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Episode 4 'Presidio Heights'

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morf13
(@morf13)
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Episode 4 of Zodiac Speaking ‘Presidio Heights’ is out now!

In early October 1969, the city of San Francisco remained untouched by the Zodiac Killer’s attacks to the North East of them in Solano and Napa Counties. That would all change on October 11th of that year when a cab driver named Paul Stine was murdered in his cab in the prestigious Presidio Heights section of the city. At first glance, it appears as if the dead cabbie found at the corner of Washington & Cherry Streets, was the victim of a robbery gone wrong. It wouldn’t take long for the Zodiac to take responsibility for the murder going as far as to provide proof of his involvement, and sending the residents of San Francisco into a panic.

https://www.spreaker.com/user/11688200/ … io-heights

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : April 10, 2021 7:19 pm
(@xcaliber)
Posts: 653
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Enjoyed it!

 
Posted : April 11, 2021 12:07 pm
(@xcaliber)
Posts: 653
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Morf, one point though. You commented that people reverse their opinion of the cab fingerprint — from it being legit to not being legit — when they latch onto a suspect who was eliminated via the fingerprint. I believe you pointed out that we need to look at the evidence objectively, without tailoring it to our POI’s.

However Richard asked you about your POI Ross Sullivan, pointing out that Sullivan stood 6’3 in shoes and that the Pelissetti-witness report had the suspect at 5’8. You then picked apart the ability of the witnesses at all 3 crime scenes to be able to determine height!

 
Posted : April 12, 2021 12:54 am
Richard Grinell
(@richard-grinell)
Posts: 717
Prominent Member
 

I think it was me that pointed out how it’s in the interest of people with suspects with fingerprints on file to rubbish the bloody fingerprint on the taxicab. It would be counterintuitive to argue for the partial fingerprint to be Zodiac, because it could potentially wipe away years of research. I watched a video of Mark Hewitt on Youtube years ago, that when asked if Arthur Leigh Allen was Zodiac, he stated that Arthur Leigh Allen was ruled out via handwriting, DNA and the bloody fingerprint on the taxicab. In advance of his book touting Theodore Kaczynski, whose fingerprints are readily available, those two Napa bookstore Youtube videos were taken down. Only Mark Hewitt can answer if this was the reason. I stand to be corrected, if proved otherwise. Do you know of any people with suspects (whose fingerprints are available for comparison) that have ever backed those bloody fingerprints as genuine?

The same goes for later contested Zodiac letters. Do you really believe somebody who has argued for a suspect a decade or more, would ever look at a possible Zodiac letter or card subsequent to their suspects death and view it objectively? They are faced with two options, [1] Rip up years of research on their suspect if the communication is reasonably argued as genuine, or [2] Rubbish the communication. What do you think they will choose? It is impossible to have a suspect you have had an undying commitment to for 10/20 years and view the case objectively in these instances. Ask anybody with a suspect to objectively create a geographic profile of the Zodiac Killer using the communications, crimes and telephone calls to pinpoint where Zodiac likely lived, and they will start with the conclusion first and work backwards towards it. I have nothing against people having suspects, but this is the inevitable product of having one.

https://www.zodiacciphers.com/

“I simply cannot accept that there are, on every story, two equal and logical sides to an argument.” Edward R. Murrow.

 
Posted : April 12, 2021 1:24 am
morf13
(@morf13)
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Morf, one point though. You commented that people reverse their opinion of the cab fingerprint — from it being legit to not being legit — when they latch onto a suspect who was eliminated via the fingerprint. I believe you pointed out that we need to look at the evidence objectively, without tailoring it to our POI’s.

However Richard asked you about your POI Ross Sullivan, pointing out that Sullivan stood 6’3 in shoes and that the Pelissetti-witness report had the suspect at 5’8. You then picked apart the ability of the witnesses at all 3 crime scenes to be able to determine height!

I didn’t pick apart anything, I merely point out that NONE of them were in ideal situation to identify someone’s height. Height is the least important physical clue to me. If Zodiac is identified tomorrow and he was 5ft8 or 6ft2, I wouldn’t be surprised. I think that ALL of the witnesses can agree that Z was to some degree overweight, stocky, heavy. That is the most important feature to me

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : April 12, 2021 1:55 am
(@cornbread)
Posts: 1
New Member
 

Morf, one point though. You commented that people reverse their opinion of the cab fingerprint — from it being legit to not being legit — when they latch onto a suspect who was eliminated via the fingerprint. I believe you pointed out that we need to look at the evidence objectively, without tailoring it to our POI’s.

However Richard asked you about your POI Ross Sullivan, pointing out that Sullivan stood 6’3 in shoes and that the Pelissetti-witness report had the suspect at 5’8. You then picked apart the ability of the witnesses at all 3 crime scenes to be able to determine height!

