in the detective magazine article about the crime? Either way, to our knowledge, Zodiac never sent letters to victims’ family. He only sent letters to the media. There is the allegation regarding the Kathleen Johns Halloween Card, but I don’t know if that has been substantiated. Either way, I can’t think of one occasion where the Zodiac ever referred to one of his victims by name…or humanized them at all.
I think the least likely scenario would be Zodiac only writing the handwritten letters and nothing else. Why would he do that? If he wrote those letters, he probably killed her, too.
AK Wilks: Some think Zodiac likely sent this card to Donna Lass’ sister. The card is cold and mocking. Given the Pines card, "around in the snow", some think Donna Lass could be buried out there among the Pines. Thus "Saint Donna & Guardian of the Pines" could be a mocking and cruel reference to Donna being buried there.
Admin, Subject: Donna Lass Christmas Card Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:50 pm
After she vanished, the sister of possible Zodiac victim Donna Lass received a cold & insensitive Christmas card. It is possibly from Zodiac. The envelope contained writing that was very similar to writing in the 1966 Riverside case of Cheri jo Bates (See the Bates thread)
http://www.thezodiacmansonconnection.co … _card.html
morf13, Subject: Re: Donna Lass Christmas Card Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:51 am
AK Wilks: So it could be argued that the Bates killer sent the letter to her father and likely Zodiac sent a card to Donna Lass sister. The card was mailed from Alameda County, CA, home to Berkeley, CA and Pleasanton, CA.
I also recall a letter to the newspaper taunting Paul Stine’s brother.
Admin, Subject: Donna Lass Christmas Card Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:50 pm
After she vanished, the sister of possible Zodiac victim Donna Lass received a cold & insensitive Christmas card. It is possibly from Zodiac. The envelope contained writing that was very similar to writing in the 1966 Riverside case of Cheri jo Bates (See the Bates thread)
http://www.thezodiacmansonconnection.co … _card.html
morf13, Subject: Re: Donna Lass Christmas Card Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:51 am
MODERATOR
When was this card sent?
We don’t know that Donna Lass was murdered. We don’t know that she was a Zodiac victim, if she was a murder victim at all. And we don’t know who sent the card to her sister. That makes for great evidence. Prove that Lass was a Zodiac victim and I’ll agree that this might demonstrate an instance of Zodiac taunting the victims’ family members.
Regarding Joe Stine, didn’t he challenge Zodiac to a fist fight? Good on him if he did. But, how can you know if the letter to Joe Stine was spontaneous or in response to the challenge, assuming that it happened?
The Halloween Card to Avery is not the same as the letters to Joseph Bates and others. Avery goaded the Zodiac. I think he called him a latent homosexual and insulted him in many other ways. Avery provoked the threat. Other than the purported card to Johns, we have no instances of Zodiac taunting the family of victims.
There’s also the silent calls to Darlene’s relatives after BRS. For which the brother took credit years later, but he has credibility issues. It would be a stupid thing for him to lie about, since it’s potentially a huge clue, but people do love to exaggerate their involvement with this case.
While Avery was simply passing along LE sentiment, you may have explained why (in my purely hypothetical argument) Zodiac singled out some for special attention. Bates nearly kicked his ass; Johns, if we believe her story, escaped. Mageau and Hartnell merely failed to succumb to their wounds. Hartnell was deferential to him, Mageau disappeared. And Zodiac apparently thought the BRS description came from Phone Booth Guy.
We don’t know that Donna Lass was murdered. We don’t know that she was a Zodiac victim, if she was a murder victim at all.
Why do you suggest that she might not have been murdered? First time I’m seeing someone say that.
There’s also the silent calls to Darlene’s relatives after BRS. For which the brother took credit years later, but he has credibility issues. It would be a stupid thing for him to lie about, since it’s potentially a huge clue, but people do love to exaggerate their involvement with this case.
If the brother took "credit" for the phone calls I would believe him because, yes, it would be a very stupid thing for him to lie about. Why would anyone make up a story about having taunted relatives after the death of a sister? Confessing having done so, with remorse, makes sense.
While Avery was simply passing along LE sentiment, you may have explained why (in my purely hypothetical argument) Zodiac singled out some for special attention. Bates nearly kicked his ass; Johns, if we believe her story, escaped. Mageau and Hartnell merely failed to succumb to their wounds. Hartnell was deferential to him, Mageau disappeared. And Zodiac apparently thought the BRS description came from Phone Booth Guy.
I don’t think Zodiac had anything to do with Johns (if you want to talk about credibility issues, she is Exhibit A.) I think his victims were random. He didn’t humanize them, and he didn’t care what their names were or who they were.
If Zodiac wanted to taunt and threaten, he knew the address of the Robbins kids for example. Why didn’t he threaten them, when they were probably, besides LE, the most dangerous to him?
We don’t know that Donna Lass was murdered. We don’t know that she was a Zodiac victim, if she was a murder victim at all.
Why do you suggest that she might not have been murdered? First time I’m seeing someone say that.
Have we found a body? How do we know she didn’t just join a cult? She may very well have been murdered, but I don’t know that we can prove that.
I think his victims were random. He didn’t humanize them, and he didn’t care what their names were or who they were.
If Zodiac wanted to taunt and threaten, he knew the address of the Robbins kids for example. Why didn’t he threaten them, when they were probably, besides LE, the most dangerous to him?
Great point. And if he lived into the 80s or 90s, why not Hartnell. He would be very easy to find, as he has a business that markets to the public.
If the brother took "credit" for the phone calls I would believe him because, yes, it would be a very stupid thing for him to lie about. Why would anyone make up a story about having taunted relatives after the death of a sister?
Because he’s known to have told some untruths. And one of the sisters allegedly told Sandy that he was busted by VPD that night, so he couldn’t have done it. People do love to exaggerate (or fabricate) their importance in this case.
If Zodiac wanted to taunt and threaten, he knew the address of the Robbins kids for example. Why didn’t he threaten them, when they were probably, besides LE, the most dangerous to him?
He made the school bus threat in the Stine letter, which pretty much came out of nowhere. Though SF didn’t have school buses at the time. Also, I thought the argument against KQ was that he wouldn’t risk being seen by the witnesses again…
If the brother took "credit" for the phone calls I would believe him because, yes, it would be a very stupid thing for him to lie about. Why would anyone make up a story about having taunted relatives after the death of a sister?
Because he’s known to have told some untruths. And one of the sisters allegedly told Sandy that he was busted by VPD that night, so he couldn’t have done it. People do love to exaggerate (or fabricate) their importance in this case.
You said this, and I agree with you:
There’s also the silent calls to Darlene’s relatives after BRS. For which the brother took credit years later, but he has credibility issues. It would be a stupid thing for him to lie about, since it’s potentially a huge clue, but people do love to exaggerate their involvement with this case.
He made the school bus threat in the Stine letter, which pretty much came out of nowhere. Though SF didn’t have school buses at the time. Also, I thought the argument against KQ was that he wouldn’t risk being seen by the witnesses again…
The other things were contacts supposedly made directly to victim survivors. I’m saying that with the confirmed victims, I’m not seeing Z having done that.