I didn’t pick apart anything, I merely point out that NONE of them were in ideal situation to identify someone’s height. Height is the least important physical clue to me. If Zodiac is identified tomorrow and he was 5ft8 or 6ft2, I wouldn’t be surprised. I think that ALL of the witnesses can agree that Z was to some degree overweight, stocky, heavy. That is the most important feature to me

One need only look at the Golden State Killer case to see this played out. His reported height was all over the board.

To again use DeAngelo as an example, even weight as an identifier (when looking at the series of crimes in toto) is perhaps suspect; a person’s weight can change quite dramatically over a relatively short period of time. I wouldn’t rule someone out (or in) based on either, but your mileage may vary.

 
Posted : April 12, 2021 5:34 am
(@xcaliber)
Posts: 653
Honorable Member
 

This is part of the reason the cops — and we Zodiac amateur sleuths — haven’t come close to solving the case in 50 years. We spend a lot of time explaining why a witness’s observations couldn’t possibly be accurate.

But if we at least TRY to accept the Pelissetti report as accurate, then most of the known suspects are eliminated. Rick Marshall fits. Any others?

 
Posted : April 12, 2021 6:53 am
(@tomvoigt)
Posts: 1352
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For all we know, the witness described Zodiac as being "average" in height and to Pelissetti, average = 5’8". My former friend Ed was 5’6" and always described his height as "average." Guess it made him feel better about it. So if a witness told Ed the perp was average in height, Ed would have logged it as 5’6".

By the way, those same witnesses — upon reflection — requested the wanted sketch to be changed. And the amended wanted poster also boosted the height and that had nothing to do with Fouke and Zelms. So sticking to 5’8" is not at all a sure thing.

Nobody described Zodiac as being tall and nobody described Zodiac as being short. And we don’t even know if the specific height estimates (5’8", 5’10" etc) were specifics given by the witnesses.

 
Posted : April 12, 2021 7:17 am
morf13
(@morf13)
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For all we know, the witness described Zodiac as being "average" in height and to Pelissetti, average = 5’8". My former friend Ed was 5’6" and always described his height as "average." Guess it made him feel better about it. So if a witness told Ed the perp was average in height, Ed would have logged it as 5’6".

By the way, those same witnesses — upon reflection — requested the wanted sketch to be changed. And the amended wanted poster also boosted the height and that had nothing to do with Fouke and Zelms. So sticking to 5’8" is not at all a sure thing.

Nobody described Zodiac as being tall and nobody described Zodiac as being short. And we don’t even know if the specific height estimates (5’8", 5’10" etc) were specifics given by the witnesses.

Well, 5ft8 was given by Mike Mageau, but again, I don’t think he was in best position to judge height.

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : April 12, 2021 4:48 pm
morf13
(@morf13)
Posts: 7527
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Topic starter
 

Deleted posts that have nothing to do with the podcast. Keep this thread about the podcast

There is more than one way to lose your life to a killer

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/
http://zodiackillersite.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/Morf13ZKS

 
Posted : April 13, 2021 3:02 am
Russ Thompson
(@russ-thompson)
Posts: 268
Reputable Member
 

Do either of the pod-casters have opinions as to why the cab was found a block farther West of the fare’s requested destination?

That was too much!

 
Posted : April 14, 2021 1:50 am
ConcernedCitizen
(@concernedcitizen)
Posts: 95
Trusted Member
 

Do either of the pod-casters have opinions as to why the cab was found a block farther West of the fare’s requested destination?

Guess they don’t…maybe Zodiac saw a man walking his dog?

 
Posted : April 15, 2021 9:23 am
(@tomvoigt)
Posts: 1352
Noble Member
 

I moved to San Francisco for a year back in 2004 to do Zodiac research. Before and after, I visited that city more than a hundred times. I’m qualified to say that in San Francisco, there’s where you’d like to park, and then there’s where you can actually park.

 
Posted : April 15, 2021 9:31 am
(@serya)
Posts: 63
Trusted Member
 

I lived there in San Francisco in the 80s and at that time it was said that at any one moment there were more cars than places to put them.

I just recall the evening before morning street sweepers came and did one side of the street, people were driving around late at night in their bathrobes trying to find a place on the other side to avoid a ticket. Owning a car there some times didn’t make a lot of sense.

https://borderlandjukebox.com/
https://offthebeatensoundtrack.com/

 
Posted : April 15, 2021 10:06 am
(@xcaliber)
Posts: 653
Honorable Member
 

You could typically park in Presidio Heights back then. It wasn’t (isn’t) densely populated and many residents have garages.

That said — that is a simple, interesting possibility — that the reason the killer may have had the cab travel the extra block was there was no available parking at Washington and Maple.

 
Posted : April 15, 2021 11:31 am
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